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Free Agency & General Offseason Discussion Thread: Part III - The Brenden Morrow Saga

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Old
08-06-2012, 11:40 PM
  #926
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Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
Yes, a nominee for Smartest Poster agrees with me on this one.



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08-06-2012, 11:40 PM
  #927
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I actually agree with you on the value thing (and have from the start). Still don't think the Sharks would do the deal.

You obviously haven't stalked me as much as I have you. If you did, you'd know that no matter what, I say the Sens will win the cup next year. It's my thing.

This is what I was originally going to post:

Michalek > Clowe
Boyle >> Gonchar
So you agree, we should do it We have more '>'s.

Maybe Sharks fans can't overcome their mancrushes for Milan

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Old
08-06-2012, 11:41 PM
  #928
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
As for Clowe's low hit total.

He was #1 on the Sharks' forwards. I suspect SJ is one of those buildings where they aren't generous with hit counts.

The two seasons before he had 150+ hits.

Anyway, the guy fights and plays a power game. He has decent playmaking instincts too and can play LW or RW. Good Newfie boy like our Green Giant.
Clowe is certainly a physical player, I'm not denying that.

I won't comment on your HP Pavilion Conspiracy theory, but Michalek is still an all-round better player than Clowe. I'll go back to my Michalek = 3/4, Clowe = 5/6 guy.

I have more faith in Michalek than most of you here apparently. Here, I'll admit:

-I'm undervaluing Clowe
-People are overvaluing Boyle
-People are undervaluing Michalek
-Gonchar is ****ing Gonchar

Sens should do that deal, SJ probably doesn't.

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Old
08-06-2012, 11:42 PM
  #929
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
I'd do Clowe + Boyle for Michalek + Gonchar in a heartbeat. No idea why San Jose does it, though.

Clowe & Michalek are way closer than people here are willing to admit, and Boyle is such a ridiculous upgrade on Gonchar that it makes my head spin just thinking about it.
Thank you.

I agree that Michalek and Clowe are relatively closer in value than some would care to believe and Boyle is a definite upgrade than Gonchar. I'm surprised that SJS fans were okay with this proposition (if they truly were so).

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Old
08-06-2012, 11:45 PM
  #930
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Originally Posted by Manked View Post
Clowe is certainly a physical player, I'm not denying that.

I won't comment on your HP Pavilion Conspiracy theory, but Michalek is still an all-round better player than Clowe. I'll go back to my Michalek = 3/4, Clowe = 5/6 guy.

I have more faith in Michalek than most of you here apparently. Here, I'll admit:

-I'm undervaluing Clowe
-People are overvaluing Boyle
-People are undervaluing Michalek
-Gonchar is ****ing Gonchar

Sens should do that deal, SJ probably doesn't.
I'm leaning towards Clowe being a #5 and Michalek being a #4.

The seasons they had this year could easily be flipped next year and we could be saying the opposite.

Clowe - Turris - Alfredsson

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Old
08-06-2012, 11:50 PM
  #931
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Methot-Karlsson
Cowen-Boyle
Phillips-Lundin

That looks a lot sexier than what we have now. Still think Clowe is a 2nd liner, and Michalek is a 1st though. What would forwards be?

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Old
08-06-2012, 11:54 PM
  #932
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Originally Posted by Manked View Post
Clowe is certainly a physical player, I'm not denying that.

I won't comment on your HP Pavilion Conspiracy theory, but Michalek is still an all-round better player than Clowe. I'll go back to my Michalek = 3/4, Clowe = 5/6 guy.

I have more faith in Michalek than most of you here apparently. Here, I'll admit:

-I'm undervaluing Clowe
-People are overvaluing Boyle
-People are undervaluing Michalek
-Gonchar is ****ing Gonchar

Sens should do that deal, SJ probably doesn't.
I think I'm under-rating Michalek's present value because of two things:

1. Probability of injury
2. Probability of continued success

It wasn't too long ago that some were worried Michalek's knee was blown out. He's had consistent injury troubles and who's to say he's one bad knee injury away from becoming a Cheechoo. This could be said about a lot of players perhaps, but it still makes me skeptical until I see him play some full, healthy seasons consecutively. Same goes for his performance this season. From 2006 to the 2010-2011 season, he regressed statistically. This is a combination of his injuries taking a toll on his play and becoming an Ottawa Senator in the 2009-2010 season where everyone suffered statistically until this past season. These are both explanations and possible excuses for his regression, but I'd still like to see him recreate this past season before I truly value him as a bonafide 1st line player.

Perhaps I am being unfair to Michalek, but I'm just hoping that this past season wasn't a semi-fluke.

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Old
08-06-2012, 11:56 PM
  #933
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manked View Post
Methot-Karlsson
Cowen-Boyle
Phillips-Lundin

That looks a lot sexier than what we have now. Still think Clowe is a 2nd liner, and Michalek is a 1st though. What would forwards be?
Cowen - Karlsson
Phillips - Boyle
Methot - Lundin(Regin)

sexy


Clowe - Turris - Alfredsson
Latendresse - Spezza - Stone
Silfverberg - Regin - Neil
Greening - Smith - Condra/JOB
Daugavins

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Old
08-06-2012, 11:57 PM
  #934
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Originally Posted by TheSilfverBullet View Post
I think I'm under-rating Michalek's present value because of two things:

1. Probability of injury
2. Probability of continued success

It wasn't too long ago that some were worried Michalek's knee was blown out. He's had consistent injury troubles and who's to say he's one bad knee injury away from becoming a Cheechoo. This could be said about a lot of players perhaps, but it still makes me skeptical until I see him play some full, healthy seasons consecutively. Same goes for his performance this season. From 2006 to the 2010-2011 season, he regressed statistically. This is a combination of his injuries taking a toll on his play and becoming an Ottawa Senator in the 2009-2010 season where everyone suffered statistically until this past season. These are both explanations and possible excuses for his regression, but I'd still like to see him recreate this past season before I truly value him as a bonafide 1st line player.

Perhaps I am being unfair to Michalek, but I'm just hoping that this past season wasn't a semi-fluke.
If I had been monitored since 2009, the most frequent Senators phrase leaving my mouth must be:

"People don't realize how amazing Milan Michalek is when he's injury free. He's one of the most dynamic players, Hossa-like."

Remember when Hossa used to slow down in the neutral zone, let the opposing defenceman slow down, and then power past them? Michalek does the same thing.

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Old
08-06-2012, 11:58 PM
  #935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Cowen - Karlsson
Phillips - Boyle
Methot - Lundin(Regin)

sexy


Clowe - Turris - Alfredsson
Latendresse - Spezza - Stone
Silfverberg - Regin - Neil
Greening - Smith - Condra/JOB
Daugavins


Bad, Bad MAK.

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Old
08-07-2012, 12:04 AM
  #936
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Bad, Bad MAK.
ÉÉ????

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Old
08-07-2012, 02:36 AM
  #937
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Michalek has nowhere near the offensive ability that Hossa has.

I like Michalek. He's smart, he's fast, he makes good reads, he finds holes, but he is more Marcel Hossa than he is Marian.

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08-07-2012, 02:43 AM
  #938
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manked View Post
If I had been monitored since 2009, the most frequent Senators phrase leaving my mouth must be:

"People don't realize how amazing Milan Michalek is when he's injury free. He's one of the most dynamic players, Hossa-like."

Remember when Hossa used to slow down in the neutral zone, let the opposing defenceman slow down, and then power past them? Michalek does the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
Michalek has nowhere near the offensive ability that Hossa has.

I like Michalek. He's smart, he's fast, he makes good reads, he finds holes, but he is more Marcel Hossa than he is Marian.
Calling him closer to Marcel is a huge stretch, but I agree. He doesn't have the hockey IQ Hossa has. Hossa is on another level then Michalek when it comes to thinking the game. What makes Hossa so lethal is he's as good a play maker as he is a goal scorer. Thats not something you can say about Michalek.

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Old
08-07-2012, 02:51 AM
  #939
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Marcel was an exaggeration of course.

I do think that Michalek probably does have a hockey IQ similar to Hossa's, but the hands aren't there.

I think the best way to describe Michalek is that his hands never caught up to his wheels.

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Old
08-07-2012, 02:53 AM
  #940
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Yea thats very true. I just don't think Michalek ever really possessed very good playmaking skills. Some guys just dont have that skill. Hossa is amazing as that aspect. Makes everyone around him better.

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08-07-2012, 08:32 AM
  #941
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Anyone remember when we traded Meszaros to Tampa.. They wanted to give us Boyle and Boyle wanted to waive to come to Ottawa and BMur didn't want his cap hit... yea...

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Old
08-07-2012, 08:48 AM
  #942
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Anyone remember when we traded Meszaros to Tampa.. They wanted to give us Boyle and Boyle wanted to waive to come to Ottawa and BMur didn't want his cap hit... yea...
From what I remember it wasn't the cap hit, but the term of the contract.

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Old
08-07-2012, 09:46 AM
  #943
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Call me crazy, but we were damn healthy last year, even if we have more injuries im still excited to see what the prospects can finally do in big games consistently.

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Old
08-07-2012, 09:51 AM
  #944
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Call me crazy, but we were damn healthy last year, even if we have more injuries im still excited to see what the prospects can finally do in big games consistently.
Yeah we will definitely have far more man games lost this year. That's the only reason I think we might not make the playoffs. I think we have the depth to fill holes formidably, besides Spezza's spot.

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08-07-2012, 09:55 AM
  #945
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From what I remember it wasn't the cap hit, but the term of the contract.
Boyle didn't want to come to Ottawa at the time.

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Old
08-07-2012, 09:57 AM
  #946
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Yeah we will definitely have far more man games lost this year. That's the only reason I think we might not make the playoffs. I think we have the depth to fill holes formidably, besides Spezza's spot.
I still think Turris, Regin, Zibby, Smith as our centers can win us games. I have faith in what the coaching staff demands. IF spezza goes down I expect something like that *knockon****ingwood

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08-07-2012, 11:56 AM
  #947
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My point about the regular season is not irrelevant.

It's called introducing a new aspect to a conversation.

My point regarding Franzen was actually this. You can be injured all you want, but when you're playing you have to play well. So if you're Johan Franzen and can't produce in the regular season, and you can't produce in the post-season (regardless of injuries), then you can't really label him as a clutch playoff player. Marian Gaborik may not produce in the playoffs, but his regular season track record speaks for itself. Franzen's still a very successful regular season player, but I don't consider him a playoff warrior. In the last 13 playoff games, he has 4 points.

Also, your original comment about Gaborik is irrelevant, Franzen is labelled as a Playoff God. Gaborik isn't.
I'd agree to an extent that a 'clutch' player should be able to score key goals or make plays at key times for his team, even if it that means he's doing it in the regular season.

However, saying that injuries shouldn't factor into that is kind of neglecting an important variable, one that you're using to demonstrate how people are underrating Michalek in this thread - that injured players aren't going to play up to their full potential.

It's why I brought up Gaborik - people were claiming Gaborik was a choker on the basis that he did not produce points during the playoffs (thus his level of play declined from a good regular season to the poor playoffs). He was playing injured the entire time, however, so his lack of productivity can be attributed to his injuries. Which is exactly what you've agreed - his larger body of work shows he's an elite player and this playoff run was an aberration.

A guy like Franzen should get the same benefit of the doubt - when he's had three great, fairly long playoff runs that have been worthy of clutch-play status, and two short playoff runs that were marred by injuries, he shouldn't be discredited because of the two short injury-plagued runs. Even when you bring his regular season performance into the equation, it might not be elite, but he's a far cry from being unproductive, either (he's consistently producing elite 2nd liner numbers - just under 60 point paces each season, with ~55 real points per year). I think Franzen fits the bill as a guy who can be described as clutch - he's consistently good and he's shown he can be great when he needs to be.

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08-07-2012, 12:01 PM
  #948
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I'd agree to an extent that a 'clutch' player should be able to score key goals or make plays at key times for his team, even if it that means he's doing it in the regular season.

However, saying that injuries shouldn't factor into that is kind of neglecting an important variable, one that you're using to demonstrate how people are underrating Michalek in this thread - that injured players aren't going to play up to their full potential.

It's why I brought up Gaborik - people were claiming Gaborik was a choker on the basis that he did not produce points during the playoffs (thus his level of play declined from a good regular season to the poor playoffs). He was playing injured the entire time, however, so his lack of productivity can be attributed to his injuries. Which is exactly what you've agreed - his larger body of work shows he's an elite player and this playoff run was an aberration.

A guy like Franzen should get the same benefit of the doubt - when he's had three great, fairly long playoff runs that have been worthy of clutch-play status, and two short playoff runs that were marred by injuries, he shouldn't be discredited because of the two short injury-plagued runs. Even when you bring his regular season performance into the equation, it might not be elite, but he's a far cry from being unproductive, either (he's consistently producing elite 2nd liner numbers - just under 60 point paces each season, with ~55 real points per year). I think Franzen fits the bill as a guy who can be described as clutch - he's consistently good and he's shown he can be great when he needs to be.
Okay. I mostly agree with you, but just feel someone can eternally get the benefit of the doubt as a playoff warrior, because MOST of the time, people who have great playoffs don't end up being consistently a playoff warrior.

Franzen would still be considered one for sure, but has to do something soon to maintain that status.

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08-07-2012, 12:04 PM
  #949
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Okay. I mostly agree with you, but just feel someone can eternally get the benefit of the doubt as a playoff warrior, because MOST of the time, people who have great playoffs don't end up being consistently a playoff warrior.

Franzen would still be considered one for sure, but has to do something soon to maintain that status.
Yeah I agree - especially with Lidstrom gone from the backend.

For what it's worth I wasn't trying to disprove your overall point, that for every clutch guy like an Eberle, a Sakic, or a Franzen, there's ten faux-clutch players - the Talbots, the Pisanis, the Penners, etc

Also check your PSN inbox

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08-07-2012, 12:12 PM
  #950
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What's "faux" about a guy elevating his game in the playoffs?

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