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Where would suit Girgensons best 2012-13

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Old
07-11-2012, 05:40 AM
  #1
Tra La La
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Where would suit Girgensons best 2012-13

Rochester, Vermont, Kelowna, Finland (with Armia) ? Where will his offensive skills best develop?

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07-11-2012, 05:43 AM
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I think he will develop best in Vermont/Kelowna.....not sure if Finland is an option at this point, and I really think he isn't quite ready for rochester.

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07-11-2012, 05:47 AM
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I can promise you he will not be playing for Ässät in the SM-liiga. Hope that helps some

I can also say that I don't see any benefits for him playing in Vermont. The only reason he would even be contemplating is to be a man of his word and honor a prior commitment. I hope he plays for Kelowna for a year before the AHL. If he shows to be AHL-worthy right now in the eyes of the staff, I'm okay with that.

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07-11-2012, 06:08 AM
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IMO the best place for his development would be Kelowna or any WHL team he'd be willing to report to if Kelowna would be willing to trade his rights.
Vermont is significantly less appealing than Kelowna for me but I'd be fine with it because at least he'd be playing somewhere he belongs.

I don't see the AHL as a valid option, period.
The USHL is a league that is meant to develop D1 players, not professional players.
The level of play in junior A is lower than major junior, which is already a step down from minor pro.
The only player I can think of who made the jump from junior A directly to professional hockey is Dainius Zubrus.
There are other undrafted examples like Fedotenko and others (mostly enforcers who sucked so much that they couldn't play major junior), but they were older.
Regardless, it's rare and I think it's better to let him develop the way he should.
Kelowna and Vermont specialize in turning teenagers into legitimate NHL prospects and AHL teams don't (they get almost finished products from major junior/NCAA), so it's a no-brainer for me.

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07-11-2012, 06:10 AM
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Personal preferences for me --

1) WHL - be it Kelowna or some other team who obtains his rights, the length of the season and pro development game in the 'dub is top notch.
2) Vermont - Letting him continue to progress but against his peer group.






3) AHL - I'm not a fan of 18-year olds playing against 20-something pros. I'd rather not see this kid Novotny'ed.

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07-11-2012, 06:18 AM
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CHL, NCAA, everything else, AHL - in that order

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07-11-2012, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
Personal preferences for me --

1) WHL - be it Kelowna or some other team who obtains his rights, the length of the season and pro development game in the 'dub is top notch.
2) Vermont - Letting him continue to progress but against his peer group.






3) AHL - I'm not a fan of 18-year olds playing against 20-something pros. I'd rather not see this kid Novotny'ed.
This.

I'd also prefer that Grigorenko gets another year in Quebec.

I want the Sabres to slow cook these guys and not rush them.

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07-11-2012, 07:02 AM
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Given the hole we have at #3 C....I honestly would like to see him get a shot at camp. Sign Arnott, give him a mentor, see if he can make it out of camp. However, I'd rather have him in college than with the Amerks.

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07-11-2012, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by GirgsAndGrigs View Post
Given the hole we have at #3 C....I honestly would like to see him get a shot at camp. Sign Arnott, give him a mentor, see if he can make it out of camp. However, I'd rather have him in college than with the Amerks.
I see Girgs going to UVM for the next year. At 19, he will play against men much stronger, bigger and more mature than he. Also he will be working out daily in an ideal setting as every D-1 program offers the best of training facilites and trainers. By the way, Charlie Coyle (ex BU player) is a good example of what happens when top D-1 players leave college -they score at will and dominate. Coyle leaves BU with 3 goals and sets a Q scoring record. No way the competition in the Q was as tough as Girgs will find in NCAA. Girgs is not going to play another year in juniors to prove he can dominate. We know he is good. He needs to be faster, bigger and stronger and learn to compete against bigger, stronger, faster men. Next year he willbe more prepared can take on the men playing in the AHL/NHL. I see UVM as the perfect fit.

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07-11-2012, 07:57 AM
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While he would do well facing his age group at UVM, he is essentially playing half a season, at most somewhere around 45 games, and thats assuming he stays healthy. The reasons for keeping him there are sound, facing players more his age, and he will definitely see top line minutes with the squad, whereas in the AHL he might get 2nd or 3rd line minutes.

However in the AHL, again staying healthy, would get 76 games, over 50% more. He would be facing pros who are just at or near NHL level and he will be more ready for the competition when he makes the Sabres in 1-3 years. The con is that, with the competition being more stiff, the chance for injury will exponentially grow.

He won't play in Europe, I can guarantee that. And juniors doesn't seem like an option at this juncture either.

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07-11-2012, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfb392 View Post
IMO the best place for his development would be Kelowna or any WHL team he'd be willing to report to if Kelowna would be willing to trade his rights.
Vermont is significantly less appealing than Kelowna for me but I'd be fine with it because at least he'd be playing somewhere he belongs.

I don't see the AHL as a valid option, period.
The USHL is a league that is meant to develop D1 players, not professional players.
The level of play in junior A is lower than major junior, which is already a step down from minor pro.
The only player I can think of who made the jump from junior A directly to professional hockey is Dainius Zubrus.
There are other undrafted examples like Fedotenko and others (mostly enforcers who sucked so much that they couldn't play major junior), but they were older.
Regardless, it's rare and I think it's better to let him develop the way he should.
Kelowna and Vermont specialize in turning teenagers into legitimate NHL prospects and AHL teams don't (they get almost finished products from major junior/NCAA), so it's a no-brainer for me
.
Well said. They are different but still work to move adolescents to being men in their own way. The AHL is a men's league, it's not the place to nurture 18 or 19 year old kids most of the time, particularly not if they're coming straight from the USHL.

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07-11-2012, 08:23 AM
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If he doesn't make the team in camp but he's close, I'd put him in Rochester. He would likely get promoted at some point during the season and I think he's mature enough both mentally and physically to handle it.

If he's at least one year away, I'd pick Vermont over Kelowna (or another WHL team) easily. I don't think he wants to go to Kelowna. He wants to fulfill his commitment to Vermont if he's not turning pro. He is an extremely loyal person. Sending him to Kelowna, IMO, would not only hurt him because he wants to go to Vermont but also hurt our relationship with him because we prevented him from fulfilling his commitment.

Based on comments in all his interviews I've heard it would be a bad idea to not take his feelings into consideration. We could either have a player willing to die for us or a player that will jet at the first opportunity because we've offended him.

I know this is getting way deep into the psychological aspects of this decision but sometimes that's just as important to some players as juniors versus college.

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07-11-2012, 08:24 AM
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Can someone who follows these things closer give me an idea of what role Girgensons would have on Kelowna or at Vermont? My personal preference is for him to play on whatever team gives him the biggest, most influential role.

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07-11-2012, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
Well said. They are different but still work to move adolescents to being men in their own way. The AHL is a men's league, it's not the place to nurture 18 or 19 year old kids most of the time, particularly not if they're coming straight from the USHL.
But isn't this the same reason people considered Armia to be better off? I heard continuosly about Armia, "but he's playing against men" or "after a few more years of playing against men he's going to be so much better".

Girgensons is far better suited mentally and physically to be playing against men then Armia. There are plenty of players that make the jump from the draft to the NHL and are fine. Granted its probably not from the USHL, but I think he could handle it if he fairs well enough at training camp. If he doesn't then its off to Vermont.

EDIT: Scratch that. He can't go to camp if he's going to Vermont right? So I guess that decision will have to come from Dcamp.


Last edited by Digable5: 07-11-2012 at 08:37 AM.
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07-11-2012, 08:32 AM
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Question: Can he do a 9 game AHL trial run like rookies can in the NHL and then go back to Jrs?

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07-11-2012, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GirgsAndGrigs View Post
Given the hole we have at #3 C....I honestly would like to see him get a shot at camp. Sign Arnott, give him a mentor, see if he can make it out of camp. However, I'd rather have him in college than with the Amerks.
100% agree with the first sentence. Rochester is next for me. I want him in the organization.

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07-11-2012, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digable5 View Post
But isn't this the same reason people considered Armia to be better off? I heard continuosly about Armia, "but he's playing against men" or "after a few more years of playing against men he's going to be so much better".

Girgensons is far better suited mentally and physically to be playing against men then Armia. There are plenty of players that make the jump from the draft to the NHL and are fine. Granted its probably not from the USHL, but I think he could handle it if he fairs well enough at training camp. If he doesn't then its off to Vermont.
Armia's in a men's league that doesn't feature career minor leaguers who make a point of running kids. He's also playing the same number of games that Girgensons would have at UVM, giving his body time to recuperate and to build himself up in-season. 3-in-a-rows and 4 games in 5 night situations? Not good for development. Look at the individual leagues and what they make available to maturing a younger player and they are very different. Yes, there are men in both. No, they are not the same.

You can't name the last USHLer who made the jump without seasoning, because there aren't any. You think that's happenstance? It isn't. Why is there a sudden rush to plug these guys into the lineup without letting them ripen on the vine? I've asked this before, but there is no list of players who've been hurt by taking time to get to the NHL but the list of high-potential players who've been ****ed up by being rushed is long and growing longer around the league.

As for camp, if he's going to UVM, he's not coming to camp. If he comes to camp, it violates his NCAA eligibility. This isn't a case of seeing how he does, that decision is going to be up to him and will be influenced by what pressure the Sabres want to apply.

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07-11-2012, 08:54 AM
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Him going to Vermont would be hurting him develop more than going to the AHL. 40 games on a crappy college team isn't going to do much good for him. IMO he is ready for the AHL. He isn't your typical prospect. He has great size, great attitude, skates well, has better hands than thought and overall is very mature for his age. I would say he looked more ready for the AHL than many guys already there.

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07-11-2012, 09:01 AM
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Devine said it was 50/50 he'd be in the AHL after he was drafted. And now, it clearly sounds like he's impressing at development camp.

Get him to Rochester with Rolston. This is his strength, working with younger players. His own coach said he's definitely mature enough and ready for the AHL. I think his own coach (who was a long time AHL veteran) is more qualified than any of us to judge.

Going to Vermont wouldn't be bad, but Rochester is better in my opinion.

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07-11-2012, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GirgsAndGrigs View Post
Given the hole we have at #3 C....I honestly would like to see him get a shot at camp. Sign Arnott, give him a mentor, see if he can make it out of camp. However, I'd rather have him in college than with the Amerks.
No can do.

The only option in that regard is if he opts to not go to UVm, signs an ELC, and then they can take a long look at him and then decide whether they want him to play in Rochester or the CHL.

If Z decides to honor his commitment to UVm, then he doesn't sign an ELC and that is that.

The Sabres can tell him what they want with regards to playing at UVm next year. But, it's Zemgus' call. The Sabres make the calls once Zemgus signs an ELC and the NC$$ is no longer an option.


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07-11-2012, 09:23 AM
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Devine said it was 50/50 he'd be in the AHL after he was drafted. And now, it clearly sounds like he's impressing at development camp.

Get him to Rochester with Rolston. This is his strength, working with younger players. His own coach said he's definitely mature enough and ready for the AHL. I think his own coach (who was a long time AHL veteran) is more qualified than any of us to judge.

Going to Vermont wouldn't be bad, but Rochester is better in my opinion.
I agree with this, they hired Ron Rolston to be the dean of Sabres University and if he is ready to play in the league then put him there.

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07-11-2012, 09:33 AM
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Him going to Vermont would be hurting him develop more than going to the AHL. 40 games on a crappy college team isn't going to do much good for him. IMO he is ready for the AHL. He isn't your typical prospect. He has great size, great attitude, skates well, has better hands than thought and overall is very mature for his age. I would say he looked more ready for the AHL than many guys already there.
The advantage of going to a rebuilding team, though, is that there is a decent chance Girgensons could get a ton of ice time in all situations, which would obviously be a benefit and probably not something he would get in Rochester. I don't know anything about Kelowna's roster to guess what role he might have there.

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07-11-2012, 09:37 AM
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It sucks that he can't go to training camp due to NCAA rules.

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07-11-2012, 09:39 AM
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It sucks that he can't go to training camp due to NCAA rules.
It's more about the fact that most universities start the fall semester prior to camp.

So, if he's going the NCAA route, he has to be in school and going to class.

Imagine that they actually expect these guys to go to class!


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07-11-2012, 09:53 AM
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Armia's in a men's league that doesn't feature career minor leaguers who make a point of running kids. He's also playing the same number of games that Girgensons would have at UVM, giving his body time to recuperate and to build himself up in-season. 3-in-a-rows and 4 games in 5 night situations? Not good for development. Look at the individual leagues and what they make available to maturing a younger player and they are very different. Yes, there are men in both. No, they are not the same.

You can't name the last USHLer who made the jump without seasoning, because there aren't any. You think that's happenstance? It isn't. Why is there a sudden rush to plug these guys into the lineup without letting them ripen on the vine? I've asked this before, but there is no list of players who've been hurt by taking time to get to the NHL but the list of high-potential players who've been ****ed up by being rushed is long and growing longer around the league.

As for camp, if he's going to UVM, he's not coming to camp. If he comes to camp, it violates his NCAA eligibility. This isn't a case of seeing how he does, that decision is going to be up to him and will be influenced by what pressure the Sabres want to apply.
I respect your opinion but Girgonsens will be the one running the career minor league-rs. I for one believe in what he believes, I think AHL/CHL is a very good option as either way he can play the first 9 NHL games if it is the WHL and if it the AHL I have 100% faith in the sabres organization and if I remember people said about Stamkos about his first year that Barry Merose thought he should not be in the NHL in his first season and look at him now. Forget Vermont I think it sets back his NHL career(but not his development as a whole)


Does anyone know if he plays in the AHL can he still go to the CHL?

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