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Why do some posters think Ruff randomly changes lines without reason?

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Old
07-12-2012, 04:23 PM
  #1
joshjull
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Why do some posters think Ruff randomly changes lines without reason?

I've seen it brought up multiple times. Some jhave asserted he just randomly changes up lines for no reason orbreaks up a successful one after even juts one bad period. That he breaks up successful lines and kills team chemistry. Its actually the other way around. He break things up because there isn't successful team chemistry and tries new things because the lines as a whole aren't working.

When this team has success that doesn't happen and frankly I'm amazed posters don't see this. Since its seems pretty obvious

In 05-06

Other than when injuries hit you knew Hecht/Briere/Dumont would be together, same with Drury/Grier and Kotalik/Connolly/Max

Then in 06-07

Hecht/Briere/Pommer and Vanek/Roy/Max then Staffrd were lines all year long.


07-08 until Roy's quad injury

-Vanek/Roy and Hecht/Pommer were together for most of that time. Much to the displeasure of many fans in the case of Vanek/Roy

During this time frame we hardly had success like we did in 05-06 + 06-07 so its not really shocking the lines were changed up to try and find something that would conssistantly work. It was made more difficult with Connolly being injured quite a bit and not having the talent we prviously had.

Jan 2011 until the end of the 10/11 season.

Vanek/Pommer
Ennis/Stafford
Gerbe/Goose

Those pairs were together and the anchors of our top 3 lines while we had sustained success.

11-12

With the team struggling to find a fit for Leino, Ennis struggled then got hurt. We never really had the Ennis/Stafford supporting line to help the Vanek/Pommer combo. So the lines behind them were a mix and match as injuries hit and players struggled.

The when Ennis returned from injury a 2nd time we had 3 lines that stayed the same for 13gms up until the deadline

Vanek/Roy/Pommer
Leino/Ennis/Stafford
Gerbe/Goose/Kaleta.

Then after a few games of working Hodgson in we ended the season with 12+ gms with these lines

Leino/Roy/Pommer
Tropp/Hodgson/Vanek
Foligno/Ennis/Stafford


Once Ennis/Stafford found chemistry last season Ruff has made a point of keeping them together. Same with Vanek/Pommer from Jan 1st of last season until a few games after the deadline when they went with 3 lines. And that was about getting Vanek going.


I have to ask when Ruff randomly just dismantled a lineup enjoying sustained success? Because everything I've seen says its the opposite. Post co-captains we didn't have much sustained success. But when we did the lines stayed as they were (accept for injuries).

This complaint has always struck me as being more about wanting to see certain lines stay together and given a chance to grow than about breaking up success groupings.


Last edited by joshjull: 07-13-2012 at 01:42 AM.
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07-12-2012, 04:29 PM
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haseoke39
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Because he switches lines much more frequently than other coaches. There will be regular changes from period to period and game to game.

Naturally, he switches lines when players struggle (not for literally no reason), but there's a degree of that switching that I think is helpful and a larger degree that I think is harmful and doesn't allow players to develop chemistry.

Sometimes the most productive thing is to identify players with complementing skillsets or players that have played well together in the past and let them play together long enough to develop good chemistry, even when they're struggling presently. I don't think Ruff exercises that patience. I think Ruff is very quick to break up groups that have a bad period or a bad game, and the end result is a less effective roster.

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07-12-2012, 04:36 PM
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not a very good coach

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07-12-2012, 04:38 PM
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As far as where I'm concerned, it's more of a meme to joke about rather than something necessarily substantive. Sometimes I think he should change lines when he doesn't, and sometimes I think he should keep lines together when he doesn't. But generally what he's doing seems the best course of action in so far as necessary shake-ups.

It may be observational bias but it seems to me when he changes lines in-game it generally results in better play from the team.

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07-12-2012, 04:41 PM
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It's not that he breaks up lines that might be doing well, it's that he will change lines up from period to period, shift to shift. This is a knee jerk reaction that makes a judgement on a hideously small sample size. It also prevents line mates from developing chemistry, thus resulting in more poor performance and more line changes.

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07-12-2012, 04:45 PM
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joshjull
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyH3aven View Post
It's not that he breaks up lines that might be doing well, it's that he will change lines up from period to period, shift to shift. This is a knee jerk reaction that makes a judgement on a hideously small sample size. It also prevents line mates from developing chemistry, thus resulting in more poor performance and more line changes.
Holy hyperbole.

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07-12-2012, 04:53 PM
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I'm still waiting for the poster that tells me when Ruff changed up lines for no reason or broke up a successful line for no reason.

Because thats what is frequently asserted and what I'm asking about.

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07-12-2012, 05:00 PM
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haseoke39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I'm still waiting for the poster that tells me when Ruff changed up lines for no reason or broke up a successful line for no reason.

Because thats what is frequently asserted and what I'm asking about.
Maybe you need to go and find somebody who says this and challenge them when this is actually said, rather than tell the world what it thinks and then complain when the world doesn't agree.

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07-12-2012, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I'm still waiting for the poster that tells me when Ruff changed up lines for no reason or broke up a successful line for no reason.

Because thats what is frequently asserted and what I'm asking about.
He does break lines, not pairs very often.

But honestly, its not like he has had super stars very often in his coaching career so its not really a huge reason to be upset with him.

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07-12-2012, 05:05 PM
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joshjull
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Maybe you need to go and find somebody who says this and challenge them when this is actually said, rather than tell the world what it thinks and then complain when the world doesn't agree.
I have and decided it would be better to not sidetrack other threads off their original topic. Also spare me the personal ********.

Feel free to move along if you don't like the thread topic and can't actually offer a counterpoint.

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07-12-2012, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I have and decided it would be better to not sidetrack other threads off their original topic. Also spare me the personal ********.

Feel free to move along if you don't like the thread topic and can't actually offer a counterpoint.
He isny offering a counterpoint because there is no point to counter. No ones said he breaks up successful lines. He just often changes struggling ones

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07-12-2012, 05:56 PM
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joshjull
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Because he switches lines much more frequently than other coaches.
Not true


Quote:
There will be regular changes from period to period and game to game.
also not true



Quote:
Naturally, he switches lines when players struggle (not for literally no reason), but there's a degree of that switching that I think is helpful and a larger degree that I think is harmful and doesn't allow players to develop chemistry.
This is so vague its meaningless.



Quote:
Sometimes the most productive thing is to identify players with complementing skillsets or players that have played well together in the past and let them play together long enough to develop good chemistry, even when they're struggling presently.
If players have had success together in the past they don't need to develop chemistry since they already had it.

Quote:
I don't think Ruff exercises that patience. I think Ruff is very quick to break up groups that have a bad period or a bad game, and the end result is a less effective roster
Why should he keep a line together thats playing poorly, has chemistry issues and has never been together before in a game we are losing/playing poorly in?

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07-12-2012, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Why would he keep a line together thats playing poorly, has chemistry issues and has never been together before in a game we are losing/playing poorly?
I guess the argument is that they don't get a chance to develop chemistry because they're broken apart too soon...in which case the follow up question is "how much time is enough before you eat your losses and move on?"

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07-12-2012, 06:02 PM
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joshjull
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Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
He isny offering a counterpoint because there is no point to counter. No ones said he breaks up successful lines. He just often changes struggling ones
Thats not remotely how Ruff is viewed by his detractors. They feel he is constantly messing with the lines and ruining team chemistry.

I'm asking when this has happened. Because in order for that to be the case he would have to be breaking up successful lines.

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07-12-2012, 06:04 PM
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haseoke39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Not true

True.

also not true

True.



This is so vague its meaningless.

If you need 10 apples to fill your basket, 1 apple is too few, and 70 is too many. Switching lines sometimes is good, switching lines too much is bad. You can do this.



If players have had success together in the past they don't need to develop chemistry since they already had it.

No. Players can develop chemistry and then lose it again.

Why should he keep a line together thats playing poorly, has chemistry issues and has never been together before in a game we are losing/playing poorly in?

Because the alternative might be to continue shuffling between a dozen different variations of lines with the same exact problems, rather than committing to a sensible configuration for long enough to tell if the players can learn to anticipate each other.

bolded.

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07-12-2012, 06:09 PM
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DixonWard15
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Its one of the few things a coach can do to change the flow of the game, also with a full bench and penalties lines are going to be constantly changing during the game. Its one of the best parts of hockey, the teams just go out and run completely drawn up plays with certain personnel packages.

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07-12-2012, 06:14 PM
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joshjull
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
I guess the argument is that they don't get a chance to develop chemistry because they're broken apart too soon...in which case the follow up question is "how much time is enough before you eat your losses and move on?"
If only this was actually how the debate was framed.


The following is not directed at you

I find it fascinating that there seems to be a collective amnesia by some or at the very least severe backtracking. I've read in multiple posts in multiple threads over the years with comments like.... "I like that line but we know one bad period and its gone" or "we all know Ruff doesn't keep lines together" or "Ruff likes to break up his lines and doesn't like to have set lines". None of which is true.

Many of his detractors put forth an imagine of a coach who is waiting for any excuse to break up his lines. That he doesn't keep set lines together. I know we all see these posts. Yet I'm, being told I'm imagining it.


Last edited by joshjull: 07-12-2012 at 11:53 PM.
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07-12-2012, 06:29 PM
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Good topic.

A theory I have is that he expects his players to cover each other's responsibilities (know what they are supposed to do for the patch of ice they occupy) And that promotes a higher level of interchangeability between players. I'm just guessing here but that would seem to give him more flexibility to change up line combos.

I do think he's sometimes a bit too discerning and quick on the draw vis a vis who has their legs and is playing well versus who does not/isn't. And at the same time, he will stick too long with a pairing/threesome that just isn't working.

Less seriously......

Then also the who is in Lindy's dog house this night, week, month theory of line combos.

And finally, maybe he's just a line tinkerer and just can't help himself (call it an obsession!).

Whatever, he has his reasons and it does not appear that he feels he needs to justify them to us.

(Actually, I give him kudo's for sticking with FES through the last 1/4 of the season - even if that was a bit of a no brainer).

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07-12-2012, 06:32 PM
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joshjull
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
bolded.
You do realize repeating a falsehood doesn't make it true.

-Its false that he does this more than other coaches. In fact I think your lack of league wide knowledge is showing again. Its common tactic used by all coaches when a team is struggling.

-Its also false that he makes these line changes every game and every period. How do make such daft assertions? Anyone thats watched the team knows this isn't the case. I've already pointed to several stretches of success when the lines didn't change. Hell the last 14 games there were no changes. Can't you remember back that far?

So at the end we are left with you complaining that lines that have no chemistry and no history aren't given enough time to gel. Which is a fair point to make but far different than asserting his lines are a constant revolving cast of players on each line.

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07-12-2012, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Because he switches lines much more frequently than other coaches. There will be regular changes from period to period and game to game.
This actually only happens in your own mind. Please reference the games and periods and the changes that have led you to this belief.

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07-12-2012, 06:47 PM
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I think one can nitpick the occasional line shuffle by Ruff, but on the whole I think he understands his players, who to combine into units, and when to break'em up.

But then again, if Josh keeps dismantling popular hybrid (part myth, part straw-man, part fact) "truths" around here, we might run out of things to talk about or say.

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07-12-2012, 06:48 PM
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joshjull
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Originally Posted by slip View Post
I think one can nitpick the occasional line shuffle by Ruff, but on the whole I think he understands his players, who to combine into units, and when to break'em up.

But then again, if Josh keeps dismantling popular hybrid (part myth, part straw-man, part fact) "truths" around here, we might run out of things to talk about or say.


Well done

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07-12-2012, 06:53 PM
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haseoke39
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This actually only happens in your own mind. Please reference the games and periods and the changes that have led you to this belief.
Sure. Let me get out my vast notes breaking down shift by shift throughout the season who played with who, so I can match your level of detailed analysis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
You do realize repeating a falsehood doesn't make it true.

-Its false that he does this more than other coaches. In fact I think your lack of league wide knowledge is showing again. Its common tactic used by all coaches when a team is struggling.

-Its also false that he makes these line changes every game and every period. How do make such daft assertions? Anyone thats watched the team knows this isn't the case. I've already pointed to several stretches of success when the lines didn't change. Hell the last 14 games there were no changes. Can't you remember back that far?

So at the end we are left with you complaining that lines that have no chemistry and no history aren't given enough time to gel. Which is a fair point to make but far different than asserting his lines are a constant revolving cast of players on each line.
Yeah, so you cite nothing, I cite nothing, and we both have different subjective perceptions. They don't keep stats on this stuff. I don't expect to convince you of something there isn't any recorded data on, but then again, I didn't make the thread calling out everyone whose opinion was different from mine. You're just as guilty of wanting to simply repeat something until it's true as I am. And if this thread goes for twenty pages, that's going to be the point of no resolution it keeps returning to.

There's not much discussion worth having in a thread that just challenges everybody to prove something that can neither be proven nor disproven. You just gotta accept and respect that people perceive the thing that's never been measured differently.

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07-12-2012, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Sure. Let me get out my vast notes breaking down shift by shift throughout the season who played with who, so I can match your level of detailed analysis.



Yeah, so you cite nothing, I cite nothing, and we both have different subjective perceptions. They don't keep stats on this stuff. I don't expect to convince you of something there isn't any recorded data on, but then again, I didn't make the thread calling out everyone whose opinion was different from mine. You're just as guilty of wanting to simply repeat something until it's true as I am. And if this thread goes for twenty pages, that's going to be the point of no resolution it keeps returning to.

There's not much discussion worth having in a thread that just challenges everybody to prove something that can neither be proven nor disproven. You just gotta accept and respect that people perceive the thing that's never been measured differently.
Whoa. This is the most rational thing I've seen on HF Boards, possibly the internet.

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07-12-2012, 08:07 PM
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Yeah I guess I'll take next in line for Josh's @#$% session. A couple things first...

1- I don't think Ruff breaks up lines when they are successful, only when they struggle or as a result of breaking up another line that's struggling, or from injury of course.

2- Keeping pairs together is virtually impossible to avoid if a coach is going to keep any semblence of a logical line-up, given the usual top-two/bottom two set-up. So the fact that Ruff has kept pairs together doesn't say much to me.

I've watched about 90% of games since 2005-06 (when I got Center Ice). Prior to that I didn't get to watch games after 1997 due to leaving town. I started to view a penchant for line juggling around 2007. Since then my rough estimate of success rate is around 15%. That's how often I think a line change has worked. The other 85% seems like mostly no difference and sometimes a worse result. For me, what I'd rather see is Ruff allowing players to stick together through slumps (not always, but more). I think the long-term benefit would be at least as beneficial as the rare short-term benefits that I've seen.

I've made some references to Ruff's line changing around here, sometimes in a serious tone, sometimes joking, but not because I think he does it for no reason. Regardless, I can get annoyed with it if I want to, and even post about it too. Crazy I know, but I don't see much problem with it unless I start being an @#$ with people about it.

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