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Ruff " Its a little bit of a gamble but we all liked what we saw"

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Old
07-10-2012, 08:44 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
that's a completely accurate statement

Ennis is terrible defensively... seriously why is it so hard to to criticize the talent around here...
If Ennis can elevate his defensive game to get close to Gerbe, that would be a helluva boon for the Sabres. It's an area he can grow in that would benefit the team greatly.

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07-10-2012, 08:44 PM
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Can someone tell me when being a top line center meant you no longer get favorable matchups??? Happens all throughout the league people.

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07-10-2012, 08:46 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakon View Post
We'll never know what any of these players are capable of at any position if we're too afraid to try them there.

Every year will be "Aw, man. If only Ennis had one more year to ease into it and learn from (insert vet center from FA).

Let the kid play. Just if he stumbles, for the love of god, don't give him the Adam treatment.
Please explain "the Adam treatment". The kid was given a good amount of time to try and correct his game, and he deteriorated and got worse - to the point of unbearability.

Adam was his own problem last year. If you want to veil shots at Ruff, make them accurate ones.

And if you are going to say you weren't talking about the overall demotion, you were talking about removing him from centering Poms and TV, spare us both the time. Adam was treated like every other forward on the team...when your line hits a rut, it gets juggled.

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07-10-2012, 08:47 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
this is pretty well said, and about where I stand. But clearly for different reasons. I'm not worried about Ennis...I'm worried about Hodgson and the lack of depth if Ott plays wing.
What worries you about him? Just his defensive game/lack of speed?

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07-10-2012, 08:53 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by kirby11 View Post
What worries you about him? Just his defensive game/lack of speed?
"worried about him" is even too harsh. More concerned about him than Ennis is more apropos. I don't dislike his game, I just believe that Ennis is more suited for this imminent role increase than he is. Ennis has been around longer, knows the system, and has proven he can be an asset for us in some form (even if worst case scenario happens, and he has to go back to wing)...we know he can play wing and create and produce and make us better.

Even when he wasn't creating offensively, something impressed me about Hodgson. I think he will be fine, too. But he is more of an unknown as a player here than Ennis. Not as a center...they're about equal in that sense HERE.

The general lack of a more proven guy in the mix - anywhere in the mix - bothers me about this coming season. Doesn't have to be a top liner, just another older body who has years of experience down the middle. But I am beyond more than willing to try the two of them with the ultimate goal understandably a few years away.

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07-10-2012, 08:57 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
Please explain "the Adam treatment". The kid was given a good amount of time to try and correct his game, and he deteriorated and got worse - to the point of unbearability.

Adam was his own problem last year. If you want to veil shots at Ruff, make them accurate ones.

And if you are going to say you weren't talking about the overall demotion, you were talking about removing him from centering Poms and TV, spare us both the time. Adam was treated like every other forward on the team...when your line hits a rut, it gets juggled.
I really don't remember him being given that much time. At least not playing on a line or given minutes to actually work out of a slump or be productive. You don't see Stafford on the 4th line and eventually the AHL when he does his month-long disappearing act. And I guess the kicker was we were actually hard up for centers at the time (this being before the Hodgson trade, Grigs/Girgs, and Ennis's switch) and the kid still couldn't catch a break. If I recall correctly, he was being given John Scott style minutes in some games.

Reading interviews, it sounded like Lindy didn't really communicate with Adam much during that process either (hmm... Boyes said something strikingly similar to that, didn't he?).

Nothing about it screams "this is how a young struggling player should be handled". But hey, we're all entitled to our opinions.


Last edited by Dreakon: 07-10-2012 at 09:04 PM.
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07-10-2012, 09:01 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
If Ennis can elevate his defensive game to get close to Gerbe, that would be a helluva boon for the Sabres. It's an area he can grow in that would benefit the team greatly.
if gerbe can elevate his offensive game to get close to ennis, that would be awesome too...

i wont be holding my breath on either scenario

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07-10-2012, 09:04 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
If Ennis can elevate his defensive game to get close to Gerbe, that would be a helluva boon for the Sabres. It's an area he can grow in that would benefit the team greatly.
Ruff has had success developing PK'ers and two way players. It's definitely a two way street and I think that Ennis has the type of desire and attitude to make it work. It won't happen over night, but I do think that the potential is there.

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07-10-2012, 09:05 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakon View Post
I really don't remember him being given that much time. At least not playing on a line or given minutes to actually work out of a slump or be productive. You don't see Stafford on the 4th line and eventually the AHL when he does his month-long disappearing act. And I guess the kicker was we were actually hard up for centers at the time (this being before the Hodgson trade, Grigs/Girgs, and Ennis's switch) and the kid still couldn't catch a break. If I recall correctly, he was being given John Scott style minutes in some games.

Reading interviews, it sounded like Lindy didn't really communicate with Adam much during that process either (hmm... Boyes said something strikingly similar to that, didn't he?).

Nothing about it screams "this is how a young struggling player should be handled". But hey, we're all entitled to our opinions.
Wasn't Adam pointless in his final 20 games before being sent down? 20 games is a considerable amount of time...

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07-10-2012, 09:06 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
if gerbe can elevate his offensive game to get close to ennis, that would be awesome too...

i wont be holding my breath on either scenario
I think Ennis getting smarter with the puck in his own zone is probably the likely option. He's still going to dangle and there will still be moments of frustration akin to when Max used to run out of space, but puck security would help. He's going to have to figure out how to use his hands and feet to jump passing lanes and turn the puck quickly moreso than getting into physical contests low. I imagine someone like Spezza is going to be a big test for Ennis...

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07-10-2012, 09:09 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
Wasn't Adam pointless in his final 20 games before being sent down? 20 games is a considerable amount of time...
I'd be curious to see the average ice time he got in those final 20 games. Really, I'm not sure where to look for it.

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07-10-2012, 09:11 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
It's a small sample size, and we are now talking about Ennis in a different defensive role than the sample we have seen. One that puts him in more places....something I personally think he will get a good grasp of.
I've seen them both play defense for 140 something games, so I don't think there's an issue of sample size. Gerbe is better than Ennis defensively. There's no doubt about that. Has nothing to do with how good Ennis might be able to become defensively as like everyone he has the capacity to at least be adequate.

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07-10-2012, 09:11 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakon View Post
I'd be curious to see the average ice time he got in those final 20 games. Really, I'm not sure where to look for it.
You can get the splits off NHL.com

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07-10-2012, 09:12 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Dreakon View Post
I'd be curious to see the average ice time he got in those final 20 games. Really, I'm not sure where to look for it.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play.../gamelog/2012/

He was getting between 10-13 minutes most of the games, which is lower than the 13-15 he was getting earlier.

But pointless over that span is still pretty bad. I mean, not even lucking into a point...

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07-10-2012, 09:14 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by cardiffgiant View Post
Ruff has had success developing PK'ers and two way players. It's definitely a two way street and I think that Ennis has the type of desire and attitude to make it work. It won't happen over night, but I do think that the potential is there.
Yep, and we saw it a bit late in the year as he used Hodgson in an expanded role compared to how Vancouver was using him -- PKing, late d-zone draws, that sort of thing.

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07-10-2012, 09:16 PM
  #116
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The ultimate irony of the debating in this thread is that Ruff doesn't say he plans to use Ennis in a more defneisve role. All he says is that he hopes Ennis can pick up a good portion of Roy's minutes. Isn't this the same board that for years has been lauding for the day Ruff gives his offensive standouts more time to produce?

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07-10-2012, 09:17 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
"worried about him" is even too harsh. More concerned about him than Ennis is more apropos. I don't dislike his game, I just believe that Ennis is more suited for this imminent role increase than he is. Ennis has been around longer, knows the system, and has proven he can be an asset for us in some form (even if worst case scenario happens, and he has to go back to wing)...we know he can play wing and create and produce and make us better.

Even when he wasn't creating offensively, something impressed me about Hodgson. I think he will be fine, too. But he is more of an unknown as a player here than Ennis. Not as a center...they're about equal in that sense HERE.

The general lack of a more proven guy in the mix - anywhere in the mix - bothers me about this coming season. Doesn't have to be a top liner, just another older body who has years of experience down the middle. But I am beyond more than willing to try the two of them with the ultimate goal understandably a few years away.
Gotcha. and I agree with the last part, we're really relying on the kids as things stand right now.

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07-10-2012, 09:19 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
I think Ennis getting smarter with the puck in his own zone is probably the likely option. He's still going to dangle and there will still be moments of frustration akin to when Max used to run out of space, but puck security would help. He's going to have to figure out how to use his hands and feet to jump passing lanes and turn the puck quickly moreso than getting into physical contests low. I imagine someone like Spezza is going to be a big test for Ennis...
im worried more about his smarts/awareness when he doesn't have the puck... and his strength...

see game tying goal against vs philly in game 81 for a perfect example

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07-10-2012, 09:20 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play.../gamelog/2012/

He was getting between 10-13 minutes most of the games, which is lower than the 13-15 he was getting earlier.

But pointless over that span is still pretty bad. I mean, not even lucking into a point...
I'm surprised, just from watching I would've said he could've been less than 10 minutes a game at the time.

Either way, in a year (especially at that point in the year) when the entire team was playing miserable hockey... possibly the worst hockey in recent history... it's hard to pin it on Adam. And two accounts now in the last year of Ruff not communicating with some of his struggling players?

I'm not the biggest anti-Ruff guy in the world, but I just don't like how he handled Adam. I can get ignoring Boyes, he's an older vet who probably wouldn't be back and probably wouldn't have appreciated someone looking over his shoulder all the time. But Adam's just a kid, a Sabres prospect and plays a position of need. Not sure why you just watch as he crashes and burns.


Last edited by Dreakon: 07-10-2012 at 09:29 PM.
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07-10-2012, 09:21 PM
  #120
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I'd be happy if Ennis could get to Briere's level defensively first, then worry about going from there.

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07-10-2012, 09:29 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Dreakon View Post
I really don't remember him being given that much time.
He went 20 games without a point before he was finally pulled from the lineup. His last point was mid December and his last game was the first week of February. IMO, that's a lot of time to give an offensive minded rookie.

Quote:
At least not playing on a line or given minutes to actually work out of a slump or be productive. You don't see Stafford on the 4th line and eventually the AHL when he does his month-long disappearing act.
I'm note a Stafford fan, but I don't believe that he's ever had a 20 game pointless streak, and definitely didn't have one when the team could still send him down without having to clear waivers.


Quote:
And I guess the kicker was we were actually hard up for centers at the time (this being before the Hodgson trade, Grigs/Girgs, and Ennis's switch) and the kid still couldn't catch a break. If I recall correctly, he was being given John Scott style minutes in some games.
The problem is that Adam was new at center. He worked well at center when he, Vanek, and Pominville were all rolling. He wasn't great at draws and fell short on his defensive responsibilities. He wound up in a position where he either needed to produce in the top 6 or be sent down. He didn't have the physical or defensive strengths to contribute from the bottom 6.

Quote:
Reading interviews, it sounded like Lindy didn't really communicate with Adam much during that process either (hmm... Boyes said something strikingly similar to that, didn't he?).

Nothing about it screams "this is how a young struggling player should be handled". But hey, we're all entitled to our opinions.
The communication thing is puzzling. Was it a lack of communication or was he just not getting it? Either (or both) are worrisome.

And Boyes... he's played 560 games over 9 years... how much 1:1 communication should a veteran like that really need from their head coach?

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07-10-2012, 09:36 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by cardiffgiant View Post
I'm note a Stafford fan, but I don't believe that he's ever had a 20 game pointless streak, and definitely didn't have one when the team could still send him down without having to clear waivers.
Peeking around NHL.com, I'd say he definitely had some rough stretches in 09-10. Maybe not 20 games pointless, but I don't think the team as a whole lost 12 straight road games at any point either.

I think it's easier to luck into a point or two when the team around you is actually able to step up for a little bit. Instead they fell apart just as Adam did. Hard. An almost record breaking level of hard.

If anything sending him down to the AHL could've been saving him from deteriorating further on the worst team in the NHL, but I do believe that Adam's confidence was shot at that point and I'm not ruling out that Lindy probably didn't do much to help.

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Originally Posted by cardiffgiant View Post
And Boyes... he's played 560 games over 9 years... how much 1:1 communication should a veteran like that really need from their head coach?
Apparently enough that the lack of it was worth mentioning on the way out.


Last edited by Dreakon: 07-10-2012 at 09:42 PM.
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07-10-2012, 10:05 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Husko View Post
The ultimate irony of the debating in this thread is that Ruff doesn't say he plans to use Ennis in a more defneisve role. All he says is that he hopes Ennis can pick up a good portion of Roy's minutes. Isn't this the same board that for years has been lauding for the day Ruff gives his offensive standouts more time to produce?
Yep. But they have to be two way players, damnit.

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07-10-2012, 10:05 PM
  #124
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I am a little confused as well because it appeared that some of the FES lines success came from playing against favorable match-ups and protected shifts. By making them the top line you can say good-bye to that advantage.

EDIT: Let's say that Lindy is trying to bring grit to each line to open up the ice. What does the 2nd line look like?

Vanek - Ott - Hodgson

Pommers on 3rd line?

I'm confused. I like the concept, but with the current players I am not sure. Tropp?
Foligno ennis Pominville
Vanek Hodgson Ott
Gerbe Leino Stafford
Ellis Mccormick Kaleta

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07-10-2012, 10:05 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
im worried more about his smarts/awareness when he doesn't have the puck... and his strength...

see game tying goal against vs philly in game 81 for a perfect example
Strength is a definite area of concern. He's a 160 lbs player that relies on his reflexes, timing, and speed. He won't be able to build muscle quickly without adversely impacting his game, and other teams will adjust their defense to him if he starts to have a lot of success.

There are bound to be size comparisons with Gerbe, but a guy like Gerbe can play with limited size because he is strong and tenacious. Line mates and match ups will be important as Ennis adjusts his game to tighter defense.

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