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07-21-2012, 02:57 PM
  #351
jkrx
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
The argument for J-bo goes far beyond icetime. He has really strong defensive stats. his coaches play him the most, against the toughest competition, and in defensive/pk situations. His Corsi Rel QoC and zone starts show this over the last 5 years.

He goes from good corsi to bad, so he's not SO good that his performance transcends the "disadvantage" he's given situationally (and guys who do, are already taken), but he's very heavily relied on.
His weakness is his transition from defense to offense. Sloppy out of zone passes and so on. Im not a fan of him but not a big critic either. Probably a good choice.

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07-21-2012, 03:37 PM
  #352
Rob Scuderi
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Can you seperate the finishes that take place until 1989 and those that take place from 1990 afterwards? The entire Green Unit left for North America in 1989-90 and younger players would soon follow.

So while there were still good players in the Soviet League after 1989, the quality of competition definitely suffered.
Asterisks added. Bykov and Khomutov went to Switzerland a year after the Green Unit left so they're not too affected. Drozdetsky went to Sweden the same year the Green Unit left so he's totally unaffected. Kamensky was roughly 5 years younger than Bykov and Khomutov and 9 years younger than Drozdetsky so he's hurt the most before leaving for the NHL.

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07-21-2012, 03:43 PM
  #353
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I PMed God Made Me, who VI said would make the next pick for their team. He has about 5 hours left to make the pick
VI and I take C Andy Blair. C1958 has been pmed.

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Old
07-21-2012, 04:00 PM
  #354
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Sylvain Cote

The Montreal Orfuns adopt defenseman Sylvain Cote, Hartford Whalers, Washington Capitals.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/c/cotesy01.html

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07-21-2012, 04:01 PM
  #355
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VI and I take C Andy Blair. C1958 has been pmed.
Blair was Earl Seibert's defense partner in Chicago, and he actually played large part in the Howie Morenz accident.

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07-21-2012, 04:08 PM
  #356
TheDevilMadeMe
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Blair was Earl Seibert's defense partner in Chicago, and he actually played large part in the Howie Morenz accident.

Should he be listed as a C/D?

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07-21-2012, 04:24 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I feel like a noob but what is this?
It's kind of a fourth degree stat.

There is corsi, which is your shot +/-. It is a very strong possession metric. We know this because the best players tend to have the best corsi.

relative corsi is corsi in relation to the rest of your team... like the "adjusted +/-" of corsi.

QoC is quality of competition, which is the average corsi of the players that were on the ice against the player, of course weighted by TOI against them.

Corsi Rel QoC is the same as the above, but it uses the average relative corsi to calculate instead of raw corsi, so it should be more accurate.

So what it all means is, if your Corsi Rel QoC is high, then you're the one the coach is putting on the ice against the players on the opposition who tend to dominate the possession game.

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Old
07-21-2012, 04:35 PM
  #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
It's kind of a fourth degree stat.

There is corsi, which is your shot +/-. It is a very strong possession metric. We know this because the best players tend to have the best corsi.

relative corsi is corsi in relation to the rest of your team... like the "adjusted +/-" of corsi.

QoC is quality of competition, which is the average corsi of the players that were on the ice against the player, of course weighted by TOI against them.

Corsi Rel QoC is the same as the above, but it uses the average relative corsi to calculate instead of raw corsi, so it should be more accurate.

So what it all means is, if your Corsi Rel QoC is high, then you're the one the coach is putting on the ice against the players on the opposition who tend to dominate the possession game.
Just to be sure , by shot +/- you means instead of calculating the +/- by goals scored you calculate the shot for and shot against on a team basis while the player is on the ice?

I understand the relative corsi in theory , but in practice how do you present it? Is it something like this?:

Hypothetical team of 3 players
Player A corsi = +5
Player B corsi = +10
Player C corsi = 0

Player A is 0 , Player B is +5 and Player C is -5 ? (for relative corsi)

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07-21-2012, 04:43 PM
  #359
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Just to be sure , by shot +/- you means instead of calculating the +/- by goals scored you calculate the shot for and shot against on a team basis while the player is on the ice?
right. it includes missed and blocked shots. greater sample size of events. misses and blocks don't lead to goals, but they are an indication that you had possession in the offensive zone which is what anyone should strive to do.

Quote:
I understand the relative corsi in theory , but in practice how do you present it? Is it something like this?:

Hypothetical team of 3 players
Player A corsi = +5
Player B corsi = +10
Player C corsi = 0

Player A is 0 , Player B is +5 and Player C is -5 ?
I believe that is how relative corsi works, yes.

so when you look at it that way, relative corsi itself might not be that useful, because perhaps everyone on one team truly sucks. but, if it's about determining who is the best on the team, it works. so if you're wondering who coaches match up against the other team's best, it should tell you that.

you'd think that a player's Corsi QoC and Corsi Rel QoC would be fairly similar over a season, so similar that it would "wash out" and not even be worth tracking the "rel" version, but apparently not. They are often quite different.

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Old
07-21-2012, 05:01 PM
  #360
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With pick #55 the Pittsburgh Hornets select:

Viktor Shuvalov, C

Click for Dreakmur's excellent MLD 2011 biography

Click for seventieslord's AAA11 biography

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Old
07-21-2012, 05:08 PM
  #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
right. it includes missed and blocked shots. greater sample size of events. misses and blocks don't lead to goals, but they are an indication that you had possession in the offensive zone which is what anyone should strive to do.



I believe that is how relative corsi works, yes.

so when you look at it that way, relative corsi itself might not be that useful, because perhaps everyone on one team truly sucks. but, if it's about determining who is the best on the team, it works. so if you're wondering who coaches match up against the other team's best, it should tell you that.

you'd think that a player's Corsi QoC and Corsi Rel QoC would be fairly similar over a season, so similar that it would "wash out" and not even be worth tracking the "rel" version, but apparently not. They are often quite different.
thanks , pretty interesting stuff.

Where does this come from , and more importantly are the stats really available pre-90s to look up player's corsis?

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07-21-2012, 05:26 PM
  #362
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
thanks , pretty interesting stuff.

Where does this come from , and more importantly are the stats really available pre-90s to look up player's corsis?
behindthenet.ca

it only goes to 2008, although, I think the stats are available to do it as far back as 2001 or so.

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Old
07-21-2012, 05:40 PM
  #363
TheDevilMadeMe
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Corsi definitely plays to Bouwmeester's strength, though. It is a measure of puck possession and says nothing of generating high quality scoring chances or preventing high quality scoring chances.

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07-21-2012, 05:40 PM
  #364
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Should he be listed as a C/D?
Based on maybe 1 year on the blueline, no. Maybe he played more, but I only know he played in Chicago.

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Old
07-21-2012, 05:47 PM
  #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Corsi definitely plays to Bouwmeester's strength, though. It is a measure of puck possession and says nothing of generating high quality scoring chances or preventing high quality scoring chances.
Still , some defensemen already drafted were never number ones to begin with and Bouwmeester was pretty much always a number one eating a lot of ice time.Of course he wasn't a great number one , but he still proved decent at this role.He also has a lot of EV goals for what it's worth , just an indication that he shouldn't be horrible offensively at even strenght.

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07-21-2012, 07:26 PM
  #366
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Corsi definitely plays to Bouwmeester's strength, though. It is a measure of puck possession and says nothing of generating high quality scoring chances or preventing high quality scoring chances.
His Corsi isn't great. It's his usage by his coaches that is impressive.

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07-21-2012, 07:27 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Still , some defensemen already drafted were never number ones to begin with and Bouwmeester was pretty much always a number one eating a lot of ice time.Of course he wasn't a great number one , but he still proved decent at this role.He also has a lot of EV goals for what it's worth , just an indication that he shouldn't be horrible offensively at even strenght.
I shuddered when I read things like "Bouwmeester had a horrible debut in Calgary, scoring only 28 points". Hockey card stats don't tell the story for most defensemen. I'm pretty sure he is a legit #1 NHL defenseman.

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07-21-2012, 07:40 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I shuddered when I read things like "Bouwmeester had a horrible debut in Calgary, scoring only 28 points". Hockey card stats don't tell the story for most defensemen. I'm pretty sure he is a legit #1 NHL defenseman.
There is a bit of point there as his offensive game has fallen off significantly in Calgary (but that is still a bad statement).

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07-21-2012, 07:47 PM
  #369
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Wimmipeg Monarchs selects, Blaine Stoughton, RW


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Old
07-21-2012, 07:57 PM
  #370
Mike Farkas
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I shuddered when I read things like "Bouwmeester had a horrible debut in Calgary, scoring only 28 points". Hockey card stats don't tell the story for most defensemen. I'm pretty sure he is a legit #1 NHL defenseman.
He is. One of the league's premier minute-munchers. His bad reputation comes from his salary and expectations versus his draft position, not his on-ice play.

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Old
07-21-2012, 08:06 PM
  #371
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He is. One of the league's premier minute-munchers. His bad reputation comes from his salary and expectations versus his draft position, not his on-ice play.
Actually hes been criticized for not being able to handle pressure in the defensive zone (when carrying the puck) and throwing away up-ice passes. This season was terrible for J-Bo even if munches minutes.

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07-21-2012, 08:08 PM
  #372
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Wimmipeg Monarchs selects, Blaine Stoughton, RW

damn, was hoping he'd be there for my next pick

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07-21-2012, 08:08 PM
  #373
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I'm here and will make my pick within the next half hour.

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07-21-2012, 08:10 PM
  #374
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I'm not going to pretend to be a J-Bo expert, having never paid a huge amount of attention to him but what I've always heard said about him is: he has godly skating skill, and is simply good at most other aspects of the game, but lacks the mental edge necessary to be a winner at the pro level.

Take it for what it's worth. I figure there has to be some accuracy to that in order for it to be repeated so often.

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07-21-2012, 08:14 PM
  #375
Mike Farkas
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Actually hes been criticized for not being able to handle pressure in the defensive zone (when carrying the puck) and throwing away up-ice passes. This season was terrible for J-Bo even if munches minutes.
Even if he had a bad season (and admittedly, I saw less of him this year than any other year of his career by a large margin), he's a low maintenance defensive defenseman that never promoted his transition game well enough and never really got a chance to in some regards. Over the long haul, he's a quality, quality player. He's a player that coaches absolutely adore because nothing bad happens when he's out there. Whether something positive happens when he's out there is a matter for the courts, but rarely does anything bad happen. As a coach, there's nothing more re-assuring than putting a pairing out there and going "great, nothing bad will happen for the next 60 seconds" ...very very valuable.

Probably a large part of the reason that no defenseman has logged more minutes since 2004 (J-Bo's second season) than Bouwmeester. I know seventies values ice-time leaders like that.

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