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The MLD 2012 Thread I

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Old
07-18-2012, 06:12 AM
  #176
tony d
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Chicago selects defenseman, Jeff Brown:



Some facts on Brown:

-584 Points in 747 Career Games
-8 50 point seasons
-81st All Time in Career Assists Per Game

For more on Brown click the following link:

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...p?player=10177

I've pmed next up.

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07-18-2012, 06:52 AM
  #177
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The latest Maniac is two-way center Bill Thoms, C



Points 4th(1936), 6th(1942), 7th(1928), 19th(1941)
Goals 1st(1936), 19th(1942), 20th(1928)
Assists 4th(1942), 5th(1928), 9th(1934), 14th(1943), 16th(1941)

2nd Team All Star in 1936
3rd in both Hart and Lady Byng voting in 1942

In addition to his offense, Thoms was noted for his poke checking. In one instance, his "stick checking" was mentioned along with Frank Nighbor, Frank Boucher, and Joe Primeau.

Thoms was a versatile player, spending time at LW and D in addition to his primary C position.

The Bill Thoms - Doug Bentley - Bill Monsienko line was once called the fastest line in the league.

Here's BillyShoes' full profile from last year. I doubt we could do better (other than removing the "war year" designation from 1942 - very few players had left for the war by that point): http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=669

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07-18-2012, 07:11 AM
  #178
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Thoms is a great pick. I was keeping an eye on him to see if he would drop 2 more spots.

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07-18-2012, 07:37 AM
  #179
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Yep I totally just assumed Thoms was gone. Great pick guys.

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07-18-2012, 07:58 AM
  #180
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Sherbrooke selects Bob Dailey, D

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07-18-2012, 08:41 AM
  #181
tarheelhockey
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With our second pick, 28th overall, the Winston-Salem Polar Twins select:

Bronco Horvath, C



Boston's famous "Uke Line" featured xxx, Bronco Horvath and Johnny Bucyk.


NHL 2nd All Star Team, 1960 (behind Jean Beliveau, ahead of Henri Richard)
NHL All Star Game, 1960 and 1961
1958 - 5th in goals, 8th in assists, 5th in points
1959 - 9th in goals-per-game
1960 - 1st in goals, 7th in assists, 2nd in points (lost to Bobby Hull by 1 assist)
1960 - Sixth in Hart voting


- During the 5-year period 1957-62, Horvath was 14th in points and 12th in points-per-game. He was 11th in goals and 10th in goals-per-game. His stat line during this period is better than his linemate Bucyk.
- During this period, his PPG exceeded that of Norm Ullman, Camille Henry and George Armstrong. His GPG was tied with Henri Richard.
- Due to playing on a weak team during his prime, he rarely had the opportunity to impress in the playoffs. In two 12-game playoff runs he had a line of 9-4-13.

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07-18-2012, 10:36 AM
  #182
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Can you believe Jeff Brown got picked after Oleg Tverdovsky? O.M.F.G.

Tverdovsky was a 20+ minute defenseman 5 times in 11 seasons, just once for a team with over 83 points. Brown, despite being known as "good offensively, meh defensively", and never getting any norris/AS votes to supplement his point totals, was a 20+ minute defenseman every season he played, usually over 24 minutes, usually for good teams that won a round in the playoffs.

Tverdovsky has 45 playoff games played, Brown has that many playoff assists.

Brown was #1 on my list for a PP specialist. I'd have been comfortable with him on a 2nd pairing at ES too, since he was top-3 on his team in ES ice time 7 times. (5 times for playoff teams with 105, 85, 83, 85, and 82* points)

*lockout


Last edited by seventieslord: 07-18-2012 at 10:48 AM.
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07-18-2012, 12:57 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Thoms is a great pick. ...
Agreed. Also agree with TDMM. Pearl Harbor just happened 12/7/41 so very players had left for WWII by the spring of 42.

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07-18-2012, 01:29 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Can you believe Jeff Brown got picked after Oleg Tverdovsky? O.M.F.G.

Tverdovsky was a 20+ minute defenseman 5 times in 11 seasons, just once for a team with over 83 points. Brown, despite being known as "good offensively, meh defensively", and never getting any norris/AS votes to supplement his point totals, was a 20+ minute defenseman every season he played, usually over 24 minutes, usually for good teams that won a round in the playoffs.

Tverdovsky has 45 playoff games played, Brown has that many playoff assists.

Brown was #1 on my list for a PP specialist. I'd have been comfortable with him on a 2nd pairing at ES too, since he was top-3 on his team in ES ice time 7 times. (5 times for playoff teams with 105, 85, 83, 85, and 82* points)

*lockout
Are those official ice-time statistics or some kind of recalculation? Funny also how you mention Olegs 11 seasons when he only played 7 full NHL seasons, two seasons of 50 games and the rest were basically nothing. He played for the coyotes and the ducks. If you actually think that the Blues and Canucks got to the playoffs because of Jeff Brown you are delusional.

Not saying Oleg is better than Jeff but you make it sound like Brown was some kind of underrated NHL star and Oleg was some kind of AHL player who got lucky.

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07-18-2012, 01:52 PM
  #185
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Johnny Gagnon

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Alright, I will start off my team with 1100+ Game, 500+ point, 23+ minute, all situation defenseman, Bryan McCabe.

Little separates McCabe's numbers and overall resume from a number of defensemen selected in the 400-600 range in the MLD. My defenseman study from the closing week of ATD 2012 indicates as much.

I'll also select the diminutive speedster and hero of the 1931 playoffs, Johnny "Black Cat" Gagnon.

Gagnon has remarkable percentage scores for a pre-expansion winger available at this time: 80, 80, 77, 74, 60, 52, 52 in his best 7 seasons. This is almost as good as any post-expansion winger available, and as you know, percentage scores for similar players seem to look a lot lower for pre-expansion guys.

Gagnon did have Howie Morenz as a linemate, but only until 1934. Three of Gagnon's five best seasons were without Morenz.
Also had Aurel Joliat as his LW. Morenz was back with the Canadiens in 1936-37 until his broken leg and subsequent passing.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1937.html

Gagnon with the Bruins in 1934-35 and last games with the Americans are closer to his skill level.

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07-18-2012, 02:00 PM
  #186
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Third Line

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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
I had him penned in as my squad's third line left winger! A great competitor, brings intangibles like work ethic, corner work and leadership.
Not aware of many LWs who were top 5 on their team in scoring during 7 seasons or whose playoff PPG surpassed their regular season.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 07-18-2012 at 02:03 PM. Reason: addition
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07-18-2012, 02:16 PM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Are those official ice-time statistics or some kind of recalculation? Funny also how you mention Olegs 11 seasons when he only played 7 full NHL seasons, two seasons of 50 games and the rest were basically nothing. He played for the coyotes and the ducks. If you actually think that the Blues and Canucks got to the playoffs because of Jeff Brown you are delusional.

Not saying Oleg is better than Jeff but you make it sound like Brown was some kind of underrated NHL star and Oleg was some kind of AHL player who got lucky.
- Of course they are estimates based on GF/GA that have proven to be highly reliable.

- Oleg played in 11 seasons, so of course I'm going to say 11, if he was a 20 minute player in a partial season I'd have given him credit for that too.

- Obviously Brown was not his team's MVP or anything that close to it. But what's more impressive? Earning 20 minutes for a good team or earning 20 minutes for a bad team?

- Brown's not underrated; he is probably overrated because many people judge players by hockey card stats. Tverdovsky, AHL player? Well, if you are talking about defensive ability and toughness, sure. But he could carry the puck, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Also had Aurel Joliat as his LW. Morenz was back with the Canadiens in 1936-37 until his broken leg and subsequent passing.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1937.html

Gagnon with the Bruins in 1934-35 and last games with the Americans are closer to his skill level.
Gagnon is certainly not alone in this regard in the MLD. Plenty of complementary players will be selected to play scoring line roles, including all the modern comparable wingers I considered selecting instead. I find it curious that you're downplaying Gagnon's offensive achievements while touting Corson's in the next post...

When I was referring to "three of Gagnon's best five seasons" I was referring to 1937, 38, and 39. Gagnon had Joliat for a teammate in the first two years but also outscored him, so it's not fair to label him a shotgun rider. In 1937 in particular, he was the goals and points leader of a first place team.

In 1932 and 1933 he kept up pretty well with Joliat's pace as well, only trailing by a few points. Trailing a top-100 player by a few points is nothing to be ashamed about.

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07-18-2012, 02:49 PM
  #188
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where do you guys rank rautakallio compared to other defensemen drafted?

I admit I don't know that much on rautakallio but I digged a bit before I picked him and he seemed like a decent value if you put some stock in his career in finland , which I do of course giving his performance in the NHL in the middle of his prime.

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07-18-2012, 03:03 PM
  #189
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Of course they are estimates based on GF/GA that have proven to be highly reliable.
To clarify, the estimates have proven very reliable for the modern, short shift game. I would imagine that the farther back you go, the less reliable they are.

You don't need the estimates for Tverdovsky though - The NHL had official ice time numbers for most of his career. His problem isn't lack of usage in his prime; it's that he was hit by injuries in 2002-03 at the age of 26 and was never a top 4 defenseman in the NHL again

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07-18-2012, 03:07 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
where do you guys rank rautakallio compared to other defensemen drafted?

I admit I don't know that much on rautakallio but I digged a bit before I picked him and he seemed like a decent value if you put some stock in his career in finland , which I do of course giving his performance in the NHL in the middle of his prime.
Overpass made a pretty good profile of him. He seems a bit lacking in size, but has more seasons as a relevant offensive player than someone like McCabe. I'd like to know more about his defensive ability

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07-18-2012, 03:31 PM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Overpass made a pretty good profile of him. He seems a bit lacking in size, but has more seasons as a relevant offensive player than someone like McCabe. I'd like to know more about his defensive ability
I'm seeing 1978-1982, personally. The three years he was in the NHL (two of them significant, one written off fairly as an adjustment year), and the two years prior in Finland, where he had his highest point totals. (I wouldn't consider age 32-33 in 1986 and 1987 among them; it's very doubtful he was as good then as he was when younger, just knowing what we know about all players of that era, and seeing how the competition level of these European leagues all seemed to drop off a bit starting then).

Not sure what 50 WHA points means (5th among WHA defensemen, surrounded by other D-men on the list who were never offensive NHL threats), and not sure what his seemingly decent 1983, 1984, and 1985 seasons in Finland translate to. (in 1973 he scored 23 goals to 12 assists and was 19, so I'm not sure he was a defenseman)

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07-18-2012, 03:32 PM
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Overpass made a pretty good profile of him. He seems a bit lacking in size, but has more seasons as a relevant offensive player than someone like McCabe. I'd like to know more about his defensive ability
I've read that he received criticism for his "European style" of play. Other than that I don't know much...it seems like the Flames missed him when he left, so he probably wasn't as bad of a turnover machine as Tverdovsky (Turnoverdovsky) was or as poor defensively as McCabe appeared to be for much of his career...

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07-18-2012, 03:58 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I've read that he received criticism for his "European style" of play.
Which is probably nothing more than era bias.

Quote:
Other than that I don't know much...it seems like the Flames missed him when he left, so he probably wasn't as bad of a turnover machine as Tverdovsky (Turnoverdovsky)
...but who was?

Quote:
was or as poor defensively as McCabe appeared to be (thanks to occasional high profile bloopers and not his actual day to day level of play) for much of his career...
I fixed this part for you.

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07-18-2012, 03:59 PM
  #194
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Age

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post

Gagnon is certainly not alone in this regard in the MLD. Plenty of complementary players will be selected to play scoring line roles, including all the modern comparable wingers I considered selecting instead. I find it curious that you're downplaying Gagnon's offensive achievements while touting Corson's in the next post...

When I was referring to "three of Gagnon's best five seasons" I was referring to 1937, 38, and 39. Gagnon had Joliat for a teammate in the first two years but also outscored him, so it's not fair to label him a shotgun rider. In 1937 in particular, he was the goals and points leader of a first place team.

In 1932 and 1933 he kept up pretty well with Joliat's pace as well, only trailing by a few points. Trailing a top-100 player by a few points is nothing to be ashamed about.
Gagnon was about 4 years younger than Joliat and Morenz who were 35 and 34 respectively. Old for thirties hockey players.

Corson never played with two elite/solid HHOFers as linemates for a length of time like Gagnon did.

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07-18-2012, 04:12 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Gagnon was about 4 years younger than Joliat and Morenz who were 35 and 34 respectively. Old for thirties hockey players.

Corson never played with two elite/solid HHOFers as linemates for a length of time like Gagnon did.
No one would have put Corson consistently within the top-20 point scorers, let's be realistic here.

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07-18-2012, 04:21 PM
  #196
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Nice bio on Ulf Nilsson Tarheel, I just read the Rebel League and would be happy to supply you with some quotes if his toughness comes into question. He and Hedberg really got tested physically when they first came to the WHA and they both held their own. Ted Green even told them the most frustrating thing about them was that after being hacked and whacked all game long they wouldn't retaliate and that just infuriated their opposition.

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07-18-2012, 04:33 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Which is probably nothing more than era bias.



...but who was?



I fixed this part for you.
- Good point
- Good point
- I think you might have fixed that part for you, more than me, with all due respect. McCabe was always babysat by Tomas Kaberle (which sounds a bit strange in retrospect). It made Kaberle look good because he didn't have to "lead" a pairing and McCabe went around joining rushes and pulling himself out of position to make big hits and then scrambling to get back in the play (which contributed to his penalty totals). When given the big minutes, he was a let-down defensively in Toronto, when sheltered he was a let-down defensively (2006 Olympics), in his old age he slowed down enough so that he couldn't pull himself so far out of position in Florida but he wasn't the same puck-mover he was in Toronto certainly...

I don't want to use the word "liability" but he was a risk taker, he went for the aggressive, physical play because he didn't really have enough defensive awareness to take on skilled forwards one on one correctly...

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07-18-2012, 04:38 PM
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Nice bio on Ulf Nilsson Tarheel, I just read the Rebel League and would be happy to supply you with some quotes if his toughness comes into question. He and xxx really got tested physically when they first came to the WHA and they both held their own. Ted Green even told them the most frustrating thing about them was that after being hacked and whacked all game long they wouldn't retaliate and that just infuriated their opposition.
Right on. The nature of Nilsson's injuries -- basically a long list of broken bones and shredded tendons -- remind me of the abuse that Salming took, night-in and night-out. If those guys had been even the slightest bit soft, they would never have made it.

At the end of the vid in his bio, there's an interview with John Davisdon where he speaks eloquently (as always) about how those early Swedes basically had to carve out a reputation every night. And Bobby Hull has been outspoken about the "brutality" they faced.

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07-18-2012, 04:44 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
The nature of Nilsson's injuries -- basically a long list of broken bones and shredded tendons
Just keep him away from Paddy Moran, and he'll be fine

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07-18-2012, 05:09 PM
  #200
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
McCabe was always babysat by Tomas Kaberle (which sounds a bit strange in retrospect). It made Kaberle look good because he didn't have to "lead" a pairing and McCabe went around joining rushes and pulling himself out of position to make big hits and then scrambling to get back in the play (which contributed to his penalty totals).
I don't necessarily disagree with that. Kaberle was better with the puck and just plain smoother and calmer. As far as physical defensive abilities go though, he wasn't the guy clearing the crease, rubbing guys out, winning battles in the corners. There is more to defense than just "don't be a risk taker". That part McCabe wasn't so good at, the other parts he was.

Quote:
When given the big minutes, he was a let-down defensively in Toronto,
The stats don't bear that out. For one thing, his goals against totals were never horrible even when the team was, and his goal differential was better than his team's throughout his career. Second, he was given the most minutes for a reason. Third, he was the guy playing against the opposition's best players; the ones who would make a defenseman look stupid. They did sometimes do that to him, and if any of McCabe's teams tried someone else in his place, those star forwards would have embarrassed them even worse.


Last edited by seventieslord: 07-19-2012 at 10:49 AM.
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