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The MLD 2012 Thread I

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Old
07-18-2012, 07:13 PM
  #201
Zombie Mike Murphy
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With the 29th pick in the 2012 MLD, the Raleigh Icecaps select:



Pierre Larouche, C

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07-18-2012, 08:41 PM
  #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I don't necessarily disagree with that. Kaberle was better with the puck and just plain smoother and calmer. As far as physical defensive abilities go though, he wasn't the guy clearing the crease, rubbing guys out, winning battles in the corners. There is more to defense than just "don't be a risk taker". That part McCabe wasn't so good at, the other parts he was.



The stats don't bear that out. For one thing, his goals against totals were never horrible even when the team was, and his goal differential was better than his team's throughout his career. Second, he was given the most minutes for a reason. Third, he was the guy playing against the opposition's best players; the ones who would make a defenseman look stupid. They did sometimes do that to him, and if any of McCabe's teams tried someone else in his place, those star forwards would have embarrassed them even worse.
I'm surprised the numbers wouldn't bear that out to be honest. Because in watching him, it should indicate that he was on the ice for at least a goal per game...and the cause of near that many...I won't go head to head on the numbers for something that I'm quite sure I saw happen (you did too, I'm sure), because I'm not sure what the numbers will prove... will they make it seem like McCabe was even average defensively?

In terms of measuring McCabe versus his teammates, is it really valuable to say that McCabe was the choice to get minutes instead of Aki-Petteri Berg or Ric Jackman or Drake Berehowsky...or even the impenetrable Klee-fense?


Last edited by Mike Farkas: 07-18-2012 at 09:27 PM.
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Old
07-18-2012, 10:16 PM
  #203
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you know what, forget theme


Yarmouth selects winger Steve Vickers


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Old
07-18-2012, 10:37 PM
  #204
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Vickers was tough. This is more how I remember him:



Quote:
Although Steve wasn’t the type to go looking for a fight, he could take care of himself and be counted on to stand up for his teammates. His famous 1973 punch out of the Bruin’s Don Marcotte earned respect from the tough guys around the league as well as his coach. “Vickers is tough” said Francis. “It takes a lot to get him riled up but when he does, look out!” Ranger scout Steve Brklacich put it this way, “He doesn’t start fights, he finishes them”.
http://insidehockey.com/retro-ranger...-steve-vickers

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07-18-2012, 11:48 PM
  #205
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I nearly lost my lunch when I thought Moose Johnson was available, but on the ATD picks list he has two apostrophes around Moose instead of a quotation mark, so when I searched "Moose" - he didn't come up...but I knew that was too good to be true, so I searched again and found him (much to my dismay, of course)...

Anyway...

Given the weakness of super-high quality wingers, I couldn't pass him up here...

Medicine Hat selects, LW Albert "Dubbie" Kerr

He's considered the best winger in the league in the early 1910's, speedy, one of the finest goal scorers in the professional circuit pre-World War I and through the war. Kerr will bring an elite goal-scorer to the Medicine Hat lineup, lots of speed, and competent-to-good defensive play and checking...

He's a very durable player that played even better when injured it seems. Who also was an aggressive enough player to (briefly) earn the nickname "Cannon Ball."

Seventies did a terrific profile of him: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=256

In that instance, he was taken in the 19th round by the team that won the whole thing in ATD2011...

I'd like to add a couple of things to seventies' profile of him...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Total Hockey
"He joined Toronto of the Ontario Professional Hockey League during the 1908-09 season, but jumped to the Ottawa Senators and became a star." "Kerr was one of several Senators players Renfrew tried to sign for the inaugural 1909-10 season of the NHA, but he turned them down." "Ottawa easily won the league championship and with it the Stanley Cup" "Kerr retired after the 11-12 season...but in 1913-14 he was chosen the league's all-star left winger after leading the Aristocats to the PCHA championship." "He remained an effective scorer in the PCHA until 1920"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa Citizen Dec. 29, 1913
"Dubbie Kerr Once More Starred for Victoria." (is the sub-headline). || "...beating them decisively at their own game - speed and bullet-like shooting..." || Dunderdale and Kerr, for Victoria, were the stars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa Citizen Dec. 16, 1913
Kerr is going like a house afire according to latest reports and will be a fixture on the team. In last Friday's match he scored three goals, several on end to end rushes, which made him such a valuable man when a member of the Ottawa team in 1910.

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Old
07-19-2012, 06:32 AM
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Medicine Hat selects, LW Albert "Dubbie" Kerr
Can never have enough power forwards! Good pick.

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07-19-2012, 07:09 AM
  #207
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Oh, Mr. Arrogance is on it again. Im out of this ****.

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Old
07-19-2012, 08:11 AM
  #208
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Oh, Mr. Arrogance is on it again. Im out of this ****.
Yup I have no idea what this means.

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07-19-2012, 08:18 AM
  #209
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Yup I have no idea what this means.
Me either.

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07-19-2012, 08:28 AM
  #210
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I'm pretty sure he has beef with LW Albert "Dubbie" Kerr.

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07-19-2012, 09:00 AM
  #211
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Hobnobs selected Tverdovsky and then seventieslord posted something he didn't like about the pick.

I think Oleg doesn't belong anywhere near an all-time top-1000 player list. I wouldn't select him in the AAA. But I hadn't shared that yet, until now. Seems like a fitting time...

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07-19-2012, 09:10 AM
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Hobnobs selected Tverdovsky and then seventieslord posted something he didn't like about the pick.

I think Oleg doesn't belong anywhere near an all-time top-1000 player list. I wouldn't select him in the AAA. But I hadn't shared that yet, until now. Seems like a fitting time...
That's a little much. Tverdovsky can easily fit into a PP role in this draft.

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07-19-2012, 09:12 AM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
That's a little much. Tverdovsky can easily fit into a PP role in this draft.
There are just too many BETTER-THAN-HIM picks for the blueline imo.

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Old
07-19-2012, 09:20 AM
  #214
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Basic Issue

Basic issue is that this is an exercise in team building within the confines of talent and era restrictions.So certain types of players will be chosen well above the actual talent slot because they are far superior to their talent niche or what is available from an era.

Not even two rounds and the nattering has started either to bluff certain participants out of picks or direct them into a comfort zone for the author.

Let the draft run its course and then look at the resulting team and how it came together.

Also keep the running board of picks uniform The two surprise picks to date - Karlsson and Tverdovsky are not bolded.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 07-19-2012 at 09:27 AM. Reason: addition.
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Old
07-19-2012, 09:56 AM
  #215
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seventieslord is entitled to his "OMFG" comment. Hobnobs is just unhappy with his opinion, and maybe having a bad day, expressed his feelings a bit strongly.

BTW, Hobnob's grandfather, jkrx, is still ON THE CLOCK.

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07-19-2012, 10:02 AM
  #216
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Brynäs selects: Rolle Stoltz, D and Lasse Bjorn, D



Lasse, Stoltz and Tumba.

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Old
07-19-2012, 10:08 AM
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Brynäs selects: Rolle Stoltz, D and Lasse Bjorn, D



Lasse, Stoltz and Tumba.
Both picks are decent rght now.... the fact that you have that trio together is amazing

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07-19-2012, 10:13 AM
  #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Can never have enough power forwards! Good pick.
Where did this idea that Kerr is a power forward come from?

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07-19-2012, 10:32 AM
  #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Where did this idea that Kerr is a power forward come from?
Keep in mind that my definition of power foward is different than most. Mine does not require hitting or fighting - just speed, skill, and power. Basically, it's guy who can beat a defenseman just by dropping his shoulder, protecting the puck, and just bulldoze his way to net.... and then have the ability to bury it.

Mats Sundin, as an example, is a guy I would consider a power forward, despite the fact that he is not an aggressive player.

Dubbie Kerr was definately a skilled scorer, so that's check one. He was also known as a fast skater, so that's check two. He was quite big for his era (6'3" 225 adjusted), and he was known to crash the net, so that's check three for me.

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07-19-2012, 10:47 AM
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Keep in mind that my definition of power foward is different than most. Mine does not require hitting or fighting - just speed, skill, and power. Basically, it's guy who can beat a defenseman just by dropping his shoulder, protecting the puck, and just bulldoze his way to net.... and then have the ability to bury it.

Mats Sundin, as an example, is a guy I would consider a power forward, despite the fact that he is not an aggressive player.

Dubbie Kerr was definately a skilled scorer, so that's check one. He was also known as a fast skater, so that's check two. He was quite big for his era (6'3" 225 adjusted), and he was known to crash the net, so that's check three for me.
He was also known to be rather aggressive, especially early in his career. Which, I don't think I need to tell you, as you know way more about pre-War players than I do.

Interesting stuff on the adjusted height/weight...does that have value here? As in, should it be added to his profile?

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Old
07-19-2012, 11:00 AM
  #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
He was also known to be rather aggressive, especially early in his career. Which, I don't think I need to tell you, as you know way more about pre-War players than I do.

Interesting stuff on the adjusted height/weight...does that have value here? As in, should it be added to his profile?
Please don't add "adjusted height" to his profile. It's a decent short hand for "he was big for his era," but looks goofy in a profile that's otherwise full of historical information.

As for the quote calling him "aggressive," I find it rather ambiguous. Pavel Bure aggressively tried to score goals, for example.

I see Kerr as a great (for this level) offensive player who isn't vulnerable to being pushed around. I could be missing something though.

Good pick, regardless


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 07-19-2012 at 11:41 AM.
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Old
07-19-2012, 11:49 AM
  #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I'm surprised the numbers wouldn't bear that out to be honest. Because in watching him, it should indicate that he was on the ice for at least a goal per game...and the cause of near that many...I won't go head to head on the numbers for something that I'm quite sure I saw happen (you did too, I'm sure), because I'm not sure what the numbers will prove... will they make it seem like McCabe was even average defensively?

In terms of measuring McCabe versus his teammates, is it really valuable to say that McCabe was the choice to get minutes instead of Aki-Petteri Berg or Ric Jackman or Drake Berehowsky...or even the impenetrable Klee-fense?
You don’t need to ask me, you can look them up. These are McCabe’s non-PPGA numbers by season with the Leafs: 59, 64, 53, 46, 61, 67, 42. Per-game, 0.72, 0.78, 0.71, 0.61, 0.81, 0.82, 0.78. While being a big-minute player who went up against the opposition’s stars.

McCabe was not below-average defensively on a league-wide level. This is why eight coaches spanning five franchises over 14 years chose to keep putting him on the ice more than almost anyone else, against top competition. Was he below average for a top pairing, offensively oriented defenseman? Probably. But there is also no one available in this draft who would qualify as above average by that standard. They’ve all been picked.

There are two factors that I think might be affecting your judgment on this subject, as a new GM:

1) You are not remembering that the MLD is its own little “league” where the players are judged based on who else is available and who else is selected in the MLD.
2) You are not considering how important competition level is and how it impacts a defenseman’s performance. Sometimes we have a tendency to glorify lunchpail 3rd pairing defensive defensemen for being so “skilled” defensively and having “shutdown” ability but forget that this shutdown ability was only useful in limited minutes against substandard competition and that it wouldn’t look nearly as great in top-unit, top-opposition situations, and if it would, their coaches, who know much more than you or I, would have used them that way. (there are plenty of great shutdown defensemen whose minutes DO indicate heavy usage by their coaches in first pairing situations – Bill Hajt, Dave Burrows, Mark Tinordi, Ulf Samuelsson – so please don’t interpret this as me saying defensive defensemen are teh suck)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I nearly lost my lunch when I thought Moose Johnson was available, but on the ATD picks list he has two apostrophes around Moose instead of a quotation mark, so when I searched "Moose" - he didn't come up...but I knew that was too good to be true, so I searched again and found him (much to my dismay, of course)...

Anyway...

Given the weakness of super-high quality wingers, I couldn't pass him up here...

Medicine Hat selects, LW Albert "Dubbie" Kerr

He's considered the best winger in the league in the early 1910's, speedy, one of the finest goal scorers in the professional circuit pre-World War I and through the war. Kerr will bring an elite goal-scorer to the Medicine Hat lineup, lots of speed, and competent-to-good defensive play and checking...

He's a very durable player that played even better when injured it seems. Who also was an aggressive enough player to (briefly) earn the nickname "Cannon Ball."

Seventies did a terrific profile of him: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=256

In that instance, he was taken in the 19th round by the team that won the whole thing in ATD2011...

I'd like to add a couple of things to seventies' profile of him...
Keep in mind that it was a 40-team draft so you’re not getting him much later than I did

But yeah, this is a very good pick.

Truth be told, I like him better than Gagnon. I let him slide for two reasons:

1) I thought I could have both.
2) I didn’t want to appear like I was just collecting “my” guys all over again (McCab= fine, McCabe AND Kerr with my first two picks = too much)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
That's a little much. Tverdovsky can easily fit into a PP role in this draft.
Maybe. Looking at his absolute peak I thought there was a chance that I would have taken him as a #6, 2nd pairing specialist, but I wouldn’t know 100% for sure until we got to the end of the draft and saw who else was available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Basic issue is that this is an exercise in team building within the confines of talent and era restrictions.So certain types of players will be chosen well above the actual talent slot because they are far superior to their talent niche or what is available from an era.

Not even two rounds and the nattering has started either to bluff certain participants out of picks or direct them into a comfort zone for the author.

Let the draft run its course and then look at the resulting team and how it came together.

Also keep the running board of picks uniform The two surprise picks to date - Karlsson and Tverdovsky are not bolded.
Criticism of the picks is essential to the running of the draft. We need to see which ones stand up to scrutiny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Where did this idea that Kerr is a power forward come from?
I don’t see him as a power forward. He’s got game. He’s got some guts and some jam. But he’s not intimidating or anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
He was also known to be rather aggressive, especially early in his career. Which, I don't think I need to tell you, as you know way more about pre-War players than I do.

Interesting stuff on the adjusted height/weight...does that have value here? As in, should it be added to his profile?
Please don’t! We had a guy do that and it became very confusing. There is no accepted standard (I invented this one and some people seem to like it, but I have almost disowned it as anything more than a shorthand).

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Old
07-19-2012, 11:52 AM
  #223
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Hobnobs selected Tverdovsky and then seventieslord posted something he didn't like about the pick.

I think Oleg doesn't belong anywhere near an all-time top-1000 player list. I wouldn't select him in the AAA. But I hadn't shared that yet, until now. Seems like a fitting time...
Yeah, that's definitely what this is about.

If your player can't stand up to some scrutiny, don't pick him!

You and I are just two of the three most vocal guys here, and the two whose feathers get the most ruffled when an inferior player gets selected hundreds of picks too early. This isn't the place to select your "pet" players; treat it as a competitive research project. I'm sorry Hobnobs couldn't take the heat. We will have to contact GMM, as per your PM to me.

I am glad jkrx stuck around.

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07-19-2012, 12:14 PM
  #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Yeah, that's definitely what this is about.

If your player can't stand up to some scrutiny, don't pick him!

You and I are just two of the three most vocal guys here, and the two whose feathers get the most ruffled when an inferior player gets selected hundreds of picks too early. This isn't the place to select your "pet" players; treat it as a competitive research project. I'm sorry Hobnobs couldn't take the heat. We will have to contact GMM, as per your PM to me.

I am glad jkrx stuck around.
I contemplating leaving as I thought you were starting taking cheapshots at the player in question. Saying things like he was the worst turnover machine is hogwash and something that can't be countered as official stats wasnt kept until the '03 season. I think my grandson took it abit too far but inherited more than just intrest for hockey from me (temper).

Also Tverdovsky is hardly his pet.

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07-19-2012, 12:20 PM
  #225
TheDevilMadeMe
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It's the Minor League Draft; not the All Time Draft. Opinions vary widely once we get to this level and a perceived bad pick in round 2 can just be stuck on your bottom pairing and used on the powerplay without much harm done

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