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Zemgus Girgensons signs 3-year ELC with Sabres

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Old
07-13-2012, 09:58 PM
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
So he could play a professional year (the whole year) in the AHL and not burn a year on his contract if he plays less than 9 NHL games?

That seems...odd.
Yep, it may seem odd, but that's how it works.

9.1 d-i:
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(d) (i) In the event that an 18 year old or 19 year old Player signs an SPC with a Club but does not play at least ten (10) NHL Games in the first season under that SPC, the term of his SPC and his number of years in the Entry Level System shall be extended for a period of one (1) year, except that this automatic extension will not apply to a Player who is 19 according to Section 9.2 by virtue of turning 20 between September 16 and December 31 in the year in which he first signs an SPC. Unless a Player and Club expressly agree to the contrary, in the event a Player's SPC is extended an additional year in accordance with this subsection, all terms of the SPC, with the exception of Signing Bonuses, but including Paragraph 1 Salary, games played bonuses and Exhibit 5 bonuses, shall be extended; provided, however, that the Player's Paragraph 1 Salary shall be extended in all circumstances.
It's specifically NHL games.

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Originally Posted by Beerz View Post
Yes it does....seeing how I assume he will be collecting a paycheck.
Every signed prospect is collecting a paycheck at some point, even if they're playing in junior.

Collecting a paycheck has nothing to do with entry-level slide.
Their contract receives an extension, but it doesn't prevent them from receiving the money they were rightfully owed for that season.

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Originally Posted by Beerz View Post
Ok.... makes sense... but... lets say Pegula didn't own the Amerks ... Who would be paying his paycheck? ... Because i know Assat is paying Armias
He'd still be paid by the Sabres because he's on an NHL contract.

I'm not sure if Pori is paying for Armia's contract or what.
The Sabres may have agreed to cover the minor league portion of his salary there, and they owe him $92,500 as a signing bonus (likely paid 7/1).

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07-13-2012, 10:12 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by gregor View Post
Daaaaaw what do you mean awkward?

Even with that, still gotta like what the kid says in interviews. I especially liked his answer when asked about if he had exceeded the expectations he had for himself in development camp. Paraphrasing, it was something like "Dawwww no, never, I always think I can do more."

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07-13-2012, 10:41 PM
  #178
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Girgensons sounds like Barth from "You Can't do that on Television"


DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHIIIIIIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!

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07-13-2012, 11:08 PM
  #179
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Hopefully this means WHL.

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07-13-2012, 11:13 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeo View Post
Hopefully this means WHL.
It's an option but judging by the press conference and previous comments from Darcy and Lindy, I sincerely doubt it'd be anything but an emergency plan if he stinks up the AHL.

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07-13-2012, 11:16 PM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperNintendoChalmrs View Post
Girgensons sounds like Barth from "You Can't do that on Television"


DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHIIIIIIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Barth Girgensons!

"What do you think's in the burgers?"

God I feel old now.

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Old
07-13-2012, 11:33 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by zbubble View Post
Barth Girgensons!

"What do you think's in the burgers?"

God I feel old now.
I dunno?

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Old
07-14-2012, 12:03 AM
  #183
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Yep, jfb is right (obviously).

http://www.capgeek.com/NHL_NHLPA_2012_CBA_Casebook.pdf

A few different interesting scenarios to look at:

Tomas Tatar was drafted out of Europe.

Signed immediately (late birthday = 19 year old ELC):

didn't play 10 + games in 09-10 and 10-11- contract slid two years

will be RFA after 13-14 season.

Nikita Filatov (ELC as 18 year old)

didn't play 10 + NHL games in 08-09, played 10 + in 09-10
RFA this year

CHL:

John Carlson- signed in 08-09 (18 year old) from USHL

Played in London 1st year, played > 9 games in 09-10, RFA this year

Interestly, a 19 year old ELC from the US or Canada can only slide 1 year whereas a 19 year old ELC from Europe can slide two years (Europeans have different pressures to make the NHL team so if they go back to Europe, they can still earn wages and the NHL team doesn't lose a year of the ELC.)...

Kyle Palmieri: Signed ELC as 19 year old (10-11), played 10 games that season- RFA after 12-13 season. If he had played 1 fewer game, his contract would have slid.

Dylen Olsen: Signed ELC as 19 year old (10-11), did not play 10 games in the NHL that season. Contract slid- will be RFA after 13-14 season.

Jeremy Morin: Signed ELC as 19 year old (10-11), did not play 10+ games in 10-11 or 11-12. However, he is still an RFA after the 13-14 season because he was drafted from the NAHL and not Europe.


Interesting...

But yeah, Girgenson's contract could slide up to 2 years depending on how many NHL games he plays.

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Old
07-14-2012, 01:25 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Tachycineta View Post
Interestly, a 19 year old ELC from the US or Canada can only slide 1 year whereas a 19 year old ELC from Europe can slide two years (Europeans have different pressures to make the NHL team so if they go back to Europe, they can still earn wages and the NHL team doesn't lose a year of the ELC.)...
It's actually the same for everyone.
If a player signs at 18 it can slide for two years and at 19 it can slide for one.

You're probably thinking of when some teams choose to send European prospects back to their team in Europe for their 20 year old season, but that year is burned when they do so.
Some just view it as a better idea than having them toil in the AHL for a whole season if they clearly aren't ready (this is also my philosophy), so they're willing to lose that year.

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07-14-2012, 02:37 AM
  #185
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Hopefully he has a similar year to Foligno last year, keep him in the AHL until February/March(don't even consider calling him up) then bring him up to boost the team and bring a fresh body for that end of the year stretch.

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07-14-2012, 03:07 AM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeo View Post
Hopefully this means WHL.
Hopefully??

If he's going back to the CHL, it better not be to Kelowna. That's exactly what the Sabres need to do with a guy who by all accounts is at least very close to being pro ready - send him back to a team he's said he has no interest going back to.

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07-14-2012, 06:25 AM
  #187
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Honestly i can see them giving gus a go in the ahl if he doesnt make tue team out of camp....makes sense. The more i hear darcy and lindy talk about him, the more i think that he was the origional plan to take at 12 before grigorenko fell to us.

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07-14-2012, 08:33 AM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloydchristmas138 View Post
Hopefully he has a similar year to Foligno last year, keep him in the AHL until February/March(don't even consider calling him up) then bring him up to boost the team and bring a fresh body for that end of the year stretch.
Love this idea.

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07-14-2012, 10:07 AM
  #189
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The 6-foot-1, 200-pound Girgensons was the second of Buffalo's two first-round picks at the NHL Draft last month in Pittsburgh. He was taken 14th overall after a draft-night trade with Calgary, becoming the highest-drafted Latvian in NHL history. His deal will pay $925,000 per season.
http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/sa...ece?sabrespace

Quote:
BNHarrington Mike Harrington
Girgensons' 925K per season is the maximum allowed for entry-level deals. #Sabres
about 11 hours ago

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07-14-2012, 10:24 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
Honestly i can see them giving gus a go in the ahl if he doesnt make tue team out of camp....makes sense. The more i hear darcy and lindy talk about him, the more i think that he was the origional plan to take at 12 before grigorenko fell to us.
There's no doubt in my mind that he was their plan at 12.

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07-14-2012, 10:29 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by vcv View Post
There's no doubt in my mind that he was their plan at 12.
Didn't their draft comments make it seem like they liked Teravainen, but when they got Grigorenko, they felt Girgensons would be the better complement?

I think they wanted a high-end top line prospect first--not unlike taking Armia last year. When they got that, then it shifted to Girgensons. Maybe if Grigs was off the board, they would have gone with Teravainen/Girgensons (or even Faksa/Girgensons if they wanted that big center still).

I do think trading up for Girgensons was always in their plans though. But you may be right: if those other three forwards came off the board prior to the #12, Girgensons could be the pick.

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07-14-2012, 11:04 AM
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
Didn't their draft comments make it seem like they liked Teravainen, but when they got Grigorenko, they felt Girgensons would be the better complement?

I think they wanted a high-end top line prospect first--not unlike taking Armia last year. When they got that, then it shifted to Girgensons. Maybe if Grigs was off the board, they would have gone with Teravainen/Girgensons (or even Faksa/Girgensons if they wanted that big center still).

I do think trading up for Girgensons was always in their plans though. But you may be right: if those other three forwards came off the board prior to the #12, Girgensons could be the pick.
The way I'm parsing their draft comments and their behavior at D-camp is that their plan all along was to trade up and nab two guys - one of either Grigs or Tuevo, and then Girgs. They happened to have Grigs rated higher which is why they picked him at 12. At 14 they were locked into Girgs for a long time.

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07-14-2012, 11:06 AM
  #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoFFacet View Post
The way I'm parsing their draft comments and their behavior at D-camp is that their plan all along was to trade up and nab two guys - one of either Grigs or Tuevo, and then Girgs. They happened to have Grigs rated higher which is why they picked him at 12. At 14 they were locked into Girgs for a long time.
I just wish they got the guys that different last names ...

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07-14-2012, 01:30 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by vcv View Post
There's no doubt in my mind that he was their plan at 12.
Based on their post-draft comments, it seems like the original plan may have been Teravainen and one of Girgensons/Faksa. They said the deal with Calgary had been worked out about a week prior, so I think they were planning on taking their picks at 12 and 14. Grigorenko probably just replaced Tervainen as their target for a more purely offensive talent.

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07-14-2012, 02:00 PM
  #195
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This is a crown move, bro.

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07-14-2012, 02:03 PM
  #196
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This is a crown move, bro.
Does that make Leino's signing a root canal?

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07-14-2012, 02:37 PM
  #197
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Let me preface this by saying I respect people's rights to their own opinions.

I don't get why people are so down on this and have so little faith in the people whose job it is to make hockey decisions. Most of us are just armchair quarterbacks so to speak when it comes to this, we have day jobs and following and evaluating the Sabres is a hobby to varying degrees. I can't understand how any of us should feel like we know better than the actual hockey personnel of a franchise that IMO has had a pretty good track record in relatively recent history of developing its players, especially when compared to some other franchises. Besides, consider that it's not only Darcy that is making this decision... other hockey minds went into this decision.

In his tenure here Darcy and the Sabres have a history of being conservative with just about everything, including grooming and bringing along their prospects. He is changing and becoming less conservative but I don't think he is going to suddenly jeopardize the franchise's futures by rushing prospects due to some sort of perceived pressure from the owner. The supposition that he may be doing this because he is feeling pressure from ownership is weak at best. Darcy has Pegula's endorsement currently, I think Pegula can see Darcy's remodeling this franchise to be a winner both soon and in the long term. We have no indication that Terry Pegula is looking at a management change anytime soon either...

As far as people pointing to Tim Connolly as a shining example of not rushing a prospect, wasn't he rushed in by the Islander's franchise and by the time we got him he wasn't eligible to be sent down anymore without having to pass through waivers, ergo we were stuck with him being in the NHL.

Regarding prospects failure/success when being in the NHL so young I think you have to look at the following things.

1) The player themselves.
a) Do they have a good head on their shoulders, are they
mentally strong ? Just how high is their compete level ?
b) What type of game do they have ? Are they good prospects
based sheerly on skill and offensive ability or do they have
other aspects of their game that makes them a good prospect.
c) Do they have an NHL ready body and is their conditioning
appropriate for rigors of an 82 game NHL season ?

2) The state of the franchise and the support system it has for its
young players. How many veterans and good players are on the
team? Lots of prospects flounder because they come in and
need to be the savior of the franchise because the team has a
dearth of talent and/or veteran players and the pressure is too
much because they may not have the skill to carry the franchise
(few do, Crosby ... Ovechkin?) and lack the mental make up to
deal with those expectations and pressures

In the case of Girgensons I think you are looking at a pretty mature player that is mentally strong and a very high compete level. He has all the earmarks of a leader and future captain. He has a pretty complete game. He plays all 200' of the ice and so his value to the team is not just scoring and offense. He bring physicality and responsible play to the ice so if he doesn't become a scoring phenom immediately it's no biggie, he has other aspects of the game that will earn him ice time, which should maintain his confidence level and also earn the confidence of his coaching staff.

The team doesn't need him to be a scoring threat right away. We have veterans that fill that role with Vanek, Pominville, Stafford (hopefully) and we are looking at Leino, Hodgson and Ennis to step up their games and contribute more this season. As long as he continues to bring on ice presence in terms of physicality and the defensive zone he will be an asset. We can let him develop his offense in the NHL and gradually move him up in terms of linemates and offensive expectations. I don't think there will be much pressure on him to perform offensively as long as he can show up in the other areas he has shown a presence in.

Now this may be a rather lofty comparison but I think it is legit in terms of career path. Look at Ryan Kesler, the only difference I can think of is that Kesler already had 1 year of college under his belt when he was drafted.

Drafted in 2003, 23rd overall, Kesler signed a contract and split time in the AHL and NHL his first season instead of returning to college. The 2nd season he spent in the AHL entirely due to the lockout. Then in his third pro season, 05-06, he was a full timer in the NHL. At first in the NHL his role was that of a shutdown forward chipping in a bit on offense but he since become productive offensively.

If this is the career path that Girgensons can follow I'd be pretty happy.


Last edited by Mellifleur: 07-14-2012 at 03:49 PM.
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07-14-2012, 02:58 PM
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowOni View Post
Let me preface this by saying I respect people's rights to their own opinions.

I don't get why people are so down on this and have so little faith in the people whose job it is to make hockey decisions. Most of us are just armchair quarterbacks so to speak when it comes to this, we have day jobs and following and evaluating the Sabres is a hobby to varying degrees. I can't understand how any of us should feel like we know better than the actual hockey personnel of a franchise that IMO has had a pretty good track record in relatively recent history of developing its players, especially when compared to some other franchises. Besides, consider that it's not only Darcy that is making this decision... other hockey minds went into this decision.

In his tenure here Darcy and the Sabres have a history of being conservative with just about everything, including grooming and bringing along their prospects. He is changing and becoming less conservative but I don't think he is going to suddenly jeopardize the franchise's futures by rushing prospects due to some sort of perceived pressure from the owner. The supposition that he may be doing this because he is feeling pressure from ownership is weak at best. Darcy has Pegula's endorsement currently, I think Pegula can see Darcy's remodeling this franchise to be a winner both soon and in the long term. We have no indication that Terry Pegula is looking at a management change anytime soon either...

As far as people pointing to Tim Connolly as a shining example of not rushing a prospect, wasn't he rushed in by the Islander's franchise and by the time we got him he wasn't eligible to be sent down anymore without having to pass through waivers, ergo we were stuck with him being in the NHL.

Regarding prospects failure/success when being in the NHL so young I think you have to look at the following things.

1) The player themselves.
a) Do they have a good head on their shoulders, are they
mentally strong ? Just how high is their compete level ?
b) What type of game do they have ? Are they good prospects
based sheerly on skill and offensive ability or do they have
other aspects of their game that makes them a good prospect.
c) Do they have an NHL ready body and is their conditioning
appropriate for rigors of an 82 game NHL season ?

2) The state of the franchise and the support system it has for its
young players. How many veterans and good players are on the
team? Lots of prospects flounder because they come in and
need to be the savior of the franchise because the team has a
dearth of talent and/or veteran players and the pressure is too
much because they may not have the skill to carry the franchise
(few do, Crosby ... Ovechkin?) and lack the mental make up to
deal with those expectations and pressures

In the case of Girgensons I think you are looking at a pretty mature player that is mentally strong and a very high compete level. He has all the earmarks of a leader and future captain. He has a pretty complete game. He plays all 200' of the ice and so his value to the team is not just scoring and offense. He bring physicality and responsible play to the ice so if he doesn't become a scoring phenom immediately it's no biggie, he has other aspects of the game that will earn him ice time, which should maintain his confidence level and also earn the confidence of his coaching staff.

The team doesn't need him to be a scoring threat right away. We have veterans that fill that role with Vanek, Pominville, Stafford (hopefully) and we are looking at Leino, Hodgson and Ennis to step up their games and contribute more this season. As long as he continues to bring on ice presence in terms of physicality and the defensive zone he will be an asset. We can let him develop his offense in the NHL and gradually move him up in terms of linemates and offensive expectations. I don't think there will be much pressure on him to perform offensively as long as he can show up in the other areas he has shown a presence in.

Now this may be a rather lofty comparison but I think it is legit in terms of career path. Look at Ryan Kesler, the only difference I can think of is that Kesler already had 1 year of college under his belt when he was drafted.

Drafted in 2003, 23rd overall, Kesler signed a contract and split time in the AHL and NHL his first season instead of returning to college. The 2nd season he spent in the AHL entirely, so presumably the first season's split was due to injuries. Then in his third pro season, 05-06, he was a full timer in the NHL. At first in the NHL his role was that of a shutdown forward chipping in a bit on offense but he since become productive offensively.

If this is the career path that Girgensons can follow I'd be pretty happy.
Thank you, you summed up everything I wanted to say so perfectly. Obviously the comparison may not be justified as he's 18 years old, but the kid is clearly in the right place between the ears, has a high compete level, is vocal, and can contribute in more ways than just offensively. Couturier broke into the NHL at 18 and I think he's doing just fine, not every player is Couturier, but I have my doubts whether or not they're even going to start Zemgus in the NHL.

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07-14-2012, 03:00 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by jfb392 View Post
It's actually the same for everyone.
If a player signs at 18 it can slide for two years and at 19 it can slide for one.

You're probably thinking of when some teams choose to send European prospects back to their team in Europe for their 20 year old season, but that year is burned when they do so.
Some just view it as a better idea than having them toil in the AHL for a whole season if they clearly aren't ready (this is also my philosophy), so they're willing to lose that year.
Ok, I think I'm getting ahead of myself. I was reading the proposed changes for the CBA for the 2012-2013 season and the changes include letting 19 year old ELCs slide two years for those from Europe.

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07-14-2012, 03:08 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by ShadowOni View Post
Now this may be a rather lofty comparison but I think it is legit in terms of career path. Look at Ryan Kesler, the only difference I can think of is that Kesler already had 1 year of college under his belt when he was drafted.

Drafted in 2003, 23rd overall, Kesler signed a contract and split time in the AHL and NHL his first season instead of returning to college. The 2nd season he spent in the AHL entirely, so presumably the first season's split was due to injuries. Then in his third pro season, 05-06, he was a full timer in the NHL. At first in the NHL his role was that of a shutdown forward chipping in a bit on offense but he since become productive offensively.

If this is the career path that Girgensons can follow I'd be pretty happy.
And there's your problem right there.

Kesler was drafted at 19 because college players had to opt-in for the draft.
He played one season in college and started playing in the AHL at 19.
One year of college is way better than none and there's a big difference between a player that is 19 years old and a player that is 18 years old.

Kesler also looked like he was stunted by turning pro too early for some time.

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