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Where would suit Girgensons best 2012-13

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Old
07-11-2012, 11:27 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
It's more about the fact that most universities start the fall semester prior to camp.

So, if he's going the NCAA route, he has to be in school and going to class.

Imagine that they actually expect these guys to go to class!

Most NCAA athletes are allowed miss classes for their sports, in some sports they miss quite a lot of classes. But they're not going to allow a kid to miss classes for a pro team's trainging camp.

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07-11-2012, 11:50 AM
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Most NCAA athletes are allowed miss classes for their sports, in some sports they miss quite a lot of classes. But they're not going to allow a kid to miss classes for a pro team's trainging camp.
A player at Clarkson this year will miss about 10 class days due to travel.

To go to a single training camp would likely cost more than that since you'd be gone for probably 3 weeks or more.

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07-11-2012, 12:23 PM
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A player at Clarkson this year will miss about 10 class days due to travel.

To go to a single training camp would likely cost more than that since you'd be gone for probably 3 weeks or more.
You're missing the point.

NCAA athletes in various sports are allowed to miss classes for their sports. NCAA basketball players can miss about month's worth of classes between travel during the season and tournaments. On the better teams they will miss even more.


Missing classes would only become an issue in Girgensons case because of the reason for missing them not the act itself.




EDIT: Btw the 10 days of class that Clarkson player misses would be 2 weeks of camp since their are only 5 days of classes per week.


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07-11-2012, 12:50 PM
  #29
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yeah but those 10 days at Clarkson aren't all at once it is spread throughout the semester. It is difficult for students to grasp the material if they are missing weeks at a time especially at the beginning of the semester when the intellectual groundwork is being laid. Not to mention the fact that if they came back from camp because they didn't make the team that would most likely mean they were playing for the school team and add even more time off.

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07-11-2012, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
You're missing the point.
No, I'm disagreeing with the point.

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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
NCAA athletes in various sports are allowed to miss classes for their sports. NCAA basketball players can miss about month's worth of classes between travel during the season and tournaments. On the better teams they will miss even more.

Missing classes would only become an issue in Girgensons case because of the reason for missing them not the act itself.
It's like that everywhere.

Missing school at any level is either OK or not OK based on why you missed school.

I would understand why the NCAA would be OK with athletes missing class to represent their school in competition and not to miss weeks of school for what is essentially a weeks long job interview.

I doubt too many schools would be OK with a student missing weeks of school because they had a mini-internship with a company during a semester where they are supposed to be on campus.

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EDIT: Btw the 10 days of class that Clarkson player misses would be 2 weeks of camp since their are only 5 days of classes per week.
I know. That's why I said camp lasting 3+ weeks would be more than the two weeks worth of classes that a player misses due to travel.

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07-11-2012, 12:52 PM
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Go to Vermont and play against his own age group. Let him work on the small things there to better polish his game. Im not sure but if the NCAA season is over could he jump to the AHL?

Grigorenko i could see him going back to Quebec for another year to do what ziggy is doing and just fine tune your game and give it some polish.

We finally have a deep prospect pool, lets not ruin them and let them develop at their own pace.

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07-11-2012, 12:54 PM
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Im not sure but if the NCAA season is over could he jump to the AHL?
Only if he decided to forego his final three years at UVm and decided to turn pro by signing an Amateur Try Out contract with the Amerks.

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07-11-2012, 12:57 PM
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Slightly off-topic but pertaining to the CHL/NCAA/AHL debate. Say Dallas takes Teravainen at 13...the Sabres motivation to move up to 14 was probably not for Girgensons exclusively, but for one of ZG/Faksa. So who would we have taken? What if Dallas took ZG?

We've taken a strong liking to ZG for obvious reasons in the weeks since the draft. I can see him becoming a historical franchise favorite 20 years from now. I know Devine and Darcy said that he was their guy all along, which is the standard comment from front offices post-draft. However, a lot of us liked Faksa just as much if not more than ZG and he has a comfortable CHL spot to develop where he's already been successful. Less flexibility than ZG's situation, but more stability perhaps? Which situation is better?

Faksa signed with Dallas today. It will be interesting to follow the 12,13,14 centers from this draft as the years go by. Gotta love these new found connections with the Stars

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07-11-2012, 01:25 PM
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CHL would suit him best. Vermont would hurt him if anything. Needs to play a lot of games vs the best competition. I don't think the AHL would be good for him. He should be with peers. Bussing to Motel 6's with a bunch of washed up loser journeymen ain't the best spot for an 18 year old, no offense to Mancari.

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07-11-2012, 01:26 PM
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Going to UVM is not going to hurt his development.

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07-11-2012, 01:31 PM
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Going to UVM is not going to hurt his development.
He should go to Canisius.

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07-11-2012, 01:42 PM
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Going to UVM is not going to hurt his development.
It is tough to get better when you are playing with guys who are not as talented. I see no way Vermont is going to help him. Rolston was brought here for guys like Zemgus. He has a lot of experience in his age group.

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07-11-2012, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by BloFan4Life View Post
It is tough to get better when you are playing with guys who are not as talented. I see no way Vermont is going to help him. Rolston was brought here for guys like Zemgus. He has a lot of experience in his age group.
It's also shown to be tough to get better when playing against fully physically developed men in a league that doesn't allow for recuperation or nearly as much in-season training via the history of young guys who've taken the route and failed/not lived up to potential by doing so.

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07-11-2012, 02:11 PM
  #39
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I want to see him playing number 1 line power play minutes somewhere. I think playing third or fourth line minutes in the ahl will stymie his offensive development. Novotny ended up a real solid in his own end center. Without the offensive ability to keep him in the league.

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07-11-2012, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
It's also shown to be tough to get better when playing against fully physically developed men in a league that doesn't allow for recuperation or nearly as much in-season training via the history of young guys who've taken the route and failed/not lived up to potential by doing so.
Zemgus has a body of a 22 year old. He is built. Zemgus in this camp reminded me of Foligno in last camp. He uses his body so well. So mature for his age.

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07-11-2012, 02:18 PM
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I want to see him playing number 1 line power play minutes somewhere. I think playing third or fourth line minutes in the ahl will stymie his offensive development. Novotny ended up a real solid in his own end center. Without the offensive ability to keep him in the league.
I think Novotny is a terrible comparison. He was coming to a new country and certainly didn't have the mental and physical attributes that Girgensons has. That's what makes him a different case compared to others his age.

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07-11-2012, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by BloFan4Life View Post
It is tough to get better when you are playing with guys who are not as talented. I see no way Vermont is going to help him. Rolston was brought here for guys like Zemgus. He has a lot of experience in his age group.
Vermont may not be a top program, but Hockey East is a premier conference. Teams like BC, BU, Maine, UNH, etc. are always loaded with talent...Girgensons WILL be playing solid competition. Sure, Girgensons will the most talented 18 yr old guy there...but guys who are 21, 22...even if they don't have an NHL future and not nearly the same potential, those extra years mig ht mean that they are just as skilled if not more at the current point in time. And I'd expect Girgensons to get top minutes against those guys.

In the AHL, he'll be playing against the Mancaris and Porters of the world. In the NCAA, he'll be playing against the Kreiders of the world. The latter is better for his development.

Maybe he only plays one year at Vermont and then comes pro. That one year could make a tremendous difference--look what happened to Myers in the one year after his draft year, he developed so much that he stepped into the pro game and won the Calder.

Sure, maybe he could hack it at the AHL level, but IMO it's not a risk worth taking. CHL would be best because of the full schedule, but NCAA is still a better route than the AHL, even if just for one season.

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07-11-2012, 02:31 PM
  #43
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I see Girgs going to UVM for the next year. At 19, he will play against men much stronger, bigger and more mature than he. Also he will be working out daily in an ideal setting as every D-1 program offers the best of training facilites and trainers. By the way, Charlie Coyle (ex BU player) is a good example of what happens when top D-1 players leave college -they score at will and dominate. Coyle leaves BU with 3 goals and sets a Q scoring record. No way the competition in the Q was as tough as Girgs will find in NCAA. Girgs is not going to play another year in juniors to prove he can dominate. We know he is good. He needs to be faster, bigger and stronger and learn to compete against bigger, stronger, faster men. Next year he willbe more prepared can take on the men playing in the AHL/NHL. I see UVM as the perfect fit.
No, Charlie Coyle scored a bunch after leaving BU because he was given more icetime with much better linemates on one of the best teams in the whole CHL.
The Sea Dogs and almost every single CHL team plays a more pro style game too, whereas college teams seem to be more focused on getting their points even if it's not pretty.

Girgensons does not need to get bigger or stronger.
He has a pro body already and only needs to focus on gaining back the mass and strength he lost while his jaw was wired shut.
His main focus is developing his offense, which is something that would be better developed in the WHL than at Vermont.

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Well said. They are different but still work to move adolescents to being men in their own way. The AHL is a men's league, it's not the place to nurture 18 or 19 year old kids most of the time, particularly not if they're coming straight from the USHL.
Yep, even with Rolston, it's just not the place for kids.
They don't know how to live alone (they've been living with billets), the fact that they can be called up to the NHL at any time likely weighs on them, and the game is just different mentally.

He has a really low bust factor but you're really testing it if you send him to the AHL at 18.

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Can someone who follows these things closer give me an idea of what role Girgensons would have on Kelowna or at Vermont? My personal preference is for him to play on whatever team gives him the biggest, most influential role.
I'd guess top six forward and likely top line forward on both.
He's already Vermont's best player in a long time, but who knows if he gets top minutes because of how college teams are.

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But isn't this the same reason people considered Armia to be better off? I heard continuosly about Armia, "but he's playing against men" or "after a few more years of playing against men he's going to be so much better".

Girgensons is far better suited mentally and physically to be playing against men then Armia. There are plenty of players that make the jump from the draft to the NHL and are fine. Granted its probably not from the USHL, but I think he could handle it if he fairs well enough at training camp. If he doesn't then its off to Vermont.

EDIT: Scratch that. He can't go to camp if he's going to Vermont right? So I guess that decision will have to come from Dcamp.
Armia is better off because the SM-liiga is where he belongs and they know how to handle him, it's a higher quality league than the AHL, and he knows he can't be called up to the NHL at any time.

There has never been a USHL player that has made the jump directly to the NHL without some finishing in another league, and the AHL is never the league that does the finishing.

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Question: Can he do a 9 game AHL trial run like rookies can in the NHL and then go back to Jrs?
He could play as many games as the Sabres wanted in the AHL and as long as he didn't play more than 10 NHL games, his contract wouldn't count.
They could also assign him to the CHL anytime before the trade deadline but wouldn't be able to get him back until his season there was over.
He has to be assigned around the trading deadline because that's the latest that player cards can be signed in the CHL.

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Originally Posted by VanekTheMvp View Post
Go to Vermont and play against his own age group. Let him work on the small things there to better polish his game. Im not sure but if the NCAA season is over could he jump to the AHL?

Grigorenko i could see him going back to Quebec for another year to do what ziggy is doing and just fine tune your game and give it some polish.

We finally have a deep prospect pool, lets not ruin them and let them develop at their own pace.
He can go to the AHL or NHL after his season is over, but that'd mean that he'd turn pro and forego his remaining NCAA eligibility.

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Slightly off-topic but pertaining to the CHL/NCAA/AHL debate. Say Dallas takes Teravainen at 13...the Sabres motivation to move up to 14 was probably not for Girgensons exclusively, but for one of ZG/Faksa. So who would we have taken? What if Dallas took ZG?

We've taken a strong liking to ZG for obvious reasons in the weeks since the draft. I can see him becoming a historical franchise favorite 20 years from now. I know Devine and Darcy said that he was their guy all along, which is the standard comment from front offices post-draft. However, a lot of us liked Faksa just as much if not more than ZG and he has a comfortable CHL spot to develop where he's already been successful. Less flexibility than ZG's situation, but more stability perhaps? Which situation is better?

Faksa signed with Dallas today. It will be interesting to follow the 12,13,14 centers from this draft as the years go by. Gotta love these new found connections with the Stars
Well, if it was me, I would have traded up and still taken Girgensons.
If he had played in the WHL this season or had been able to enroll at Vermont this season (he couldn't accelerate his school work, he had to complete Latvian and US high school), I believe he would have went top ten.
Hell, if he showed a willingness to decommit from Vermont for Kelowna, he could have gone top ten.
He's a legitimately mean power forward with offensive skill and some of the best defensive ability too.

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Going to UVM is not going to hurt his development.
He's not going to be competing for a national championship, but mediocre programs turn out players.
At least UVM has a bit of a history.
It's not like he's going to UAH.

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07-11-2012, 02:46 PM
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Most NCAA athletes are allowed miss classes for their sports, in some sports they miss quite a lot of classes. But they're not going to allow a kid to miss classes for a pro team's trainging camp.
Hmmm... interesting. I know that at my wife's school, they have sort of a athletic academic coordinator that keeps tabs on the athletes grades and progress, but that doesn't lighten their academic workload at all.

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07-11-2012, 02:52 PM
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I'd guess top six forward and likely top line forward on both.
He's already Vermont's best player in a long time, but who knows if he gets top minutes because of how college teams are.
Hmm, interesting. I'd like to know more.

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07-11-2012, 03:04 PM
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Hmm, interesting. I'd like to know more.
Well, college teams sometimes give out icetime based on seniority.
A kid like Chris Kreider, even with his all of his achievements, basically played third line minutes up until this season IIRC.

Does the same type of thing happen at Vermont if Girgensons goes there?
I don't know their team well enough, but I'd think if the coach is smart and wants to win, he'll give his best player as many minutes as he can handle.
It's not like UVM has options like BC does.

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07-11-2012, 03:15 PM
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Well, college teams sometimes give out icetime based on seniority.
A kid like Chris Kreider, even with his all of his achievements, basically played third line minutes up until this season IIRC.

Does the same type of thing happen at Vermont if Girgensons goes there?
I don't know their team well enough, but I'd think if the coach is smart and wants to win, he'll give his best player as many minutes as he can handle.
It's not like UVM has options like BC does.
Not UVM.

Drew MacKenzie was one of only two upperclassmen amongst their top 9 scorers last year.

4 of those were freshmen.

He'd likely step into one of their top 2 lines.

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07-11-2012, 03:23 PM
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@Ruckus007, I can tell you if he came to Kelowna he would be the man up front. All-situations, lots of minutes and responsibility. We just traded McColgan away who was our leading scorer the last two years, leaving us with probably Colton Sissons as our best offensive player.

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07-11-2012, 03:29 PM
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He should and will be going to Vermont.

Sneddon is a good coach and Hockey East is a great league. Last year sucked but this team has generally been among the second tier teams in the league since making the switch. Playing against BC, BU, Maine, UNH, etc. will be great for him. He should also get an opportunity to play big minutes in all situations and take on a leadership role even as a freshman.

Playing fewer games and having less travel seems like a plus to me. It will give him more chances to practice and weight train to continue to develop. Then after a year, they can revisit where he's at and likely start him out in Rochester to get some additional seasoning.

As others have said, I think there's a lot to lose by trying to rush him and little to gain. Better to take the longview here and expect him to make a significant contribution to the big club in a couple years as a more fully developed and realized 20 year old.

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07-11-2012, 03:29 PM
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Hmmm... interesting. I know that at my wife's school, they have sort of a athletic academic coordinator that keeps tabs on the athletes grades and progress, but that doesn't lighten their academic workload at all.
Since I'm just talking about the physical act of attending class. I fail to see why you're bringing this up. I'm well aware of the fact that schools make an effort to help their athletes stay on track academically when they aren't able to attend class. I've never argued otherwise.


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