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Free Agency & General Offseason Discussion Thread: Part III - The Brenden Morrow Saga

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08-06-2012, 08:52 PM
  #901
CanadianHockey
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Originally Posted by Manked View Post
While I see what you're saying, I think the whole playoff clutch thing is a BIT overrated.

While there are people who are constantly clutch and really deserve that label (Jordan Eberle WJC's, etc, etc, etc), I feel that the majority of players that do well in the playoffs are more 1 or 2 hit wonders in the Post Season because they hit their stride, and it doesn't translate to constant playoff success.

See:

-Joel Ward
-Johan Franzen (had 3 great ones, last 2 have been ******)
-Jamie Langenbrunner

The list goes on.
To be fair, he got cranked in Game 2 of round 1 in 2011 and missed time for that, probably came back early to help the team. Last year he had a back injury at the end of the season and might not have been 100% for the Wings playoffs.

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08-06-2012, 08:56 PM
  #902
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Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
To be fair, he got cranked in Game 2 of round 1 in 2011 and missed time for that, probably came back early to help the team. Last year he had a back injury at the end of the season and might not have been 100% for the Wings playoffs.
I want numbers at the end of the day.

He's horrible in the season, and he hasn't helped in the playoffs for 2 years. Not my fault he's injured.

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08-06-2012, 09:04 PM
  #903
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Originally Posted by Manked View Post
I want numbers at the end of the day.

He's horrible in the season, and he hasn't helped in the playoffs for 2 years. Not my fault he's injured.
Gaborik didn't put up points this playoff so he must be ****, too. What a choker.

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08-06-2012, 09:14 PM
  #904
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Originally Posted by Manked View Post
I want numbers at the end of the day.

He's horrible in the season, and he hasn't helped in the playoffs for 2 years. Not my fault he's injured.
re: Clowe, he has outperformed Michalek every single playoff of his career. Has 27 more points in 21 more games. 2.5x more points in about 1.5x the games. Despite consistently playing a lesser role on his team.

Clowe might not be a playoff beast, but Michalek is definitely near the level of playoff failure.

NOTE: I like Michalek much more than Clowe.

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08-06-2012, 09:20 PM
  #905
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manked View Post
While I see what you're saying, I think the whole playoff clutch thing is a BIT overrated.

While there are people who are constantly clutch and really deserve that label (Jordan Eberle WJC's, etc, etc, etc), I feel that the majority of players that do well in the playoffs are more 1 or 2 hit wonders in the Post Season because they hit their stride, and it doesn't translate to constant playoff success.

See:

-Joel Ward
-Johan Franzen (had 3 great ones, last 2 have been ******)
-Jamie Langenbrunner

The list goes on.
I hear what you're saying, but in addition to scoring some pretty clutch goals, Clowe seems to elevate his game on numerous levels during the playoffs. I know it's a pretty broad term, but in my eyes he's a true playoff warrior. He always finishes his checks, he stands up for his team mates, and he leaves everything on the ice. So even if his efforts don't show up on the stats sheets, he's still a valuable player to have on your team during the months of April, May, and June.

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08-06-2012, 09:26 PM
  #906
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Originally Posted by OgieOglethorpe View Post
I hear what you're saying, but in addition to scoring some pretty clutch goals, Clowe seems to elevate his game on numerous levels during the playoffs. I know it's a pretty broad term, but in my eyes he's a true playoff warrior. He always finishes his checks, he stands up for his team mates, and he leaves everything on the ice. So even if his efforts don't show up on the stats sheets, he's still a valuable player to have on your team during the months of April, May, and June.
Agreed, but not at the cost of Michalek.

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08-06-2012, 09:34 PM
  #907
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Originally Posted by Manked View Post
Agreed, but not at the cost of Michalek.
Oh I agree with that. This wasn't a Clowe vs Michalek debate for me, it was more a commentary on Clowe's ability to elevate his game when it matters most.

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08-06-2012, 09:37 PM
  #908
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Oh I agree with that. This wasn't a Clowe vs Michalek debate for me, it was more a commentary on Clowe's ability to elevate his game when it matters most.
Then for sure, everything you said was spot on.

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08-06-2012, 09:58 PM
  #909
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Well to be fair to Michalek, the Rangers did their best to shut down the Spezza line and of course EK, and they were quite effective. Lundqvist was also pretty tough to beat as I recall...

Points are great, but they don't always tell the whole story.

Michalek didn't play bad, or disappear, he (and the rest of the team) just couldn't get enough pucks past Lundqvist.

That's not choking.


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Old
08-06-2012, 10:23 PM
  #910
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Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
Gaborik didn't put up points this playoff so he must be ****, too. What a choker.
Really?

This response is only evident that you either:

a) Haven't read what we're talking about

or

b) Didn't read/understand what I'm saying

For now, I'll only say that if you read my post, you'd realize that I was talking about Franzen's lack of production in the regular season. Your analogy is completely ludicrous.

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08-06-2012, 10:26 PM
  #911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
Well to be fair to Michalek, the Rangers did their best to shut down the Spezza line and of course EK, and they were quite effective. Lundqvist was also pretty tough to beat as I recall...

Points are great, but they don't always tell the whole story.

Michalek didn't play bad, or disappear, he (and the rest of the team) just couldn't get enough pucks past Lundqvist.

That's not choking.
He's not a choker but he also might not have a game in his playoff career where he was a difference maker.

This year he scored the first goal in a 3-2 comeback win.
In 2008 he scored the game winner in a game 4 against Dallas, saving the Sharks from elimination. The next game he scored the 1st goal in a 3-2 comeback win. They lost in 6.
In 2007 he scored 2 goals, including the game winner, in a 3-2 victory.

And there you have significant moments in Milan Michaleks playoff career. I'm not down on him and I'm not calling him a choker and I'm not saying he can't play in the playoffs, but so far his playoff career has been pretty inconsequential.


Last edited by Andre Benoit Bawls: 08-06-2012 at 10:34 PM.
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08-06-2012, 10:47 PM
  #912
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Well he also could have tied game 7 against the Rags but couldn't beat Lundqvist from the slot.

Michalek is not a true sniper. We all know that. If/when we do get a true sniper on that line...look out league.

Maybe Puempel

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08-06-2012, 10:55 PM
  #913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
Well he also could have tied game 7 against the Rags but couldn't beat Lundqvist from the slot.

Michalek is not a true sniper. We all know that. If/when we do get a true sniper on that line...look out league.

Maybe Puempel
Haha, I never took you for a fanboy. I hope he's as good as you think he is, I've barely seen him play.

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08-06-2012, 11:06 PM
  #914
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Just a hunch.

We'll see what happens at camp.

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Old
08-06-2012, 11:25 PM
  #915
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manked View Post
Really?

This response is only evident that you either:

a) Haven't read what we're talking about

or

b) Didn't read/understand what I'm saying

For now, I'll only say that if you read my post, you'd realize that I was talking about Franzen's lack of production in the regular season. Your analogy is completely ludicrous.
Someone mentioned Clowe elevates his level of play for the playoffs and he's therefore clutch.

You then said 'yeah but there are a ton of players are one or two year playoff wonders and people call them clutch' and cited Franzen as an example because his past two postseasons have been bad.

I said it wasn't really fair to Franzen to criticize his most recent playoffs because he's suffered underlying injuries, so he may indeed be a clutch player.

You then said 'yeah but points are what matter. He doesn't produce in the regular season and his injuries don't matter,' which - in the context of what was being discussed (Franzen's injuries hurting his playoff performance) - I took to mean 'his point totals are the only things that matter when evaluating playoff performance, *irrelevant statement about regular season*, and injuries don't make a difference.'

I then said 'Gaborik was injured this playoffs, didn't produce, and must be a choker (ie anti-clutch)'

You then criticize me for not properly responding to your statements about his poor regular season production when we were clearly discussing playoff performance and clutch-value.

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Old
08-06-2012, 11:27 PM
  #916
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Michalek > Clowe but Clowe is being underrated in this thread. Except by CH.

Just last year Clowe had 62 points and 15 points in 17 playoffs games. He had a bad year - but what about Michalek's two previous years? Horrible. Michalek will never score 35 goals again (much less bold than Manked's prediction of a Sens Cup in 2013).

Clowe is a slight downgrade but Boyle is definitely an upgrade over Gonchar.

Anyway, fair proposal imo (so proud of myself), not too lopsided for one team.

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08-06-2012, 11:29 PM
  #917
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Michalek > Clowe but Clowe is being underrated in this thread. Except by CH.

Just last year Clowe had 62 points and 15 points in 17 playoffs games. He had a bad year - but what about Michalek's two previous years? Horrible. Michalek will never score 35 goals again (much less bold than Manked's prediction of a Sens Cup in 2013).

Clowe is a slight downgrade but Boyle is definitely an upgrade over Gonchar.

Anyway, fair proposal imo (so proud of myself), not too lopsided for one team.
Really? Maybe the value is somewhat close, but I don't think either team would be happy with this deal.

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08-06-2012, 11:29 PM
  #918
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
Someone mentioned Clowe elevates his level of play for the playoffs and he's therefore clutch.

You then said 'yeah but there are a ton of players are one or two year playoff wonders and people call them clutch' and cited Franzen as an example because his past two postseasons have been bad.

I said it wasn't really fair to Franzen to criticize his most recent playoffs because he's suffered underlying injuries, so he may indeed be a clutch player.

You then said 'yeah but points are what matter. He doesn't produce in the regular season and his injuries don't matter,' which - in the context of what was being discussed (Franzen's injuries hurting his playoff performance) - I took to mean 'his point totals are the only things that matter when evaluating playoff performance, *irrelevant statement about regular season*, and injuries don't make a difference.'

I then said 'Gaborik was injured this playoffs, didn't produce, and must be a choker (ie anti-clutch)'

You then criticize me for not properly responding to your statements about his poor regular season production when we were clearly discussing playoff performance and clutch-value.
I can't even follow this but I agree. LOL

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08-06-2012, 11:31 PM
  #919
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Really? Maybe the value is somewhat close, but I don't think either team would be happy with this deal.
SJS fans were happy. They need speed and are getting an upgrade at forward.

The Sens get local boy Dany Boy, dump Gonchar which they are looking to do, and you know Murray loves power forward types.

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08-06-2012, 11:31 PM
  #920
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I'd do Clowe + Boyle for Michalek + Gonchar in a heartbeat. No idea why San Jose does it, though.

Clowe & Michalek are way closer than people here are willing to admit, and Boyle is such a ridiculous upgrade on Gonchar that it makes my head spin just thinking about it.

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08-06-2012, 11:34 PM
  #921
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
Someone mentioned Clowe elevates his level of play for the playoffs and he's therefore clutch.

You then said 'yeah but there are a ton of players are one or two year playoff wonders and people call them clutch' and cited Franzen as an example because his past two postseasons have been bad.

I said it wasn't really fair to Franzen to criticize his most recent playoffs because he's suffered underlying injuries, so he may indeed be a clutch player.

You then said 'yeah but points are what matter. He doesn't produce in the regular season and his injuries don't matter,' which - in the context of what was being discussed (Franzen's injuries hurting his playoff performance) - I took to mean 'his point totals are the only things that matter when evaluating playoff performance, *irrelevant statement about regular season*, and injuries don't make a difference.'

I then said 'Gaborik was injured this playoffs, didn't produce, and must be a choker (ie anti-clutch)'

You then criticize me for not properly responding to your statements about his poor regular season production when we were clearly discussing playoff performance and clutch-value.
My point about the regular season is not irrelevant.

It's called introducing a new aspect to a conversation.

My point regarding Franzen was actually this. You can be injured all you want, but when you're playing you have to play well. So if you're Johan Franzen and can't produce in the regular season, and you can't produce in the post-season (regardless of injuries), then you can't really label him as a clutch playoff player. Marian Gaborik may not produce in the playoffs, but his regular season track record speaks for itself. Franzen's still a very successful regular season player, but I don't consider him a playoff warrior. In the last 13 playoff games, he has 4 points.

Also, your original comment about Gaborik is irrelevant, Franzen is labelled as a Playoff God. Gaborik isn't.

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08-06-2012, 11:34 PM
  #922
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
I'd do Clowe + Boyle for Michalek + Gonchar in a heartbeat. No idea why San Jose does it, though.

Clowe & Michalek are way closer than people here are willing to admit, and Boyle is such a ridiculous upgrade on Gonchar that it makes my head spin just thinking about it.
Yes, a nominee for Smartest Poster agrees with me on this one.


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08-06-2012, 11:36 PM
  #923
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
I'd do Clowe + Boyle for Michalek + Gonchar in a heartbeat. No idea why San Jose does it, though.

Clowe & Michalek are way closer than people here are willing to admit, and Boyle is such a ridiculous upgrade on Gonchar that it makes my head spin just thinking about it.
Pretty much exactly how I see it. And that's not just because you were a nominee for smartest poster.

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08-06-2012, 11:37 PM
  #924
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Michalek > Clowe but Clowe is being underrated in this thread. Except by CH.

Just last year Clowe had 62 points and 15 points in 17 playoffs games. He had a bad year - but what about Michalek's two previous years? Horrible. Michalek will never score 35 goals again (much less bold than Manked's prediction of a Sens Cup in 2013).

Clowe is a slight downgrade but Boyle is definitely an upgrade over Gonchar.

Anyway, fair proposal imo (so proud of myself), not too lopsided for one team.
I actually agree with you on the value thing (and have from the start). Still don't think the Sharks would do the deal.

You obviously haven't stalked me as much as I have you. If you did, you'd know that no matter what, I say the Sens will win the cup next year. It's my thing.

This is what I was originally going to post:

Michalek > Clowe
Boyle >> Gonchar

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08-06-2012, 11:37 PM
  #925
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As for Clowe's low hit total.

He was #1 on the Sharks' forwards. I suspect SJ is one of those buildings where they aren't generous with hit counts.

The two seasons before he had 150+ hits.

Anyway, the guy fights and plays a power game. He has decent playmaking instincts too and can play LW or RW. Good Newfie boy like our Green Giant.

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