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Lack of Bruins Free Agency Part IV

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07-30-2012, 02:15 PM
  #501
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Originally Posted by Kate08 View Post
How is it possible that every thread you touch turns into a Wideman argument? It's honestly mind-blowing.

Re: the bold...what he COULD HAVE provided. There is no guarantee that he WOULD HAVE provided it. What we do know is what Horton and Campbell provided, and that was a Stanley Cup.
I'll let Krejci, Chara and Bergeron know they did nothing, that Horton gave us a cup.

This keeps happening because people keep providing absurdly oversimplistic reasons to discount the idea that PMd are useful. And many of them center around the perception of Wideman (and to a lesser extent Corvo, but mostly Wideman).

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07-30-2012, 02:16 PM
  #502
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I guess those in the front office who were responsible for trading Wideman were guilty of " confirmation bias" and "group think." You have to be the only one willing to say anything good about Corvo. I remember when we got him many Carolina fans were pitying us.

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07-30-2012, 02:17 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
I'll let Krejci, Chara and Bergeron know they did nothing, that Horton gave us a cup.

This keeps happening because people keep providing absurdly oversimplistic reasons to discount the idea that PMd are useful. And many of them center around the perception of Wideman (and to a lesser extent Corvo, but mostly Wideman).
Yes, because that's precisely what I was saying.

They were the only two that were involved in that trade that were responsible for the Cup. I didn't know that I had to be more specific.

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07-30-2012, 02:17 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
I'll let Krejci, Chara and Bergeron know they did nothing, that Horton gave us a cup.

This keeps happening because people keep providing absurdly oversimplistic reasons to discount the idea that PMd are useful. And many of them center around the perception of Wideman (and to a lesser extent Corvo, but mostly Wideman).
That might be relevant to what she said in some universe, but not this one.

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07-30-2012, 02:19 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by LancelotLink View Post
I guess those in the front office who were responsible for trading Wideman were guilty of " confirmation bias" and "group think." You have to be the only one willing to say anything good about Corvo. I remember when we got him many Carolina fans were pitying us.
Have you ever seen me criticize the trade?

The trade is irrelevant to this. It's about an appraisal of Wideman's value, not about the trade.

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07-30-2012, 02:20 PM
  #506
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
Have you ever seen me criticize the trade?

The trade is irrelevant to this. It's about an appraisal of Wideman's value, not about the trade.
Then Wideman was good for a bit and then really bad for a bit. Fair enough?

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07-30-2012, 02:22 PM
  #507
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Yes, because that's precisely what I was saying.
Actually, it is precisely what you were saying.

If you'd like to requalify your argument, I'm more than open to that. But I' m not going to let you get away with boiling an entire cup run down to X vs Y -- especially because we ALSO don't win that Cup without Tomas Kaberle, who might be the one defenseman we've had in my time here who got a worse rap than Wideman.

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They were the only two that were involved in that trade that were responsible for the Cup. I didn't know that I had to be more specific.
By all means, be more specific. Then I can point out that while Horton played a huge role in getting us TO the finals, which I hasten to add is very laudable, his role once we got there was minimal.

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07-30-2012, 02:24 PM
  #508
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Originally Posted by LancelotLink View Post
Then Wideman was good for a bit and then really bad for a bit. Fair enough?
and now he is gone, and we're all the happier for it. We have a Cup and he doesn't. He is gone, and now Horton is a Bruin, and we're all good with that too.

You gotta move on in your life Dojji. That's the only way to get over Wides. Get out a little. Live. Join a Club.

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07-30-2012, 02:24 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by LancelotLink View Post
Then Wideman was good for a bit and then really bad for a bit. Fair enough?
If you'll clarify that as follows, then we're good.

"Wideman was good for a few years and bad for a few months."

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07-30-2012, 02:25 PM
  #510
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Good enough for me.

I'm still hoping for Iginla at the dealine anyway.

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07-30-2012, 02:29 PM
  #511
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
Actually, it is precisely what you were saying.

If you'd like to requalify your argument, I'm more than open to that. But I' m not going to let you get away with boiling an entire cup run down to X vs Y -- especially because we ALSO don't win that Cup without Tomas Kaberle, who might be the one defenseman we've had in my time here who got a worse rap than Wideman.



By all means, be more specific. Then I can point out that while Horton played a huge role in getting us TO the finals, which I hasten to add is very laudable, his role once we got there was minimal.
Nathan Horton and Gregory Campbell contributed to winning the Stanley Cup. Dennis Wideman did not.

Tomas Kaberle, suck as he may, contributed to winning a Stanley Cup. Dennis Wideman did not.

Hell, even your other binky Blake Wheeler contribtued more to the Cup win than Wideman did, given that he pulled on a Bruins sweater in the Stanley Cup season.

If you are honestly that stuck on the semantics of what I said rather than the point I was making, then there's no point in having this conversation.

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07-30-2012, 02:33 PM
  #512
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I understand the quick trigger finger.....I do. I honestly havent received hand written apologies from Doogs and Stick like I had expected after I said what would happen happened. Its ok...maybe another 7 years.

BJ, you will have to wait I am afraid.

Can't speak for Stick, as for me, should Joe Thornton not make the Hall of Fame, then my hat will be in hand.

But, this is a Hall of Fame career this guy has going on, what can a guy say?

Top 5 in NHL Scoring 4 times. He led the entire NHL one season. He won the Art Ross and the Hart. Only the 3rd player to get 90 assists in back to back seasons. Gretzky and Lemieux were the others.

And did you know that only Ray Bourque can top Jumbo for career Playoff Points should you want to do a Bruins comparison?

And, interestingly enough, it took our Raymond until he was 40, in something like his 22nd season to win it all.

Just some Cliff Claven notes, to freshen up the collegial ribbing that some of us share from the old days

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07-30-2012, 02:37 PM
  #513
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Doji, saying that Wideman wasn't a horrible player in here, is like saying the bible is just a fairy tale in some deep woods of Alabama. Every sensible person knows you're right, but it doesn't matter when your audience has been brain washed. Of course Wideman was a ****** player because he made mistakes that even the greenest of hockey fans could spot. Being an incredibly biased sports fan, there's nothing like it...

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07-30-2012, 02:44 PM
  #514
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Originally Posted by Gruntfuttock View Post
Doji, saying that Wideman wasn't a horrible player in here, is like saying the bible is just a fairy tale in some deep woods of Alabama. Every sensible person knows you're right, but it doesn't matter when your audience has been brain washed. Of course Wideman was a ****** player because he made mistakes that even the greenest of hockey fans could spot. Being an incredibly biased sports fan, there's nothing like it...
Putting aside the trade for a second, and focusing only on Wideman as a player...

He was inconsistent.

He had some good (even very good) stretches, he had some 'eh' stretches, and he had some completely awful stretches.

If you take all of that together he was, overall, on either side of average while he was here.

Now, let's add into the equation what trading him netted:

Trade in an average guy (and a pick) for a top line winger and a 4th line center who is pretty solid? Add into it the fact that those two guys helped (is that better?) deliver a Cup? Huge win.

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07-30-2012, 02:46 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by Kate08 View Post
Putting aside the trade for a second, and focusing only on Wideman as a player...

He was inconsistent.

He had some good (even very good) stretches, he had some 'eh' stretches, and he had some completely awful stretches.

If you take all of that together he was, overall, on either side of average while he was here.

Now, let's add into the equation what trading him netted:

Trade in an average guy (and a pick) for a top line winger and a 4th line center who is pretty solid? Add into it the fact that those two guys helped (is that better?) deliver a Cup? Huge win.
The Bruins winnng the Cup is really the fly in the we should't have traded Wideman and Wheeler ointment.

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07-30-2012, 02:51 PM
  #516
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I thought corvo could be hidden for 15 mins/game and put up 30 points while putting rubber on the net, rushing the puck on the pp and only occasionally being a useless pylon. Instead he couldn't be hidden anywhere, never got shots on net and was a useless pylon most of the time.

Tempered expectations and he still couldn't meet them. But I don't hate the move. Was worth the gamble & now it's time to develop our pmd from within

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07-30-2012, 02:54 PM
  #517
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
The Bruins winnng the Cup is really the fly in the we should't have traded Wideman and Wheeler ointment.
The thing is, I hate the "well we won in 2011" argument. I think it's weak and every season needs to be looked at independently, and the success in 2011 shouldn't be used as an excuse for anything.

The exception to that is moves that made this team better. You don't get much better than winning the Stanley Cup. Any pieces that were moved to ultimately get to that point were, in retrospect, a no-brainer IMO.

Wheeler is a talented guy who can flourish in the right situation. Same can be said for Wideman, to a point. Looking at their full bodies of work in Boston, they were not flourishing here and were shipped out for guys who did and have been flourishing.

Funny how Stuart is rarely brought up in this conversations.

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07-30-2012, 02:56 PM
  #518
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This is an honest question...and not meant to be insulting in the slightest bit...but Dojji, did you ever see Dennis Wideman play? I know for awhile you refused to watch any games.

The problem wasn't his shot blocking totals, or his assist numbers, or anything that you can really see in a stat sheet. It was the awful turnovers, the inability to keep a puck in at the blue line, and the skating issues. In 2010, he handled the puck like a grenade.

I didn't hate him, and I seriously thought the booing was way over the line with him...but he wasn't good at all that year until the Buffalo series.

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07-30-2012, 02:57 PM
  #519
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Funny how Stuart is rarely brought up in this conversations.
I think everyone made their peace with the fact that Stuart needed to go when he went and his successor was handy. McQuaid is a better defenseman and frankly a better fighter. So there's no unfinished business there.

Besides, I'm a big Peverley fan. As I said at the time when I was defending Wheeler -- trade him for fair value, and I'm fine with that. (which is also why I defend Wideman, but don't criticize the trade -- that was a fair trade by any measurement).

That's also why I'm stuck on Wideman and not Wheeler. Wheeler got his due. He's found his situation where he's far better off, so his few remaining supporters can make peace with that. Wideman kinda didn't.

It didn't help that we still have not managed to successfully replace DW6's skillset either. Once we do that I'll be a lot less frantic about it.

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07-30-2012, 03:07 PM
  #520
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This is an honest question...and not meant to be insulting in the slightest bit...but Dojji, did you ever see Dennis Wideman play? I know for awhile you refused to watch any games.

The problem wasn't his shot blocking totals, or his assist numbers, or anything that you can really see in a stat sheet. It was the awful turnovers, the inability to keep a puck in at the blue line, and the skating issues. In 2010, he handled the puck like a grenade.

I didn't hate him, and I seriously thought the booing was way over the line with him...but he wasn't good at all that year until the Buffalo series.
I didn't hate him and also thought the boo-ing was way over the lines at time.

That said, the guy simply wasn't good for us at the end. He needed to go, he went, and we got some great pieces in return.

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07-30-2012, 03:31 PM
  #521
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Originally Posted by Kate08 View Post
How is it possible that every thread you touch turns into a Wideman argument? It's honestly mind-blowing.

Re: the bold...what he COULD HAVE provided. There is no guarantee that he WOULD HAVE provided it. What we do know is what Horton and Campbell provided, and that was a Stanley Cup.
You got it.

No clue why this dude needs to bring up Wides. (Im his biggest fan other than Dojji too and I think the Horton deal was great.)

Wides got Norris votes 08/09...and carried crappy ass Hunny in the playoffs while leading us in scoring 09/10. What happened in between Dojji? Answer honestly. Ill do it for you.

The guy didn't take care of his body like a pro athlete should (talk of smoking etc) not to mention he had some injuries which made him slower. He lost his confidence. And after all that the fans turned on him. This isn't an opinion its what happened and a year after being a Norris outsider he disgraced himself and got booed by his own fans.

Now I support the team and was disgusted by this. Since at the time our soon to be Cup heros like Ference and Seidenberg were not on the ice while Wideman was. The crap they got in the Buffalo series was horrible because they were actually playing unlike the soon to be heros (not their fault or anything but DW and MH were on the ice DS and AF were not.)

Give it a rest Dojji Wideman had 50 truly miserable games while the rest of the team was sucking just as bad and he stuck out like a sore thumb during that period. You probably didn't even go to any of the great playoff games that year to truly appreciate him (G3 Buffalo G6 Buffalo G1 Philly were all simply amazing.)

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07-30-2012, 03:54 PM
  #522
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And to think there used to be threads / posts here about how Wideman may be our best defenseman (Yes, Chara included) and also ones saying he should have been a Norris contender and was a legit first pairing guy....

I also think if you swapped out Kaberle for Wideman we still would have won a Cup. No way we get that far however IMO if not for Nasty Nate's clutchness...

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07-30-2012, 03:57 PM
  #523
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And to think there used to be threads / posts here about how Wideman may be our best defenseman (Yes, Chara included) and also ones saying he should have been a Norris contender and was a legit first pairing guy....

I also think if you swapped out Kaberle for Wideman we still would have won a Cup. No way we get that far however IMO if not for Nasty Nate's clutchness...
Not as much as you'd like to believe, IMO. People still understood that Chara was the league's best defenseman in '09. Only Lidstrom came close that season.

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07-30-2012, 03:59 PM
  #524
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Another Wideman suckfest going on I see.

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07-30-2012, 04:01 PM
  #525
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
And to think there used to be threads / posts here about how Wideman may be our best defenseman (Yes, Chara included) and also ones saying he should have been a Norris contender and was a legit first pairing guy....

I also think if you swapped out Kaberle for Wideman we still would have won a Cup. No way we get that far however IMO if not for Nasty Nate's clutchness...
I wasn't around then...but does that say more about fans kicking him on his way out of town, or how much his play suffered towards the end from his height of production here?

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