HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Colorado Avalanche
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Erik Johnson

View Poll Results: How many points do you think EJ puts up this season?
Less than 25 18 16.36%
25-30 16 14.55%
31-35 39 35.45%
36-40 22 20.00%
More than 40 15 13.64%
Voters: 110. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-18-2013, 12:48 PM
  #51
Bender
TheHockeyProspector
 
Bender's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,949
vCash: 7658
Not sure how anyone can pass judgement on the trade YET since a BIG, BIG part of that trade was Duncan Siemens at #11. (Imagine if the Blues had finished 10th we would of had the 29th pick last draft)

He's a bit part of this trade, no question. If Siemens becomes a solid #3/#4 guy on top of what you got for EJ, depending on what happens with Rattie, that's how this trade will be judged.

Stewart and his inconsistent play/effort is going to be the Blues' problem to deal with now. He's having a good season so far, stats wise, making $3M per and is an upcoming RFA. Do they pay him significantly more than that over the long-term knowing he can disappear for long stretches? We'll see.

Bender is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 12:48 PM
  #52
Avs71
Registered User
 
Avs71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,151
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
We may want to change the name of this thread, as that's really not the point we're discussing now. I suspect as is, it's going to rile some people up.
Indeed. If a mod could edit "the bust" out of the title, that would be delightful.

I'll respond to you once I'm at my computer.

Avs71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 12:49 PM
  #53
ZenMaster*
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 555
vCash: 500
St.Louis has one of the most sophisticated scouting/development departments in the league. If they give up and trade a 1st overall pick, there is a damn good reason.

ZenMaster* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 12:52 PM
  #54
S E P H
@Krzysztof_WHL
 
S E P H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Avs Country!
Country: Poland
Posts: 4,441
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenMaster View Post
St.Louis has one of the most sophisticated scouting/development departments in the league. If they give up and trade a 1st overall pick, there is a damn good reason.
Actually they're scouting department under Kakalainen was one of the best in the league, we made the trade with St. Louis when Kakalainen was coaching or GMing Jokerit. Now they're scouting department without him is still good, but I consider ours better or on par. IMO. Giving up their 1st in 2011 was not because they "knew" something, but because they "had" to.

Drafting Landeskog over Larsson is knowing something.

S E P H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 12:56 PM
  #55
Elever
Hth
 
Elever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,459
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by S E P H View Post
So not watching the player play, but using history to judge your opinion is pretty ludicrous.
Oh come on look at every past recent draft when a dman's been drafted high. I'd rather have Duchene than Hedman, Toews/Backstrom and possibly J Staal instead of EJ (though in the case of J Staal, we need EJ more). And the '08 one's a bit different because the forwards were meh and dmen were deep but that's no the case this time. If Doughty/Stamkos were both equal then I would've gone with the fwd.

Listen, this is not a competent organization. They might mess up the development of a big dman, a fwd is a safer pick.

And damn St. Louis picked up Rattie with that 2nd pick they got back, he might end up being as good or better than Siemens for all I know. I'd still make that trade for Johnson but my point about the Avs not being a team that should draft a dman high I still stand by.

Elever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 12:57 PM
  #56
Freudian
Patty likes beef
 
Freudian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Sweden
Posts: 29,121
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs71 View Post
Indeed. If a mod could edit "the bust" out of the title, that would be delightful.

I'll respond to you once I'm at my computer.
You can do that yourself. Edit post -> Go advanced.

Freudian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 01:07 PM
  #57
S E P H
@Krzysztof_WHL
 
S E P H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Avs Country!
Country: Poland
Posts: 4,441
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kloparren View Post
Oh come on look at every past recent draft when a dman's been drafted high. I'd rather have Duchene than Hedman, Toews/Backstrom and possibly J Staal instead of EJ (though in the case of J Staal, we need EJ more). And the '08 one's a bit different because the forwards were meh and dmen were deep but that's no the case this time. If Doughty/Stamkos were both equal then I would've gone with the fwd.
Actually if we had the 2nd overall pick I would still pick Hedman over Duchene. Hedman's progression so far this year is absolutely amazing and probably will be a very solid #2 that has ability to play #1 during injures. While Stamkos and Tavares are much better players than Hedman or Doughty/Bogosian.

As you said you can not justify picking a forward over a defenseman because every draft is different. I agree about Toews over EJ (Would take EJ over Backstrom), but again that is such a small sample size that forward > defenseman for 1st overall is more of a stereotype than actual data. Also I consider Jones to have the potential to be better than EJ or Doughty.

Quote:
Listen, this is not a competent organization. They might mess up the development of a big dman, a fwd is a safer pick.

And damn St. Louis picked up Rattie with that 2nd pick they got back, he might end up being as good or better than Siemens for all I know. I'd still make that trade for Johnson but my point about the Avs not being a team that should draft a dman high I still stand by.
Again here you are telling that it is more of the organization that screws up on a prospect than drafting a defenseman 1st overall. I agree that Avs do have some history of not developing defensemen well, but that shouldn't have any part of scouting who the best player available is; which is Jones.

You can also say that the 28 (Excluding Edm/Col) teams made a huge mistake passing over Rattie, if he's going to be that good of a player.

S E P H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 01:11 PM
  #58
cgf
Registered User
 
cgf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,871
vCash: 500
EJ has shown he can be dominant when he's gotten pissed off and gone out and involved himself in the play. Unfortunately he can't do that with the crap we've paired him up with, he has to look out for his partner because he's never played with someone capable of covering for him. So EJ has had to focus on a shutdown, careful role, and he's been really good at it. But until he gets a partner that allows him some freedom to get involved we'll never see that dominant "I'm going to run you over, anywhere on the ice" EJ that we've caught glimpses of.

I loved Shatty, was one of his most vocal fans once he finally got his shot with the team, and still miss having him, but I make that trade any day of the week, even if we didn't have Barrie.

cgf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 02:35 PM
  #59
ABasin
SelkeCaliber Defense
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,721
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender View Post
Not sure how anyone can pass judgement on the trade YET since a BIG, BIG part of that trade was Duncan Siemens at #11. (Imagine if the Blues had finished 10th we would of had the 29th pick last draft)

He's a bit part of this trade, no question. If Siemens becomes a solid #3/#4 guy on top of what you got for EJ, depending on what happens with Rattie, that's how this trade will be judged.
It's true that we won't completely know the long term ramifications of this trade for awhile yet, though I confess that I'm a little amused at how the analysis of this trade has gone from "EJ's the best player in the trade, clear win by the Avs", to "we need to wait and see how EJ's continues to develop", to "we won't know until EJ gets different defense partners", to "Duncan Siemens is a BIG part of the trade".

Each team has a promising prospect out there, and sure - one of them may turn into some kind of really good player at some point (BTW, StL's guy is top 5 in WHL scoring two years in a row). But did we have to wait for 10 years or something to judge the Forsberg or Roy trades? At some point - and I think it'll be soon - we'll really have no choice but to simply call it what it is. Even if that's a tough pill to swallow.

I find it a little hard to believe that Duncan Siemens is going to be the player who tips this trade decisively one way or the other, particularly since it's currently in StL's favor, and the prospect they got in the trade looks pretty good also. I think the only player who can really tip this trade in the Avs favor is Erik Johnson, and he'd need to up his offensive game very very significantly to do that tipping.

And BTW, can you imagine if the 3 NHL guys continue to trend the way they've been trending *and* Rattie becomes a really good NHLer and Siemens doesn't? Holy s**t, will this trade look bad.

ABasin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 03:13 PM
  #60
CalderKing21
Darth Calder
 
CalderKing21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Birmingham, AL
Country: United States
Posts: 1,935
vCash: 281
people who say the Blues won the trade are only looking at the records since(and they had a significant coaching change to get to where they are now). Shattenkirk is a really nice offensive defensemen but he still can't play physically and help shut down the opposing teams top guy.
he's good but he's what the Blues needed, not what the Avs did.

Rattie is playing nicely for them in the minors but i don't see how a small forward with a finesse game skews the numbers enough to make it more than a wash.

if the Avs will actually go out and spend money on a decent team(even with Sacco as coach) no one would continue to spout about St Louis winning.

CalderKing21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 03:21 PM
  #61
Avs71
Registered User
 
Avs71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,151
vCash: 500
To add to the talk of the trade being worth it or not, it is obviously very premature, but if Barrie keeps looking better and better like he has, then I think this trade will be more as planned for Colorado. It looks like it was still an overpayment, but when it comes down to it I'd still prefer EJ to Shattenkirk. On top of that if Barrie indeed turns out to be a 40+ point defenceman, then I would take EJ/Barrie all day every day over Shattenkirk/Barrie.

Abasin is right though, unless Johnson gets back to being a 35+ point defenceman, and is able to keep his strong defensive play, then it was a lot (too much) to give up for a shutdown defenceman.

That said, this trade could still look really good when all is said and done. So far what we have seen from EJ is his defensive game improve greatly, but his scoring go down. We know he has all the tools, but is not a player who is going to be a game changer shift in and shift out on his own. That's why I still have really high hopes that once there is a coaching change/better partner, that we will truly see what we have in him. It's not like were hoping for him to become a faster skater, a better passer, not be a defensive liability, or bigger at 24 years old. Were hoping for a little more offensive production from a guy who has had it in the past.

In 203 games with the Blues, he has 91 points (.448 ppg).
In 106 games with the Avs, he has 37 points. (.349 ppg).

We haven't seen him play in any other system than Sacco's. And lets be honest, it is not drawn up to get scoring from defencemen. When EJ first came over he was told to just go play his game and was basically given free reign. He actually had pretty good offensive production during that period. Then the following season he buys into the new system, and what a shock his point totals drop dramatically.

On a side note, look at how the Preds use Weber on the powerplay. He doesn't have to carry the puck up, he doesn't have to quarterback it, he just stands and waits until they give him the puck and he rips a slapshot. That's how EJ should be used. He's being wasted being used as the passer/ shooting from the center or righ side of the ice.

Avs71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 03:27 PM
  #62
shadow1
Registered User
 
shadow1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 11,302
vCash: 1210
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalderKing21 View Post
if the Avs will actually go out and spend money on a decent team(even with Sacco as coach) no one would continue to spout about St Louis winning.
The difference in cap hit between the Blues and Avalanche's roster is less than 400k.

shadow1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 03:32 PM
  #63
Avs71
Registered User
 
Avs71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,151
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow1 View Post
The difference in cap hit between the Blues and Avalanche's roster is less than 400k.
Wait for Shattenkirk's and Pietrangelo's new deals.

Avs71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 03:38 PM
  #64
shadow1
Registered User
 
shadow1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 11,302
vCash: 1210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs71 View Post
Wait for Shattenkirk's and Pietrangelo's new deals.
Irrelevant. The implication was that the Blues are better than the Avalanche, at least in part, because of the Avalanche's unwillingness to spend money.

shadow1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 09:29 PM
  #65
Heebs21*
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 619
vCash: 500
We over-paid. Plain and simple.

Heebs21* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 09:31 PM
  #66
Avsboy
Registered User
 
Avsboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,271
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by reavesthemaniac View Post
jeez, I'm sorry you Av's fans got stuck with EJ.

We get Shatty and Stewart (perhaps our best 2 players this year) and you guys get Jmac Ej and a pick. dang.
EJ's been great. Fantastic defensively. A beast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
We over-paid. Plain and simple.
We got our no.1 defenseman. I disagree.

Avsboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 09:34 PM
  #67
Heebs21*
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 619
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avsboy View Post
We got our no.1 defenseman. I disagree.
Well if you think Erik Johnson is a #1 then you are right.

Being the best Dman on a team full of scrubs on the blue line means nothing.

He is a good Dman but he is not worth what we paid for him.

Heebs21* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 09:36 PM
  #68
Barklez
Registered User
 
Barklez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Toon Town
Country: Canada
Posts: 250
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
We over-paid. Plain and simple.
I'm happy giving what we gave just to ensure that I see EJ's toothless grin on ads and promotions instead of manbearpig and early-onset-balding-sunken-eyes guy.

Barklez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 09:38 PM
  #69
S E P H
@Krzysztof_WHL
 
S E P H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Avs Country!
Country: Poland
Posts: 4,441
vCash: 50
Why are people looking at the present when the winner of this trade is like 2-3 years away?

S E P H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 09:38 PM
  #70
Colorado Avalanche
Registered User
 
Colorado Avalanche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Lieto
Country: Finland
Posts: 15,536
vCash: 500
You can see the difference in scoreboard when we are missing Johnson. Its not pretty. Just shows how important guy he is.

Colorado Avalanche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 09:39 PM
  #71
RockLobster
Moderator
Beatles Guru
 
RockLobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Kansas
Country: Germany
Posts: 11,984
vCash: 905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
We over-paid. Plain and simple.
I don't know WHY people seem to think a #1 Defensemen NEEDS to be scoring, that's what we have Forwards for. Yes Shattenkirk is producing offense, but we SAW firsthand how his Defensive game was, and it was lacking to say the least. He has a great offensive mind, no doubt, but he's still a bit on the small side and again, we SAW how easily he could be taken off the puck.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see EJ produce, but I'd MUCH rather see EJ continue developing his defensive Mean-Streak that he has been using.

He's been turning into a much better Defender.

He's what I want our #1 Dman to be, I'm perfectly happy with this. And on the offensive side, he's still got a nice shot, he needs a better PP system to unleash it, and needs to get it past the initial defender and he'll get more confidence and he'll start scoring more.

__________________


Thought I'd been in love before, but in my heart I wanted more. Seems like all I really was doing was waiting for you - John Lennon/The Beatles
RockLobster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 09:44 PM
  #72
Congo Jack
Hello M'Lady
 
Congo Jack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Candy Apple Island
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,663
vCash: 500
The only part of that deal I hate is that silent Jay left. Besides that, I'm happy with what we got.

Congo Jack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 09:47 PM
  #73
danmcn12
Radioactive
 
danmcn12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Boston
Posts: 3,524
vCash: 500
What happens if Elliot breaks out like Shatty did? Makes the trade a no brainier for the Avs. If Elliot could play with EJ and did breakout that would be great for him.

danmcn12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 09:48 PM
  #74
S E P H
@Krzysztof_WHL
 
S E P H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Avs Country!
Country: Poland
Posts: 4,441
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by STEVE RANDESKOGAH View Post
The only part of that deal I hate is that silent Jay left. Besides that, I'm happy with what we got.
Yup,

Beast of a defense in Johnson
Siemens who has the potential to be a top 3 shutdown defenseman

for

Streaky Stewart
Amazing Shattenkirk
Top 6 potential in Rattie

Only thing that is missing is McClement who wanted to move closer to home, probably would've left St. Louis as a UFA as well. It just looks bad due to Shattenkirk's point total currently, nothing else.

S E P H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 09:49 PM
  #75
Avsboy
Registered User
 
Avsboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,271
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by danmcn12 View Post
What happens if Elliot breaks out like Shatty did? Makes the trade a no brainier for the Avs. If Elliot could play with EJ and did breakout that would be great for him.
Barrie already doing that.

Avsboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:39 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.