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Summer 2012 Free Agency: The 7 Signs of Semyonka (Part the 12th)

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Old
07-11-2012, 10:45 AM
  #351
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
because we expect they will improve when playing with our centers right? Unless they are Rick Nash apparently? The fact that Rick Nash is available for trade is buying low for him. Obviously not UFA Parise low, but Nash is a guy that used to be untouchable.
When I said "potential", I meant due to age. Sorry, I wasn't clear there.

Guys like Stewart or Setoguchi. Young, history of production, current low value, could benefit from a change of scenery.

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07-11-2012, 10:46 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Von Malkin View Post
Aren't you tired of shero buying low? You get what you pay for. Look at the garbage free agents he has signed. He's trying to find lightning in a bottle. His strategy is not working. We've had crappy wingers since 2008. Signing guys close to retirement or reclamation projects hasn't worked.
to be fair, it did once.

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07-11-2012, 10:47 AM
  #353
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Yes, just not at 7.8 mil a year (never mind the assets). He's the 4th highest paid player in the entire league.
I'd love Parise on Sid's wing, however that cap hit is pretty harsh for that long.
I think I'd rather have Nash at 7.8M until he is 34. Then Parise at 7.5M until he is 41. (assuming he doesn't retire before the end of his contract)

Also Rowdy, you are saying how Nash is almost over the hill (paraphrasing) but Parise and Nash are both 1984 birth years.

It's ludicrous to discount Nash's talent. Both have averaged 0.81 pts a game since they have come into the league, one on one of the worst teams in the league, the other on a perennial playoff team. This is further proven out by seeing that Nash's goal/game average is statistically better (.38 vs .42) and just by watching him play. Simply put he has to generate and finish a much bigger percentage of the points he gets.

Zach's biggest upside (outside his talent) was that he was a UFA and no assets were needed to be lost to get his services. I guarentee if Rick Nash was a UFA right now that he would get a similar or greater contact then what Zach got.

Nash has never had anything to really play for (lottery picks don't count). He has never played where the other team's Defense was entirely focused on him. Give him something to play for, and give him more space then he normally gets and he is north of 40G. Let alone the benefit it gives Sid as teams have to respect that winger and not just stack everyone up on him.

We won't get him, as everyone has said. Shero is not going to over pay for anyone. But he would do very very good things here in Pittsburgh if we did get him.

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07-11-2012, 10:47 AM
  #354
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07-11-2012, 10:48 AM
  #355
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didn't see if anyone posted this already WBS resigned Mormina
He's a good AHL Vet. He will help all the youoots.

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07-11-2012, 10:48 AM
  #356
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
When I said "potential", I meant due to age. Sorry, I wasn't clear there.

Guys like Stewart or Setoguchi. Young, history of production, current low value, could benefit from a change of scenery.
28 isn't old. And let's be honest, despite only going 3 hours down the road, Nash coming here would be just about the biggest possible change of scenery for pretty much anyone in the league. And he certainly has a history of production.

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07-11-2012, 10:48 AM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
If he can get 35 goals and 30 assists while drawing defensemen away from Sid I would be perfectly happy with him. And even if he's not a great hockey IQ guy, just the fact that he would be seeing less coverage would most likely bump his production. He wouldn't be the main focus of an entire defense. He might not even be going against the best defensive lines they have.
I guess we just disagree. I want more bang for my buck at 7.8 mil per.

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Originally Posted by Von Malkin View Post
Aren't you tired of shero buying low? You get what you pay for. Look at the garbage free agents he has signed. He's trying to find lightning in a bottle. His strategy is not working. We've had crappy wingers since 2008. Signing guys close to retirement or reclamation projects hasn't worked.
Actually, Shero has a First Team All-Star winger on account of buying low. So he's doing more than alright on that front, and I'm more than alright with him continuing.

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07-11-2012, 10:50 AM
  #358
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28 isn't old. And let's be honest, despite only going 3 hours down the road, Nash coming here would be just about the biggest possible change of scenery for pretty much anyone in the league. And he certainly has a history of production.
No, it's not, but I never argued it was. My point is that Nash's skills are not improving at 28.

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07-11-2012, 10:51 AM
  #359
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I keep seeing you bring this up. Why does this matter in the slightest?
Because I don't want to see the Penguins pay a huge price for a guy who doesn't want to be here, and will find a way to get traded again (just like he's doing in ANA but for different reasons). He or his agent, need to give some indication of the teams he likes besides Philly. So far he AND his Dad have pushed hard for Philly. Our chief rival. That should tell you something until we hear more from them. Bottom line is it's about risk and a guy who really would prefer to be playing for our chief rival, is a risk. Especially when paying a big price for him. Signing him on FA market would be a more tolerable risk because you can control the term and money and you're not giving assets away.

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07-11-2012, 10:54 AM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I guess we just disagree. I want more bang for my buck at 7.8 mil per.
I think you'd get it. That's what I think the low end would be. Whereas the low-end of what you get from Setoguchi or Stewart is a 40 point scorer or a guy getting scratched because he's lazy.

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Actually, Shero has a First Team All-Star winger on account of buying low. So he's doing more than alright on that front, and I'm more than alright with him continuing.
Alex Goligoski was a hell of an asset. Better than any we currently have to offer anyone. We didn't really buy low. Not in anything close to the same sense that trading for Setoguchi or Stewart would be buying low. Neal was a young up and coming wing for a young up and coming offensive defensemen. Setoguchi has been a struggling wing for what, 3 years now? Stewart was getting healthy scratched last year.

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07-11-2012, 10:54 AM
  #361
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
No, it's not, but I never argued it was. My point is that Nash's skills are not improving at 28.
but his production could. Stewart or Setoguchi will be lucky to ever have anywhere close to Nash's skills.

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07-11-2012, 10:55 AM
  #362
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I guess we just disagree. I want more bang for my buck at 7.8 mil per.



Actually, Shero has a First Team All-Star winger on account of buying low. So he's doing more than alright on that front, and I'm more than alright with him continuing.
Agreed. For a million less then Geno and Crosby, Nash has been putting up about 40 less points than them. That's just looking at the states and taking every other facet of the game out of the equation.

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07-11-2012, 10:58 AM
  #363
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but his production could. Stewart or Setoguchi will be lucky to ever have anywhere close to Nash's skills.
But they'll produce something similar to what he does at half his pay.

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07-11-2012, 11:00 AM
  #364
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But they'll produce something similar to what he does at half his pay.
Setoguchi, 4 years ago, outproduced Nash's bad season this year by 6 points. Stewart is at least closer with 2 seasons where you could call him comparable to a bad Rick Nash season. But again, he was getting benched this year for being lazy. He put up 30 points. Thirty.

There is very little reason to expect either of them to put up similar points to Nash with any regularity.

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07-11-2012, 11:01 AM
  #365
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Because I don't want to see the Penguins pay a huge price for a guy who doesn't want to be here, and will find a way to get traded again (just like he's doing in ANA but for different reasons). He or his agent, need to give some indication of the teams he likes besides Philly. So far he AND his Dad have pushed hard for Philly. Our chief rival. That should tell you something until we hear more from them. Bottom line is it's about risk and a guy who really would prefer to be playing for our chief rival, is a risk. Especially when paying a big price for him. Signing him on FA market would be a more tolerable risk because you can control the term and money and you're not giving assets away.
I think that's 100% manure, to be honest. He has no control over where he's traded. Players are moved to teams they don't want to be on in every trade.

Eric Tangradi is a diehard Flyers fan. Haven't seen any signs of that being an issue. Saying, "yeah, it'd be cool to play in Philly" on a local Philly/NJ radio station doesn't mean they're pushing hard for the Flyers.

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07-11-2012, 11:01 AM
  #366
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Because I don't want to see the Penguins pay a huge price for a guy who doesn't want to be here, and will find a way to get traded again (just like he's doing in ANA but for different reasons). He or his agent, need to give some indication of the teams he likes besides Philly. So far he AND his Dad have pushed hard for Philly. Our chief rival. That should tell you something until we hear more from them. Bottom line is it's about risk and a guy who really would prefer to be playing for our chief rival, is a risk. Especially when paying a big price for him. Signing him on FA market would be a more tolerable risk because you can control the term and money and you're not giving assets away.
I commented on this on the main board. That every one of our options have warts. Surprisingly Semin may have the least of them. Ryan does not want to be here and would gut us of prospects, picks and players off of our roster. Same with Nash except that he is almost making Crosby money. The main difference between Parise and Semin, at least as perceived by the rest of the league and when you get by obvious difference in play, is heart. One is the former (and likely future) Captain of his team. The other many would not let captain the Good Ship Lollipop. But he would not be asked to be a leader on the Pens; we have plenty of those already. He would just be asked to score a reasonable amount of goals on Crosby's wing over the course of the year.

With that said, Parise is not without his warts as well. In fact I would rather have Semin if Semin would sign for 3 or 4 years at $6 million per. Parise is going to be making $7.6 million for the next 13 years, until he is 41 years old. Parise is a fine player but he is no Jagr, and Jagr was a broken down man last year at 40 good for a couple months at the start of the year where he scored half of his 19 goals, and was a ghost of himself the rest of the year. And this was one of the best talents to ever play in the NHL. I am just imagining what Parise will bring at 40 years old. Granted the cap will have gone up, but for the last few years of that contract you cannot imagine you will be getting value.

So there is no wart free UFA that I see, at least this year. At the right price you can overlook Semin's warts easily. As long as you temper expectations you should get your cap value's worth with him.

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07-11-2012, 11:02 AM
  #367
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Nash is really good when he doesn't have to carry a line, let alone a team. For instance he usually looks great playing for Team Canada, and was fantastic shutting down Ovechkin at the Olympics (on a line with Thornton and Morrow IIRC). I can't blame him for not wanting to waste his prime or even entire career on such a hilariously incompetent franchise.

On the other hand, he took the money and security of that long contract. And Nash simply isn't a franchise player, yet gets paid like one and his GM expects a return like he was one. Bad situation all around.

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07-11-2012, 11:04 AM
  #368
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I think you'd get it. That's what I think the low end would be. Whereas the low-end of what you get from Setoguchi or Stewart is a 40 point scorer or a guy getting scratched because he's lazy.
And at a fraction of the cost, both asset and cap hit wise.

We don't need absolute sure-thing wingers (who are paid like it) with the two best centers in the world. Outside of Ryan (who would be a better fit with his RH shot, youth, and contract), we can afford to take fliers on skilled, cheap, young guys who have produced in the past and could blossom here.

Quote:
Alex Goligoski was a hell of an asset. Better than any we currently have to offer anyone. We didn't really buy low. Not in anything close to the same sense that trading for Setoguchi or Stewart would be buying low. Neal was a young up and coming wing for a young up and coming offensive defensemen. Setoguchi has been a struggling wing for what, 3 years now? Stewart was getting healthy scratched last year.
Well worth the risk considering the low relative cost, low potential risk, and possible upside.

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07-11-2012, 11:06 AM
  #369
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I think the Ryan-Philly connection is seriously overblown, to be totally honest. It's not like he said "I only want to play for Philly. I love that team and all others be damned!"

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“I heard Anaheim was a little overwhelmed with offers and they only took four seriously, but none of the teams were mentioned to me other than Philly,” Ryan said. “Everybody wants to play in your hometown, but it would be tough because a lot of expectations come when you're put into a situation like that. For me, if I'm moved, Philadelphia would be a very ideal and comfortable place for me.”
That's the exact quote. Someone brought up Philly to him, and he just mentioned how it would be cool to play for your hometown team, and that it would be a good place to end up. That's all I get out of that quote. There's absolutely nothing to say that he wouldn't say roughly the same thing about Pittsburgh if they were mentioned to him too.

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07-11-2012, 11:06 AM
  #370
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
And at a fraction of the cost, both asset and cap hit wise.

We don't need absolute sure-thing wingers (who are paid like it) with the two best centers in the world. Outside of Ryan (who would be a better fit with his RH shot, youth, and contract), we can afford to take fliers on skilled, cheap, young guys who have produced in the past and could blossom here.



Well worth the risk considering the low relative cost, low potential risk, and possible upside.
depends on the cost. I would rather know we are getting a great goal scorer to play on Sid's wing for the next 6 years. I would pay a lot to do that. Do we really want every season to depend on whether this year's winger actually pans out or not?

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07-11-2012, 11:07 AM
  #371
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I think the Ryan-Philly connection is seriously overblown, to be totally honest. It's not like he said "I only want to play for Philly. I love that team and all others be damned!"



That's the exact quote. Someone brought up Philly to him, and he just mentioned how it would be cool to play for your hometown team, and that it would be a good place to end up. That's all I get out of that quote.
agreed. Means nothing.

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07-11-2012, 11:08 AM
  #372
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but his production could. Stewart or Setoguchi will be lucky to ever have anywhere close to Nash's skills.
That's the one thing people are banking on. That the x-factor is linemates (even when the ones he had this year were hardly terrible). People conveniently forget that not too long ago Umberger was considered an ideal target linemate for our stars.

We don't need potential wingers to have Rick Nash's individual skill. We'd just need them to complement our centers well.

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07-11-2012, 11:08 AM
  #373
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I think the Ryan-Philly connection is seriously overblown, to be totally honest. It's not like he said "I only want to play for Philly. I love that team and all others be damned!"



That's the exact quote. Someone brought up Philly to him, and he just mentioned how it would be cool to play for your hometown team, and that it would be a good place to end up. That's all I get out of that quote.
Why couldn't he of grown up in pittsburgh

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07-11-2012, 11:09 AM
  #374
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Nash is really good when he doesn't have to carry a line, let alone a team. For instance he usually looks great playing for Team Canada, and was fantastic shutting down Ovechkin at the Olympics (on a line with Thornton and Morrow IIRC). I can't blame him for not wanting to waste his prime or even entire career on such a hilariously incompetent franchise.

On the other hand, he took the money and security of that long contract. And Nash simply isn't a franchise player, yet gets paid like one and his GM expects a return like he was one. Bad situation all around.
Played with Toews and Richards after he couldn't score with Sid.

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07-11-2012, 11:10 AM
  #375
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depends on the cost. I would rather know we are getting a great goal scorer to play on Sid's wing for the next 6 years. I would pay a lot to do that. Do we really want every season to depend on whether this year's winger actually pans out or not?
Every season? How many times have we actually gone out of our way to acquire a skilled young winger with potential?

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