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Washington/Vancouver trade

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Old
01-09-2005, 04:36 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids
Now you're talking crazy-talk.
What is crazy? Witt is terribly overated, especially by Canuck fans. He gets out of position regularly going for big hits. He has zero offense, and is just good defensivly. Not some wizard in his own zone like he is made out to be. Sami Salo is a better defenseman than Witt is.

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01-09-2005, 04:50 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chapel113x
Well. I'd like to know what % of defensive defenseman you consider slow skaters. That's just their nature. I wouldn't doubt Witt would get bashed if he played in Vancouver, every defenseman except Ohlund gets bashed in Vancouver.

I'll admit, I haven't seen the Caps play more than 4-5 games last year. But Witt impressed me every game. He was their go to guy on the blue line and impressed me in key situations. He played tough, strong defensively. He was blocking shots and I couldn't remember a glaring defensive error.

The Capitals were a pretty strong team 2 years ago. And Witt was still a good defender, so I don't think it would be a problem with the Canucks. I definitley wouldn't call him bad last season either. Its pretty evident that he doesn't want to play in Washinton anymore. He had a contract dispute and got called out by the coach after a problem with his family (I think it was a death in the family). Now the Caps are one of the worst teams in the NHL. How motivated can he be?

I'd have to agree with most people though, its overpayment from a Canucks standpoint. Im just trying to be fair to Caps fans. Throwing in Fedorov and Malik in the deal is mostly a salary dump. Remember though, The only way i'd trade Sopel is if the Canucks signed Niedermayer. Otherwise I wouldn't. It would probably be just easier to sign him as a UFA.
a high % of defensive dman are probably slow skaters overall... doesn't mean they're ineffective - and as I've stated many times, I do like Witt... but the guy clearly has his deficiencies. It's not unlike Malik.

Malik gets bashed like anything on the canuck boards... the year before it was Sopel... the year before it was Baron... if Witt is a Canuck, instead of Malik, then it would be Witt getting the brunt of those criticisims... just the nature of Canuck fans.

still he's an effective dman, in the right situation. I would definitely want the canucks to be interested in him as a UFA though... I wouldn't have him in the top 4 though in Vancouver... likely on the 3rd pairing, with top PK minutes, and none on the PP obviously... getting about 16-18 mins a game overall, kinda like Malik minutes.

but that to me isn't someone that is so hard to get... especially considering the state of the NHL today... this is what really puts his value low though IMO.

Witt's value needs to be considered not by what Caps fans feel he's worth, but what the NHL market will value him at - that is a player about to his UFA status, likely before another NHL game is even played.

right now, would you give up an asset to LA to get Palffy?? he's a tremendous right winger no doubt... but would you give up a late first rounder for him? would you give up one for Kariya? or Murray? Demitra?

these guys are all UFAs, so I'm assuming the answer is no.

before the next NHL season starts, Witt will be in the same situation, and until he actually signs an extension his value won't change.... why would you give up an asset for Witt, a UFA to be before the next NHL season, while not giving one up for Palffy or Kariya? really they should all be treated as UFAs now - unless we hear something different from the NHL that there is a season this year, I just don't see why we would see it any differently?

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01-09-2005, 06:21 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO

still he's an effective dman, in the right situation. I would definitely want the canucks to be interested in him as a UFA though... I wouldn't have him in the top 4 though in Vancouver... likely on the 3rd pairing, with top PK minutes, and none on the PP obviously... getting about 16-18 mins a game overall, kinda like Malik minutes.
Putting aside UFA status and such......

I agree with what you have said. Wtt would be more of a replacement for Malik than Sopel. He'd play the same roll as Malik (5-on-5 stay at home, + PK). He'd be a the #4 though than #5/6, where Malik is more #5.

#1-3 Ohlund, Jovo & Salo are the top 3. All can 5-5, PP & PK.

#4 Witt, defense assistant assigned to Jovo or Ohlund.

#5 Allen & ? as 5/6.



? is pain because we've traded one too many D (I'll believe Neidermayer in Van when he skates out wearing a Nucks sweater and not before). We are also one short on PP.

It also raises the question, will Allen have overtaken Witt by the time the season starts? If so, Sopel+Malik+Feds is a lot to give up for 5/6 guy.

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Old
01-09-2005, 06:32 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by me2
Putting aside UFA status and such......

I agree with what you have said. Wtt would be more of a replacement for Malik than Sopel. He'd play the same roll as Malik (5-on-5 stay at home, + PK). He'd be a the #4 though than #5/6, where Malik is more #5.

#1-3 Ohlund, Jovo & Salo are the top 3. All can 5-5, PP & PK.

#4 Witt, defense assistant assigned to Jovo or Ohlund.

#5 Allen & ? as 5/6.



? is pain because we've traded one too many D (I'll believe Neidermayer in Van when he skates out wearing a Nucks sweater and not before). We are also one short on PP.

It also raises the question, will Allen have overtaken Witt by the time the season starts? If so, Sopel+Malik+Feds is a lot to give up for 5/6 guy.
I think that Allen will have overtaken Witt by then. Allen we all know is only getting better... any canuck fan can clearly see this guy is consistently improving through each season. most of us had him pegged as Jovo's partner eventually. In another season, I think he's there, while Witt is not on the same learning curve, and if anything is regressing now as a player.

The matchups I see down the road would be:

Ohlund-Salo
Allen-Jovo
Malik-Sopel

keeping in mind which side each dman also plays.

the reason this doesn't work right now is because the 3rd pairing is too soft. Replace Malik with Witt though and you have a unit that works - an offensive Sopel with a defensive and tough Witt - which IMO also makes Sopel a better dman not having to play on the #1 pairing against top offensive oppositions.

Crow's style is to play 1 tough dman with a softer dman... that's why we've seen the pairings as they have been, with Ohlund and Sopel, Malik and Jovo and Allen and Salo... replacing Malik with a guy like Witt would give Crow other options.

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Old
01-09-2005, 06:38 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtuzzi21
You overrate Witt with this trade. Sure he may be the only good veteran on Washington, but that means squat for his trade value.

Sopel had 42 pts last season. Malik is a decent 5th/6th on most teams. Wouldn't do it.
You're on crack. I'd do this trade in a heartbeat.

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Old
01-09-2005, 07:03 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedz
You're on crack. I'd do this trade in a heartbeat.
maybe you're on crack, cause I wouldn't do the deal either.

then again, I don't do deals for players that may never play a game for our team.

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Old
01-09-2005, 10:41 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chapel113x
How bout this:

To Washington:
Brent Sopel
Marek Malik
Fedor Fedorov

To Vancouver:
Brendan Witt

This would be pending Scott Niedermayer signing with the Canucks next season. It might be useless, because im pretty sure Witt is an UFA next season. But im just curious.

WE HAVE DEAL?
I'd do it if we could sub Sopel for Allen and offer you a conditional pick if Witt does not sign. This would cover any loss of value from free agency, and Witt would look awesome for you.

I'm still hoping he signs with us. The Caps have been remarkably stingy with Witt. The owner got kind of personal in attacks on him. He could smooth it over. He could also exacerbate the issue. The offer is ok. Allen would more meet the needs of the Caps. Malik would be a good fit for us while young dmen mature. Fedorov would be a good add.

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01-09-2005, 10:44 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borro
I'd do it if we could sub Sopel for Allen and offer you a conditional pick if Witt does not sign. This would cover any loss of value from free agency, and Witt would look awesome for you.

I'm still hoping he signs with us. The Caps have been remarkably stingy with Witt. The owner got kind of personal in attacks on him. He could smooth it over. He could also exacerbate the issue. The offer is ok. Allen would more meet the needs of the Caps. Malik would be a good fit for us while young dmen mature. Fedorov would be a good add.
lol..Canucks would never even deal Allen for Witt, so this deal is stupid.

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Old
01-09-2005, 10:55 PM
  #34
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Why not just shelve this discussion for two weeks?

By July 1, 2005, Witt's one-year contract out of arbitration will have expired and he will be 31 years old. Under any conceivable CBA agreement, that will make him an unrestricted free agent.

Open this one up again should an 11th-hour CBA be signed, but assessing trade worth would appear to be pretty pointless with everything pointing to a lost 2004-05 season.

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Old
01-10-2005, 12:59 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
a high % of defensive dman are probably slow skaters overall... doesn't mean they're ineffective - and as I've stated many times, I do like Witt... but the guy clearly has his deficiencies. It's not unlike Malik.

Malik gets bashed like anything on the canuck boards... the year before it was Sopel... the year before it was Baron... if Witt is a Canuck, instead of Malik, then it would be Witt getting the brunt of those criticisims... just the nature of Canuck fans.

still he's an effective dman, in the right situation. I would definitely want the canucks to be interested in him as a UFA though... I wouldn't have him in the top 4 though in Vancouver... likely on the 3rd pairing, with top PK minutes, and none on the PP obviously... getting about 16-18 mins a game overall, kinda like Malik minutes.

but that to me isn't someone that is so hard to get... especially considering the state of the NHL today... this is what really puts his value low though IMO.

Witt's value needs to be considered not by what Caps fans feel he's worth, but what the NHL market will value him at - that is a player about to his UFA status, likely before another NHL game is even played.

right now, would you give up an asset to LA to get Palffy?? he's a tremendous right winger no doubt... but would you give up a late first rounder for him? would you give up one for Kariya? or Murray? Demitra?

these guys are all UFAs, so I'm assuming the answer is no.

before the next NHL season starts, Witt will be in the same situation, and until he actually signs an extension his value won't change.... why would you give up an asset for Witt, a UFA to be before the next NHL season, while not giving one up for Palffy or Kariya? really they should all be treated as UFAs now - unless we hear something different from the NHL that there is a season this year, I just don't see why we would see it any differently?
Well, forget the fact that there is a lockout if you can, if you can't do that, I don't see the need to post in this board or for it to even exist. Of course I wouldn't do this trade if the season is locked out, didn't I make that clear in the initial post?

I'd like to see Witt paired with Jovanovski if he came. Jovanovski always plays good with defensive defenseman (Malik and Lachance). I think Witt is better than Lachance is, and I don't recall Lachance getting bashed very much.

Besides, I don't think Vancouver management really cares what the fans think. They've re-signed Cloutier twice and have kept Sopel on the roster for 3 full seasons.

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01-10-2005, 04:04 AM
  #36
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Witt is an enigma. A few years ago on what a deeper d core Witt was a rock. He reminded me of the great Rod Langway for a few seasons. He did nothing offensively but he was impoosible to get around defensively for a period of time.

About 2-3 years ago he fell apart for half the season and looked like a guy that was about to be traded away for coupons to Jiffy Lube. Since then he's been up and down.

If he ever finds a good situation I think Witt will be a fine #3 defensive defenseman. He has a lot of talent.

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01-10-2005, 10:35 AM
  #37
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Witt is a UFA after come July. So, this trade won't happen at all unless there is a season and a trade deadline. however, just for the sake of the basic idea there is a major reason why the capitals wouldn't do this deal.

No matter how you rate Witt and Sopel a trade involving these two players would open up hole in the Caps defense that can't be filled. The Caps most ready for the NHL young defensemen are Eminger and Morrisonn, both of which are mobile, puck moving defensemen. They are not sure that they have a young defensive defenseman that is ready to make the jump with them.

Based on that alone it makes no sense to trade the one defenseman that they have that can be effective on the penalty kill and in critical minutes at the end of periods and end of games.

Someone suggested that Sopel is a first pair defenseman. Can you see a first defensive pair of Sopel and Morrisonn or Eminger playing against the league's top lines?? they would overrun and torched game in and game out. Malek can't handle that kind of a work load. he is a 3rd pair guy used to playing against opponents 3rd and 4th lines. He would also be overmatched against players like Sundin, Thornton, Jagr and so forth.

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01-10-2005, 11:29 AM
  #38
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Deal seems to be fair.

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01-10-2005, 01:07 PM
  #39
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it may be fair, but it doesn't improve the capitals situation any and you could argue that it makes their defensive zone problems even worse.

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01-10-2005, 01:48 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd
it may be fair, but it doesn't improve the capitals situation any and you could argue that it makes their defensive zone problems even worse.
Even so, If I was the Caps GM I'd take this deal in a second. They have lots of money to spend after dumping Gonchar, Jagr, Lang, that they could use for free agents. They are going to have to overpay Witt to return to the Caps.

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01-10-2005, 06:43 PM
  #41
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you are thinking that the capitals won't have to overpay an nhl defenseman free agent that is at Witt's level or better any more than they would have to overpay Witt??

I'm not convinced that the Caps will have to overpay for Witt...he is a one organEYEzation player that has not said that he wants out. but, even if you are right what tells you that the Caps could sign anyone else good at a fairer price?

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01-10-2005, 06:52 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd
you are thinking that the capitals won't have to overpay an nhl defenseman free agent that is at Witt's level or better any more than they would have to overpay Witt??

I'm not convinced that the Caps will have to overpay for Witt...he is a one organEYEzation player that has not said that he wants out. but, even if you are right what tells you that the Caps could sign anyone else good at a fairer price?
The history between him and the Caps has been shaky the past 2-3 years. Now they are one of the worst teams in the NHL. The only way I can see him returning is if they pay him lots of money.

Did I ever say they could sign another d-man at a fair price? NO.

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01-10-2005, 07:50 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chapel113x
The history between him and the Caps has been shaky the past 2-3 years. Now they are one of the worst teams in the NHL. The only way I can see him returning is if they pay him lots of money.

Did I ever say they could sign another d-man at a fair price? NO.
then...if its going to take "lots of money" to sign any defenseman that is decent, why not keep the guy that knows his way around? Lets also be clear on Witt. He would have been traded at the last trade deadline had he said that he wanted to be traded or had said that he would not resign with the team when he became a free agent. That is exactly what Gonchar said, that he wouldn't resign, and he becomes a free agent this july just like Witt.

Witt apparantly didn't say that. I take from that he must be willing to stay.

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01-10-2005, 11:39 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd
then...if its going to take "lots of money" to sign any defenseman that is decent, why not keep the guy that knows his way around? Lets also be clear on Witt. He would have been traded at the last trade deadline had he said that he wanted to be traded or had said that he would not resign with the team when he became a free agent. That is exactly what Gonchar said, that he wouldn't resign, and he becomes a free agent this july just like Witt.

Witt apparantly didn't say that. I take from that he must be willing to stay.
Because in all likelyhood Witt would not want to return to the Caps. He was stripped of the C, went to arbitration w/ them and lost, among other things. Im almost positive he'll be gone. Almost every Caps fan feels the say way that i've talked to.

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Old
01-11-2005, 08:03 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chapel113x
Typical answer on this board.
typical vancouver trade bait on this board

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Old
01-11-2005, 08:06 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chapel113x
How bout this:

To Washington:
Brent Sopel
Marek Malik
Fedor Fedorov

To Vancouver:
Brendan Witt

This would be pending Scott Niedermayer signing with the Canucks next season. It might be useless, because im pretty sure Witt is an UFA next season. But im just curious.

WE HAVE DEAL?
That's a bad move by Vancouver IMO. Brendan Witt is among the most overrated player on this trade board.

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Old
01-11-2005, 08:09 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
That's a bad move by Vancouver IMO. Brendan Witt is among the most overrated player on this trade board.
100 % agreed. He is tough, but not the defensive all-star some (other Canuck fans) make him out to be.
I wouldn't even do Sopel straight up. Now that might be just me, but Sopel has more trade value than that.

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Old
01-11-2005, 10:44 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andora
typical vancouver trade bait on this board
What a great response! You don't think this trade is fair from a Canucks standpoint? Gimme a break.

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Old
01-12-2005, 05:05 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chapel113x
What a great response! You don't think this trade is fair from a Canucks standpoint? Gimme a break.
what? i don't care about the value, but just going snippy comment for snippy comment

typical response you say, i say typical vancouver trade proposal

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01-12-2005, 05:12 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andora
what? i don't care about the value, but just going snippy comment for snippy comment

typical response you say, i say typical vancouver trade proposal

if you really want a good chuckle, go look at what some canucks fans feel that koltsov can land them.

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