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Old
07-10-2012, 03:01 PM
  #26
TOGuy14
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As a Leaf fan I would like to say I would be ALL over this kind of deal.

Weiss is young enough to have 4-5 good seasons in him.

He may not be an elite #1C but he would very likely be the best one on our team.

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07-10-2012, 03:03 PM
  #27
Tim Vezina Thomas
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Originally Posted by Barilkos Ghost View Post
On the whole I agree completely. I won't say it never happens, but it's unlikely. Chances are the Leafs need to be **** for another season and hope for a lottery pick to get what they really need. But there are trades out there, it's just a question of the best use of your assets.
Obviously its possible, but saying Weiss "isnt what we're after" is a bit shortsighted IMO. There isn't much opportunity to acquire that #1 center you're after!

Trades can happen obviously, but there are sooo many variables. Weiss is a top 20-30 center in the league, I think if they offered Weiss for Kadri and a small plus youd be silly not to take it IMO. Whats Kadri's ceiling? Maybe a BIT higher than what Weiss is now?

Sorry for the rant, I just think sitting back for that elusive #1 center is a bad strategy when you can upgrade your top six with Weiss.

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07-10-2012, 03:06 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by QMJHLfollower View Post
I never said that Weiss isn't good enough. Personally I would like to have Weiss, but I wouldn't trade Kadri for him. That's all. Kadri is a no go unless it's for a big overpayment.
What team would overpay for a 2009 draftee that hasnt earned a full time NHL job yet? Not saying hes a bust by any means, but he doesnt exactly fit the mold of someone you overpay for.

Also, what do you see Kadris ceiling as? I see him as a potential 60-70 point forward, which at this point would be a bit better of a player than Weiss.

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07-10-2012, 03:07 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
Obviously its possible, but saying Weiss "isnt what we're after" is a bit shortsighted IMO. There isn't much opportunity to acquire that #1 center you're after!

Trades can happen obviously, but there are sooo many variables. Weiss is a top 20-30 center in the league, I think if they offered Weiss for Kadri and a small plus youd be silly not to take it IMO. Whats Kadri's ceiling? Maybe a BIT higher than what Weiss is now?

Sorry for the rant, I just think sitting back for that elusive #1 center is a bad strategy when you can upgrade your top six with Weiss.
I never said Weiss wasn't what we're after, I said I'd prefer we deal Kadri in a package for a better version of what we're after.

If kadri and a small plus gets you Weiss, what does Kadri and a big plus (1st rounder?) have the potential to bring in?

I'm not trying to overvalue Kadri, I'm just saying that he is our most tradeable asset at the moment, and should be put to maximum use in any trade. I'm not sure Stephen Weiss is maximum use.

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07-10-2012, 03:13 PM
  #30
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Weiss would be the leafs best centre and they wont trade a bust and a 3rd liner for him?

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07-10-2012, 03:13 PM
  #31
Tim Vezina Thomas
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Originally Posted by Barilkos Ghost View Post
I never said Weiss wasn't what we're after, I said I'd prefer we deal Kadri in a package for a better version of what we're after.

If kadri and a small plus gets you Weiss, what does Kadri and a big plus (1st rounder?) have the potential to bring in?

I'm not trying to overvalue Kadri, I'm just saying that he is our most tradeable asset at the moment, and should be put to maximum use in any trade. I'm not sure Stephen Weiss is maximum use.
Wasn't directing the "you're" towards you, just a general comment.

Trades don't work like that either. You can't just add a better pick and assume youll be able to acquire a better player because of it.

Kadri + 3rd for Weiss doesnt automatically become Kadri + 1st for Spezza because of a better 2nd asset. First line centers that fit your bill aren't readily available.

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07-10-2012, 03:15 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by The Roffler View Post
Weiss would be the leafs best centre and they wont trade a bust and a 3rd liner for him?
Kadri isn't a bust, but I agree that they should make that trade. Kadris ceiling is a bit better than Weiss is right now IMO, who knows if he'll ever reach it.

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07-10-2012, 03:15 PM
  #33
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No one that is available, so we'll keep our prospect.
The reason no one is available is because no one would trade their #1 centre in a package deal where the main piece was Kadri. No one.

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07-10-2012, 03:15 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
What team would overpay for a 2009 draftee that hasnt earned a full time NHL job yet? Not saying hes a bust by any means, but he doesnt exactly fit the mold of someone you overpay for.

Also, what do you see Kadris ceiling as? I see him as a potential 60-70 point forward, which at this point would be a bit better of a player than Weiss.
Yeah, no will overpay, that's why we weill keep him. What I meant was, if he's on a package for Getzlaf (not hapening, just an example), I'd trade him, but besides that we keep him.

I see his ceiling the same as you, 60-70 points. The trade is good, and the value is there for Weiss, I don't think that Kadri will be a lot better than Weiss, he'll probably be in the same categories, that's not because of that that I wouldn't do the deal. It's simply because we need to keep our first round pick (espacially top 10 one), and espacially one who we take our time to develop, and one that fit our organisation need.

(Sorry my english is pretty bad, I'm not sure if I explained my point well).

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07-10-2012, 03:26 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by QMJHLfollower View Post
Yeah, no will overpay, that's why we weill keep him. What I meant was, if he's on a package for Getzlaf (not hapening, just an example), I'd trade him, but besides that we keep him.

I see his ceiling the same as you, 60-70 points. The trade is good, and the value is there for Weiss, I don't think that Kadri will be a lot better than Weiss, he'll probably be in the same categories, that's not because of that that I wouldn't do the deal. It's simply because we need to keep our first round pick (espacially top 10 one), and espacially one who we take our time to develop, and one that fit our organisation need.

(Sorry my english is pretty bad, I'm not sure if I explained my point well).
Nah your English is fine, no worries.

I see your point in keeping Kadri in hopes of another deal coming along, but MY point is those centers aren't readily available! If you could acquire a 1B center like Weiss youd have him and Grabo as your two top six centers, not terrible by any means.

I just think hanging onto prospects in hopes of a #1 center savior comes along is terrible asset management. Trading Kadri for Weiss now would improve your team for the short term and theres a good possibility for the long term as well.

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07-10-2012, 03:34 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
Nah your English is fine, no worries.

I see your point in keeping Kadri in hopes of another deal coming along, but MY point is those centers aren't readily available! If you could acquire a 1B center like Weiss youd have him and Grabo as your two top six centers, not terrible by any means.

I just think hanging onto prospects in hopes of a #1 center savior comes along is terrible asset management. Trading Kadri for Weiss now would improve your team for the short term and theres a good possibility for the long term as well.
Yeah, fair enough.

But you get my point. I'm not expecting Kadri to be our future first line center, but a solid top 6 winger skilled pest with who can scores 60 points would be nice to have.

We traded two first round pick to your team, and you know the result as well as me. (Kessel is AWESOME for us, he's a building block and I'm a big fan, but Seguin and Hamilton are two building block). We traded Rask to you, that didn't turn out too well. We traded Tlusty very fast, I know he isn't that awesome and he's nothing to cry about, but he's still a decent 2nd/3rd line tweener. Now we just tradeded Schenn already (although I wanted to keep him, I'm happy with the return (another top pick)). So I think we should hang onto Kadri, he's our guy!

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07-10-2012, 03:40 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Dick Whitman View Post
The reason no one is available is because no one would trade their #1 centre in a package deal where the main piece was Kadri. No one.
Incredible how many times I hear this "Kadri as the centre of a deal" argument, whereas Leafs fans know FULL WELL that Kadri won't be the centre point of a deal, more like the usual good prospect that is added to picks/players to land the kind of quality centre that we need.

Don't get me wrong I like Weiss too, but I like Kadri very much also and I'm sick of all of our good prospects being shunted out for immediate help. Finally this organization takes a bit of time developing our prospects and getting a core of young players that can help us become a contender (as we are actually doing right now) and I'd rather not trade away one of our top 2 prospects for a 29 year old that is at best a marginal upgrade and only signed for a one more season where we won't even be competitive.

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07-10-2012, 03:44 PM
  #38
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Personally, I don't see how the Leafs wouldn't make this trade. I know Leafs fans always wanna hold onto Kadri in the death clutch, but this is a good deal for them. That being said, I think Florida stays away from Weiss for Kadri. Toronto would have to add pieces to bring this to close value, and I don't see why Florida has any motivation to move Weiss unless it's for a proven piece that can help their older core win soon. Weiss provides much more immediate help for Florida than Kadri does, Florida would be losing out in this deal.

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07-10-2012, 04:01 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
You guys are getting ridiculous with your "1st line center" needs. If Weiss isn't good enough, who are you going to get??? Teams dont just give away their #1 centers. You say the Leafs dont need a "60 point center." Do you know how many centers in the league got 70+ points last year? NINE. In the entire LEAGUE.

Guess how many centers there were last year that went above 80 points.....FIVE. Five centers in the entire league.

Who exactly are you looking to attain? Who fits the bill? Better yet, what team has that number 1 center you want and would be willing to trade him? I just dont understand, the Bruins won the Cup with two 60-69 point centers in the top six, Weiss/Grabo would be comparable to Bergy/Krejci point wise.
Just to clarify from my point of view, I'd also be willing to trade Kadri for a center with 70+ point potential. It doesn't need to be someone who's done it before.

There's also a lot more Centers that are more than capable of putting up 70+ points that didn't do it last year. Centers outside of those top 9 with 70+ points that would be considered legit #1 centers or potential #1 centers include:

Seguin
Datsyuk
Richards
Couture
Bergeron
Toews
Getzlaf
Crosby
J. Staal
Lecavalier
Kessler
Richards
Duchene
Nugent Hopkins
Stastny
Desharnais
etc

****For the record, I'm not saying these players would be traded for any package around Kadri, I'm just saying they weren't included in your "only 9" list of centers that fit the bill.****

I'm sure there's some that could be argued on or off that list, but point is when you say "Only 9 players!!!" it's not exactly telling the full story. There's many more than 9 that would fit the bill.

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07-10-2012, 04:08 PM
  #40
Tim Vezina Thomas
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Originally Posted by BallHockeyLegend View Post
Just to clarify from my point of view, I'd also be willing to trade Kadri for a center with 70+ point potential. It doesn't need to be someone who's done it before.

There's also a lot more Centers that are more than capable of putting up 70+ points that didn't do it last year. Centers outside of those top 9 with 70+ points that would be considered legit #1 centers or potential #1 centers include:

Seguin - Not getting traded
Datsyuk - - Not getting traded
Richards - Tried to get him and failed
Couture - Not getting traded
Bergeron- Not getting traded
Toews - Not getting traded
Getzlaf - I expect many "Getzlaf is going to sign in Toronto" like Brad Richards, but probably not going to get traded and/or sign with the Leafs.
Crosby - Not getting traded
J. Staal - Not getting traded, in fact, just re signed to a major deal
Lecavalier - Been offered before on HF, Leafs fans dont seem particularly enthralled.
Kessler - Not getting traded
Richards - Not getting traded
Duchene - Possibility I guess? Wont get Duchene unless something big going back (not Kadri, MacArthur and a 2nd).
Nugent Hopkins - Not getting traded
Stastny - Same as Vinny
Desharnais - Not getting traded

etc

****For the record, I'm not saying these players would be traded for any package around Kadri, I'm just saying they weren't included in your "only 9" list of centers that fit the bill.****

I'm sure there's some that could be argued on or off that list, but point is when you say "Only 9 players!!!" it's not exactly telling the full story. There's many more than 9 that would fit the bill.
You were saying?

The vast majority of players you listed wouldnt get traded any time soon.

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07-10-2012, 04:11 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Stu View Post
Incredible how many times I hear this "Kadri as the centre of a deal" argument, whereas Leafs fans know FULL WELL that Kadri won't be the centre point of a deal, more like the usual good prospect that is added to picks/players to land the kind of quality centre that we need.

Don't get me wrong I like Weiss too, but I like Kadri very much also and I'm sick of all of our good prospects being shunted out for immediate help. Finally this organization takes a bit of time developing our prospects and getting a core of young players that can help us become a contender (as we are actually doing right now) and I'd rather not trade away one of our top 2 prospects for a 29 year old that is at best a marginal upgrade and only signed for a one more season where we won't even be competitive.
I think you mean the sane Leaf posters know that. A lot suggest otherwise.

And Weiss is a marginal upgrade? Of who? Bozak could easily slip to 3rd line center and your center depth at that point would be very good.

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07-10-2012, 04:14 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
You were saying?

The vast majority of players you listed wouldnt get traded any time soon.
I never said they would. They're about as likely to be traded as the 9 centers from last year who scored over 70 points. My reason for posting them, as I said, was not that they're on the trade block but rather to point out that first line centers or centers with potential to be first line centers aren't as rare as you made them out to be.

You were saying? Lol.

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07-10-2012, 04:28 PM
  #43
Tim Vezina Thomas
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Originally Posted by BallHockeyLegend View Post
I never said they would. They're about as likely to be traded as the 9 centers from last year who scored over 70 points. My reason for posting them, as I said, was not that they're on the trade block but rather to point out that first line centers or centers with potential to be first line centers aren't as rare as you made them out to be.

You were saying? Lol.
Oh please, dont get cute. Weiss has 70+ point potential too.

The point I was trying to make (I thought it was a given, I guess not), was the first line centers you guys are going after are often untradeable, as evidenced by Vinny, Stasny, and Duchene as the only three possibilities in your list (two of which you guys repeatedly trash and decline).

I just don't know hwo you guys are going to attain a center when your perfect center is most likely untradeable and unattainable, which I why I don't understand holding onto Kadri when you could potentially get Weiss. Hed upgrade your top six immediately.

Whos a legit option for you? No one has given any possible names yet.

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07-10-2012, 04:37 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
Oh please, dont get cute. Weiss has 70+ point potential too.

The point I was trying to make (I thought it was a given, I guess not), was the first line centers you guys are going after are often untradeable, as evidenced by Vinny, Stasny, and Duchene as the only three possibilities in your list (two of which you guys repeatedly trash and decline).

I just don't know hwo you guys are going to attain a center when your perfect center is most likely untradeable and unattainable, which I why I don't understand holding onto Kadri when you could potentially get Weiss. Hed upgrade your top six immediately.

Whos a legit option for you? No one has given any possible names yet.
Weiss 70 point potential? That's a long shot considering 61 is his best career year. It's not impossible but at 29 I doubt he has a lot of improvement. 70 points would be much more a fluke than any consistent production.

First line guys we are going after? Please provide sources to this (I don't remember Burke ever saying we were after Duchene or Vinny, only Brad Richards who turned us down). Just because a better option isn't available for us right not doesn't mean we should make this trade. Bozak has been fine, Grabo is fine as 2nd and we just got McClement for 3rd line.

Who is a legit option? Regardless, I'd rather not trade Kadri who has shown good improvement and, again, who is one of our best prospects for a guy with ONE year left on his contract when we are a bottom feeder. If our team was getting us into the playoffs and making some noise then maybe I would make a move like this, but this does not help us long term and out short term goals are not to make trades like this.

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07-10-2012, 04:38 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by The Roffler View Post
Weiss would be the leafs best centre and they wont trade a bust and a 3rd liner for him?
Bozak just came off a 47 point season (At least 50 if he played the full season). Yeah he does get to ride with Lupul and Kessel but by no means was he out of place. He's got a lot of tools both offensively and defensively.

Kadri is 21 and has shown flashes of brilliance with the Leafs. He is nowhere near bust status and still has a very good shot of making the NHL sooner than later.

Weiss is a perennial 50-60 point player. Nice consistency, sure, but how on earth is a 10 point upgrade on Bozak worth a prospect like Kadri as well as a +?

Not to mention the jury is still out on Bozak. His first season he scored 27 points in 37 games, a pace matching the great Stephen Weiss (avg out to 60 points in a full season). His next season was a sophomore slump where he still managed 15 goals. This season he came back up to a respectable 47 (50 full season). What's not to say he adds on another 10 points with another year in the NHL?

Don't misjudge the Leafs here, it's not that they are weak at centre. The problem is they have two 2nd line centres (Grabovski, Bozak) as well as two potentially-when-healthy 2nd line centres (Connolly, Lombardi) and no sure-fire, number 1.

Weiss is a number 2.

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07-10-2012, 04:39 PM
  #46
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No thanks. Weiss is a second line centre. We need a #1 or it's not worth giving up anything.

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07-10-2012, 04:39 PM
  #47
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I'm still waiting for the OP to see where Weiss SAID he would waive for the Leafs.

Leafs have nothing the Panthers need. We don't even need your Top 5-8 pick where you will likely end up again. Panthers prospect cupboards are loaded at every position right now.

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07-10-2012, 04:40 PM
  #48
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I'm still waiting for the OP to see where Weiss SAID he would waive for the Leafs.

Leafs have nothing the Panthers need. We don't even need your Top 5-8 pick where you will likely end up again. Panthers prospect cupboards are loaded at every position right now.
Bleacher Report said it about a year and a half ago...

Also we aren't giving up Weiss, we don't want Kadri, just like you don't want Weiss. Pretty useless trade if you ask me.

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07-10-2012, 04:43 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Barilkos Ghost View Post
Do you want me to list every centre that's better than Weiss, or what?

Weiss is a good player, but for me, if I'm trading Kadri in a package for a 1st line centre, I try to go for someone whose best season didn't top out at 61 points.

Kadri and Kulemin was the reported asking price from Philly for Richards, which Burke for some reason turned down. Start there and add accordingly, I suppose.
This is bull. Kadri and Kulemin don't get Richards in a trade. Not even close.

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07-10-2012, 04:47 PM
  #50
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This is bull. Kadri and Kulemin don't get Richards in a trade. Not even close.
That was reported by Bob Mckenzie.

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