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Do the Habs need defense depth?

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Old
07-13-2012, 08:07 AM
  #26
MTL-rules
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Originally Posted by shack23 View Post
Why do Canadien fans insist on using Markov's name ? He is finished, his career is over, why do you not understand that ? You may as well add the names of Robinson, Savard and LaPointe to that list for all the good it will do.
Because he'll be our no1 defenceman all year long.

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07-13-2012, 08:07 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I never said to trade Emelin who is believe is a top 4 defensman. Looking at Diaz, Kaberle, Weber, St. Denis etc, there isn't anyone here other than maybe Kaberle (yes he can be useful) who can step in and replace the guy ahead of him and do a better job now or in the future. When you talk about depth on a team you're talking about guys who can fit into the top 4 and be useful players and there isn't much of a drop off in talent. As it is now IMO, there's a huge drop off in talent after Markov, PK, Gorges and Emelin.

As for Diaz, he and Weber are very similar type players so why have both? We have Kaberle, PK and Markov as our our offensive defenders. Where do Diaz and Weber fit on this team. What do they bring that's so compelling that another type of defensman cant bring. I'd rather trade one or a combo of them for a shut down defensman who can battle and clear the front of the net. I think that's a bigger need than anything Weber or Diaz has to offer for the Habs. Can they be good players for another team, yes, but neither is as useful to Montreal IMHO.
I really, really don't understand this infatuation with Emelin. He didn't even have that great of a season, not better than Diaz.

I love the guy, don't get me wrong. But it's like everybody is penciling him in as a top-4 dman. He has done nothing to make me believe he has that position acquired. He has a lot to prove.

As for trading Kaberle, Diaz, Weber and St-Denis, I have no idea what you expect to get from those guys. Kaberle is waiver fodder, Diaz has more value to us than he has to anyone else, Weber and St-Denis have no market value and our best bet is to hope they have a good season so other teams noticed them.

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07-13-2012, 08:09 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by shack23 View Post
Why do Canadien fans insist on using Markov's name ? He is finished, his career is over, why do you not understand that ? You may as well add the names of Robinson, Savard and LaPointe to that list for all the good it will do.
How do you know that?

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07-13-2012, 08:13 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Gabe84 View Post
I really, really don't understand this infatuation with Emelin. He didn't even have that great of a season, not better than Diaz.

I love the guy, don't get me wrong. But it's like everybody is penciling him in as a top-4 dman. He has done nothing to make me believe he has that position acquired. He has a lot to prove.

As for trading Kaberle, Diaz, Weber and St-Denis, I have no idea what you expect to get from those guys. Kaberle is waiver fodder, Diaz has more value to us than he has to anyone else, Weber and St-Denis have no market value and our best bet is to hope they have a good season so other teams noticed them.
It's easy to understand for me, he can hit and he's a bit vicious. We have been craving guys like that. The rest of his game started quite slow but improved over the season. I agree with you that he has a lot to prove still, but the chemistry with Markov might make him a top 4...it's not because he's a top 4 quality guy.

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07-13-2012, 08:14 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I wasn't talking about those types of players but rather younger players who can eventually be a top 4 player but don't have the time or the experience for the role right now. Someone who as I said above can fill in a pinch but isn't relied on for the bulk of the work. There are a lot of good serviceable defensmen around the league who can do that who aren't Sopel, Mara, etc. Franson is a guy who I'd go after. Top 4 guy in Nashville but injuries held him back in Toronto, Hjarmalsson, Carle, Allen etc etc. guys who can fill out the bottom pairing but aren't going to be a liability.

So again, I think we have quantity but not much quality, yet. That can easily change with a trade and signing or two.
I won't argue with you that these guys would be great on a bottom-pairing. But we're not really talking about serviceable defensemen anymore with some of the salaries involved (3.5-5.5 range for the last 3 you mentioned)

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07-13-2012, 08:18 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shack23 View Post
Why do Canadien fans insist on using Markov's name ? He is finished, his career is over, why do you not understand that ? You may as well add the names of Robinson, Savard and LaPointe to that list for all the good it will do.
How so? When did he announce his retirement?

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07-13-2012, 08:23 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Paul Dipietro View Post
I won't argue with you that these guys would be great on a bottom-pairing. But we're not really talking about serviceable defensemen anymore with some of the salaries involved (3.5-5.5 range for the last 3 you mentioned)
The thread is about depth not cost. I agree it would be a lot more expensive but that's what it costs.
Ideally you want to sprinkle in a couple of cheap, good young prospects whom we don't have yet. We will in a year or two so at least we're closer than we think to getting some real depth. As for now, I just know we don't have it.

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07-13-2012, 08:35 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Because he'll be our no1 defenceman all year long.
That is so sad, but i wish you well.

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07-13-2012, 08:36 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
The thread is about depth not cost. I agree it would be a lot more expensive but that's what it costs.
Ideally you want to sprinkle in a couple of cheap, good young prospects whom we don't have yet. We will in a year or two so at least we're closer than we think to getting some real depth. As for now, I just know we don't have it.
If we want the thread to be even remotely realistic, we should definitely think about cost as well

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07-13-2012, 08:40 AM
  #35
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Would you trade Kaberle + for Bouwmeester?

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07-13-2012, 08:41 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by shack23 View Post
That is so sad, but i wish you well.
I would have totally understood this bitterness if he didn't play at all last season but come on, he eventually did. And until he's officially done (which I'm sure Bergevin will properly communicate to us as opposed to other secret agencies), give the freaking guy a chance

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07-13-2012, 08:48 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Paul Dipietro View Post
If we want the thread to be even remotely realistic, we should definitely think about cost as well
With Gomez in the AHL or Kaberle off the books we'd have between 12-15 million in space. I dont think money is the issue. You can always make it work. Besides, those players are also getting paid so you'd have to deduct their salaries as well. More than enough money.

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07-13-2012, 08:48 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by danyhabsfan View Post
Would you trade Kaberle + for Bouwmeester?
Kaberle is just not trade worthy before the deadline. This combo isn't going to end well. I wouldn't sacrifice any prospects for Bouwmeester period.

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07-13-2012, 08:52 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by danyhabsfan View Post
Would you trade Kaberle + for Bouwmeester?
For all the crap Bouwmeester gets, he still plays 25+ mins a night and mostly looks good doing it. He just plays a style of game that doesn't make you a fan favorite, and he hasn't produced up to expectations.

Sure, the Flames probably regret the cap hit. But it would be stupid of them to trade away a guy that plays big minutes to grab Kaberle who has a rough time playing 15 or so.

As for me, would I do it? Meh. It would be an upgrade. But Kaberle is a roleplayer who plays little minutes. Bouwmeester needs to log a lot of icetime to be effective, and I'd rather give that icetime to Markov, Subban and Gorges. Both contracts are up in 2013-2014, and Jbo earns $2M more, so contract wise, it's not so bad (both are overpaid by about the same %).

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07-13-2012, 08:56 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
With Gomez in the AHL or Kaberle off the books we'd have between 12-15 million in space. I dont think money is the issue. You can always make it work. Besides, those players are also getting paid so you'd have to deduct their salaries as well. More than enough money.
I'm not looking to be antagonistic here but if there is already some resistance to the idea of burying some contracts in favour of signing a top-6 winger (which we need more than expensive defensive depth IMO), I really don't see how this can happen

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07-13-2012, 09:01 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Paul Dipietro View Post
I'm not looking to be antagonistic here but if there is already some resistance to the idea of burying some contracts in favour of signing a top-6 winger (which we need more than expensive defensive depth IMO), I really don't see how this can happen
I'm not trying to be defensive but the Habs do have very deep pockets. I could care less if ownership paid twice the cap and we had two NHL teams, one here and one in Hamilton. They can eat all the mistakes they like as long as they can be competitive at the NHL level.

But if you're talking cap then there are always ways to cut spending or trade bad contracts. That's neither here nor there and the Habs are actually in a pretty good spot so I don't think it's a cause for concern.

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07-13-2012, 09:03 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Gabe84 View Post
I really, really don't understand this infatuation with Emelin. He didn't even have that great of a season, not better than Diaz.

I love the guy, don't get me wrong. But it's like everybody is penciling him in as a top-4 dman. He has done nothing to make me believe he has that position acquired. He has a lot to prove.

As for trading Kaberle, Diaz, Weber and St-Denis, I have no idea what you expect to get from those guys. Kaberle is waiver fodder, Diaz has more value to us than he has to anyone else, Weber and St-Denis have no market value and our best bet is to hope they have a good season so other teams noticed them.
Brings a lot of physicality which the Habs are sorely lacking. Plays a good defensive game and has some offensive upside. What's not to like?

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07-13-2012, 09:22 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I'm not trying to be defensive but the Habs do have very deep pockets. I could care less if ownership paid twice the cap and we had two NHL teams, one here and one in Hamilton. They can eat all the mistakes they like as long as they can be competitive at the NHL level.

But if you're talking cap then there are always ways to cut spending or trade bad contracts. That's neither here nor there and the Habs are actually in a pretty good spot so I don't think it's a cause for concern.
I foresee $20 beers and four-digit ticket prices in your future

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07-13-2012, 09:50 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danyhabsfan View Post
Would you trade Kaberle + for Bouwmeester?
Depends on the +, of course, but generally speaking, H2TY! It's a bigger cap hit that we can just barely accommodate, but it's a better player who can play a bigger role on our team, and help us win a few more games.

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07-13-2012, 10:09 AM
  #45
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I foresee $20 beers and four-digit ticket prices in your future
Aren't the prices already there?

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07-13-2012, 10:24 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Gabe84 View Post
I really, really don't understand this infatuation with Emelin. He didn't even have that great of a season, not better than Diaz.

I love the guy, don't get me wrong. But it's like everybody is penciling him in as a top-4 dman. He has done nothing to make me believe he has that position acquired. He has a lot to prove.

As for trading Kaberle, Diaz, Weber and St-Denis, I have no idea what you expect to get from those guys. Kaberle is waiver fodder, Diaz has more value to us than he has to anyone else, Weber and St-Denis have no market value and our best bet is to hope they have a good season so other teams noticed them.


He was a first year North American d-man who played on his off side a lot of the time.

He also had 236 hits, many of which were huge.

And anyone who watched him at all saw a guy who had potential to easily be a top 4 d-man once he got used to the flow of an NHL game.

Of course he has a lot to prove, what is your point?

As for Kaberle being waiver fodder...so false it's not even funny. You clearly underestimate by a shockingly big amount how important puck moving d-men are in the NHL.

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07-13-2012, 10:40 AM
  #47
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Montreal needs to get bigger on defense they can't go into the year with Markov,Subban,Gorges,Emelin,Kaberle,Daiz,Weber,Bou llion as the top 8. I am not sure what it would take but we need a defenseman like Adam McQuaid of the Bruins a big tough as nails bottom pair dman. Boston could use an offensive defensemen like Weber or Daiz but I am not sure they would make a trade with the HABS. I would trade Weder or daiz plus a pick for McQuaid.
If Montreal couldn't work out a trade for McQuaid I would go after Theo Peckhamm from the oilers he is big 6-2 235 and is only 25 and can fight. He is a rfa right now and I think with the Oilers signing Schultz they might let Peckhamm go in a trade.
If I was running the HABS I would make sure I have 1 of McQuaid or Peckhamm in my line and if I had to over pay a little so be it we really need that kind of defenseman until Tinordi is ready to play in the NHL.

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07-13-2012, 10:43 AM
  #48
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Almost every team in the NHL at one point or another during a long season wishes they had more defensive depth, so yes we could use another body..especially since thinking that Markov is gonna play 82 games is about a 0.0001% certainty, and the fact that Kaberle is still considered a defenseman.

The good news is that our defensive depth and quality by all accounts should be better than last year when taking into consideration that our younger guys have a year more NHL experience than last year.

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07-13-2012, 10:44 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by habsroom View Post
Montreal needs to get bigger on defense they can't go into the year with Markov,Subban,Gorges,Emelin,Kaberle,Daiz,Weber,Bou llion as the top 8. I am not sure what it would take but we need a defenseman like Adam McQuaid of the Bruins a big tough as nails bottom pair dman. Boston could use an offensive defensemen like Weber or Daiz but I am not sure they would make a trade with the HABS. I would trade Weder or daiz plus a pick for McQuaid.
If Montreal couldn't work out a trade for McQuaid I would go after Theo Peckhamm from the oilers he is big 6-2 235 and is only 25 and can fight. He is a rfa right now and I think with the Oilers signing Schultz they might let Peckhamm go in a trade.
If I was running the HABS I would make sure I have 1 of McQuaid or Peckhamm in my line and if I had to over pay a little so be it we really need that kind of defenseman until Tinordi is ready to play in the NHL.
Peckham sucks, and McQuaid ain't much better.

It's a LOT easier to talk about getting a top 4 d-man with size and toughness than to actually get one.

The Habs defence could be one of the best in the entire league with their puck moving capabilities.

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07-13-2012, 11:00 AM
  #50
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I agree with a lot of the general sentiment in this thread. We lack a #3-4 dman. We've replaced them with four #5-7 dman type.

We have Markov, Subban & Gorges

but after that, it slips to Weber, Emelin, Diaz, Bouillon

none of which are bonafide #4 dman right now. If we want to make the playoffs, we need to "hope & pray" that none of our top 3 get injured and that one of Weber, Emelin or Diaz really steps up there game to be a #4 dman.

That's a little too much hoping and things going right for my comfort.

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