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Barclay's Center & Brooklyn/Queens Talk Part III

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Old
09-25-2012, 05:16 PM
  #326
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I agree.

FYI, over the past 10 years with the product we have on ice and the condition of the old barn we averaged 84% capacity. New barn coupled with a team worth watching and 16,000 is an achievable goal.
While I agree winning would go a long way anywhere the fact is that in today's reality without corporate support 16K "regular" fans every night would still equal failure. So a big part of this question is, can Nassau provide this corporate support?

The other question I keep coming back to is Nassau's economic viability going forward. Not in terms of building an arena (Which they clearly cannot afford) but in terms of supporting the team in years to come.

What new businesses are opening up or growing in Nassau?

How many residents with their ever increasing tax burden/energy burden and stagnant personnel income growth will buy tickets on a regular basis?

Ask yourself this, if you were opening a new business would you choose Nassau county?

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09-25-2012, 05:23 PM
  #327
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Without taking the time to check stats, I would guess that the majority of the league does not sell out. But I will say that the Isles could play to 90% capacity if the team were winning consistently.

90% of 18,000 seats in a new arena in Nassau would be roughly 16,000 per night in attendance. Where would that put the Isles in average attendance league-wide?


And I also believe that there is enough corporate support in Nassau to fill luxury boxes if there is a product worthy of investing in. Banks, brokerage houses, Beverage distributorships that do business in the city also do business in Nassau County. I'm sure many of their employees and clients also live on the Island. There is an expanding media presence on Long Island with WLNY ch.10/55 having been taken over by WCBS-TV.

Your point about people working longer days than 9-5 and lack of public transportation is well taken. The Isles should take them into consideration and push the start times of weeknight games back to 7:30.

I simply believe that if we had a competent owner this team would be successful in Nassau. The revenue will be there.
No team wins consistently. Except Detroit. What happens during average or bad times? If you're only looking at good times then there's the non realistic problem.

16K average? Did you not see the link above showing brutal historical attendance averaging nowhere close to that? How does this magical increase suddenly change so much consistently? Again, not realistic.

There's a reason teams like the Caps, Kings, Lakers, Cavs etc have left the suburbs for the city. Corporate support and luxury box dollars are much more in the city than the burbs. Always has been.

The media is non existent on LI and looking at it through a bubble of TV55/LNY only is bigger in LI's small world not a normal size city type media coverage.

Wishing and hoping it doesn't make it a reality.

It's not ALL the owner's fault. Many of these issues existed before the problem owner(s).

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09-25-2012, 09:43 PM
  #328
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While I agree winning would go a long way anywhere the fact is that in today's reality without corporate support 16K "regular" fans every night would still equal failure. So a big part of this question is, can Nassau provide this corporate support?

The other question I keep coming back to is Nassau's economic viability going forward. Not in terms of building an arena (Which they clearly cannot afford) but in terms of supporting the team in years to come.

What new businesses are opening up or growing in Nassau?

How many residents with their ever increasing tax burden/energy burden and stagnant personnel income growth will buy tickets on a regular basis?

Ask yourself this, if you were opening a new business would you choose Nassau county?
not for another five to ten years......unless it meant getting the land or building dirt cheap during the hardest of times.

But I don't subscribe to a recession ending in total fallout and destruction of everything there. I firmly believe recoveries occur. Saw it in a movie once.

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09-25-2012, 11:15 PM
  #329
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No team wins consistently. Except Detroit. What happens during average or bad times? If you're only looking at good times then there's the non realistic problem.

16K average? Did you not see the link above showing brutal historical attendance averaging nowhere close to that? How does this magical increase suddenly change so much consistently? Again, not realistic.

There's a reason teams like the Caps, Kings, Lakers, Cavs etc have left the suburbs for the city. Corporate support and luxury box dollars are much more in the city than the burbs. Always has been.

The media is non existent on LI and looking at it through a bubble of TV55/LNY only is bigger in LI's small world not a normal size city type media coverage.

Wishing and hoping it doesn't make it a reality.

It's not ALL the owner's fault. Many of these issues existed before the problem owner(s).
The Caps, Kings, Cavs are the only teams in their market. The Islanders already draw from a specific area.

Also, all the media outlets have news bureaus on Long Island. Simpy being competitive will get the Daily News and the Post to assign a beat writer to follow the team to road games after February 1st, something that doesn't happen when the Isles have been eliminated from the playoff race by Thanksgiving. Give them a reason to come.

No team wins consistently but how many teams lose as consistently as the Isles? That would drive the fans away if they played in midtown, the financial district or Brooklyn.


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09-26-2012, 12:18 AM
  #330
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The Caps, Kings, Cavs are the only teams in their market. The Islanders already draw from a specific area.

Also, all the media outlets have news bureaus on Long Island. Simpy being competitive will get the Daily News and the Post to assign a beat writer to follow the team to road games after February 1st, something that doesn't happen when the Isles have been eliminated from the playoff race by Thanksgiving. Give them a reason to come.

No team wins consistently but how many teams lose as consistently as the Isles? That would drive the fans away if they played in midtown, the financial district or Brooklyn.
So what you're telling me......

exciting teams draw more interest than boring or awful teams?

C'mon now.....seriously?

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09-26-2012, 12:54 AM
  #331
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The Caps, Kings, Cavs are the only teams in their market. The Islanders already draw from a specific area.

Also, all the media outlets have news bureaus on Long Island. Simpy being competitive will get the Daily News and the Post to assign a beat writer to follow the team to road games after February 1st, something that doesn't happen when the Isles have been eliminated from the playoff race by Thanksgiving. Give them a reason to come.

No team wins consistently but how many teams lose as consistently as the Isles? That would drive the fans away if they played in midtown, the financial district or Brooklyn.
NYI doesn't draw period. That's the problem. Brooklyn allows to branch out to several areas in the region. Barclays is accessible to everywhere in the NY Metro area fairly easily. NVMC is not. LI is reliant on a much smaller radius around the arena than Brooklyn.

Since the Nets have left the suburbs and before they've played 1 game in Brooklyn they've sold out 90% of luxury boxes and sold 11K season tickets many to corporations not named King Kullen or Bethpage Credit Union but legitimate ones listed on on the DOW/NYSE whereas they had 4K STH's in Jersey, have had merchandise revenue, advertising revenue and corporate sponsorship go off the charts in comparison.

Every NYI team except the dynasty was ignored by the NY/national media. Just as successful Devil teams were. The burbs being the common denominator will do that. LI has no media of significant exposure. A beat writer only if they're winning is a pretty low standard.

Why did attendance suck right after the dynasty in the late 80s? They didn't show after success. That should've been enough good will to last many years after but it didn't and said everything about LI. So this theory of attendance being bad because they sucked for so long doesn't wash when it sucked right after the greatest team to ever play the game. Rangers missed the playoffs for 7 years in a row and sold out almost every game in midtown. A little something called corporate support did that when seats are sold even when teams lose consistently. Something LI doesn't have.

Your points would still be off but would mean something if LI had a new arena on the horizon BUT THEY DON'T.

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09-26-2012, 06:09 AM
  #332
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not for another five to ten years......unless it meant getting the land or building dirt cheap during the hardest of times.

But I don't subscribe to a recession ending in total fallout and destruction of everything there. I firmly believe recoveries occur. Saw it in a movie once.
So why wait for the recovery? Whats the upside when you have the option of going to a place where growth is current and, appears to be long term? (provided the deal is agreeable)

BTW with the Frank-Dodd legislation lobbied down to a worthless piece of paper the next recession is all but assured. It's just a mater of when the current house of cards (credit defaults currently being sold sold in another form) collapses under its own weight.

Buy Gold!

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09-26-2012, 07:57 AM
  #333
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curious to see if the isles get themselves on the receiving end of the revenue sharing program once dust eventually settles.

and of course , is it revoked should they move to brooklyn .

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09-26-2012, 08:54 AM
  #334
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So why wait for the recovery? Whats the upside when you have the option of going to a place where growth is current and, appears to be long term? (provided the deal is agreeable)

BTW with the Frank-Dodd legislation lobbied down to a worthless piece of paper the next recession is all but assured. It's just a mater of when the current house of cards (credit defaults currently being sold sold in another form) collapses under its own weight.

Buy Gold!
I like you now.

Scary how bad things have gotten. Regardless, I have faith things will turn around soon. You can't double property taxes and watch everyone leave Long Island without a fight happening. Man, the Isles are really an afterthought now!

But for the sake of argument, when a recovery happens, I would wager the debate would be whether you were in your market to take advantage or in another team's market as a tenant (unless Ratner buys) having moved West when the fanbase has moved East (Thank You Taxes!).

Sucks that three decades of allowing this to happen occurred.

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09-26-2012, 09:00 AM
  #335
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So what you're telling me......

exciting teams draw more interest than boring or awful teams?

C'mon now.....seriously?
Yes. What a concept.

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09-26-2012, 09:35 AM
  #336
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NYI doesn't draw period. That's the problem. Brooklyn allows to branch out to several areas in the region. Barclays is accessible to everywhere in the NY Metro area fairly easily. NVMC is not. LI is reliant on a much smaller radius around the arena than Brooklyn.

Since the Nets have left the suburbs and before they've played 1 game in Brooklyn they've sold out 90% of luxury boxes and sold 11K season tickets many to corporations not named King Kullen or Bethpage Credit Union but legitimate ones listed on on the DOW/NYSE whereas they had 4K STH's in Jersey, have had merchandise revenue, advertising revenue and corporate sponsorship go off the charts in comparison.

Every NYI team except the dynasty was ignored by the NY/national media. Just as successful Devil teams were. The burbs being the common denominator will do that. LI has no media of significant exposure. A beat writer only if they're winning is a pretty low standard.

Why did attendance suck right after the dynasty in the late 80s? They didn't show after success. That should've been enough good will to last many years after but it didn't and said everything about LI. So this theory of attendance being bad because they sucked for so long doesn't wash when it sucked right after the greatest team to ever play the game. Rangers missed the playoffs for 7 years in a row and sold out almost every game in midtown. A little something called corporate support did that when seats are sold even when teams lose consistently. Something LI doesn't have.

Your points would still be off but would mean something if LI had a new arena on the horizon BUT THEY DON'T.
I won't debate you point-by-point on the merits of Brooklyn because I agree with some of what you say. The team will be accessible to different people who may never venture out to Nassau. Whether they become the media darlings of the city will be determined by how they do on the ice. I think the Nets will enjoy an immediate uptick in attendance and merchandising, but will that last after the new arena smell is gone?

And your last point is best, there is no arena on the horizon. But Nassau county has a few years left to realize that they will lose revenue if the Isles leave.

Where I take issue with you is your characterization of Nassau being the equivalent of Hooterville on the sports landscape and King Kullen being the equivalent of Chico's Bail Bonds. You sound like you spent too many nights listening to Steve Somers on FAN instead of turning him off. The team will get attention from The News, Post and Times if you give them a reason to cover you and make yourself relevant. The press doesn't make the team relevant.

The NHL is a gate-driven, niche sport. No parallells should be drawn between us and the NBA. Give the fans a reason to attend and they will. The advertisers will follw, then the media, then Modells will start having a bigger selection of Isles merchandise instead of having to go to Cantiague Park to find the team store.

By the way, if a new arena in Nassau were to have those same non-Fortune 500 sponsors paying market rate for advertising and premium seats would it bother you? Their money is just as green as Citicorp's.

The region that the Isles play to has a population of over 7,000,000 people. Do you mean to tell me that there is no way for a competently run hockey team with a new arena that doens't have an onerous lease to be successful there?

And for the record, I am 49 years old, live in Queens my entire life and was an Islanders full season ticket holder from 1981-2004. My father had season tix from 1972-1981.

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09-26-2012, 09:58 AM
  #337
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I'

I won't debate you point-by-point on the merits of Brooklyn because I agree with some of what you say. The team will be accessible to different people who may never venture out to Nassau. Whether they become the media darlings of the city will be determined by how they do on the ice. I think the Nets will enjoy an immediate uptick in attendance and merchandising, but will that last after the new arena smell is gone?

And your last point is best, there is no arena on the horizon. But Nassau county has a few years left to realize that they will lose revenue if the Isles leave.

Where I take issue with you is your characterization of Nassau being the equivalent of Hooterville on the sports landscape and King Kullen being the equivalent of Chico's Bail Bonds. You sound like you spent too many nights listening to Steve Somers on FAN instead of turning him off. The team will get attention from The News, Post and Times if you give them a reason to cover you and make yourself relevant. The press doesn't make the team relevant.

The NHL is a gate-driven, niche sport. No parallells should be drawn between us and the NBA. Give the fans a reason to attend and they will. The advertisers will follw, then the media, then Modells will start having a bigger selection of Isles merchandise instead of having to go to Cantiague Park to find the team store.

By the way, if a new arena in Nassau were to have those same non-Fortune 500 sponsors paying market rate for advertising and premium seats would it bother you? Their money is just as green as Citicorp's.

The region that the Isles play to has a population of over 7,000,000 people. Do you mean to tell me that there is no way for a competently run hockey team with a new arena that doens't have an onerous lease to be successful there?

And for the record, I am 49 years old, live in Queens my entire life and was an Islanders full season ticket holder from 1981-2004. My father had season tix from 1972-1981.
so success sells is one argument, geography is the other. Let's look at the new stadium New York Mets attendance and their corporate support and ask if Brooklyn works.

The scenario I see:

We sell out. We don't have a top GM by any means and our owner scares away any GOOD coaches. We never compete. Our attendance then......

Nassau residents have to weigh whether it's worth driving an hour in traffic to see Matt Moulson apply makeup.
Suffolk residents have two hours at rush hour with Wang making games "kid friendly" at 7pm instead of 7:30 - won't happen.
Queens residents will be ambivalent. They'll show.
Brooklyn....new fans, but it's still NYR territory. The hope would be the next generation of kids will swear allegiance.

So you lose 75% potentially if the product is not stunningly good to make it worth traffic, parking, trains, higher ticket cost and a late night out to see. DEFINITELY losing the Suffolk fan, and as I've seen, Nassau is moving to Suffolk to escape the taxes.

So unless the team is GREAT, I see the same thing happening to the Mets happening to the local (Queens and Nassau) fans - not worth going - and the Suffolk fans definitely not going at an 80-90% clip.

So Brooklyn can only work if the team is a sure thing steadily for the next decade - long enough to convert Brooklyn and Queens Ranger families' kids into Isles fans.

It could happen.....but then we can discuss ownership and return on the arena IF it does. Will Wang field an exciting, competitive team to keep further away fans going, sell the arena out enough to make a profit in an arena he does not own or make significant revenue from and have the money from operations as a tenant to accomplish long term and steady success to fickle fans in the region?

That is asking A LOT. The corporate suits will have to come IN DROVES. And STAY FAITHFUL. This can't be a redux of the Mets at Citi Field attendance-wise or it will guarantee failure, and potentially a move elsewhere to survive.

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09-26-2012, 11:00 AM
  #338
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so success sells is one argument, geography is the other. Let's look at the new stadium New York Mets attendance and their corporate support and ask if Brooklyn works.

The scenario I see:

We sell out. We don't have a top GM by any means and our owner scares away any GOOD coaches. We never compete. Our attendance then......

Nassau residents have to weigh whether it's worth driving an hour in traffic to see Matt Moulson apply makeup.
Suffolk residents have two hours at rush hour with Wang making games "kid friendly" at 7pm instead of 7:30 - won't happen.
Queens residents will be ambivalent. They'll show.
Brooklyn....new fans, but it's still NYR territory. The hope would be the next generation of kids will swear allegiance.

So you lose 75% potentially if the product is not stunningly good to make it worth traffic, parking, trains, higher ticket cost and a late night out to see. DEFINITELY losing the Suffolk fan, and as I've seen, Nassau is moving to Suffolk to escape the taxes.

So unless the team is GREAT, I see the same thing happening to the Mets happening to the local (Queens and Nassau) fans - not worth going - and the Suffolk fans definitely not going at an 80-90% clip.

So Brooklyn can only work if the team is a sure thing steadily for the next decade - long enough to convert Brooklyn and Queens Ranger families' kids into Isles fans.

It could happen.....but then we can discuss ownership and return on the arena IF it does. Will Wang field an exciting, competitive team to keep further away fans going, sell the arena out enough to make a profit in an arena he does not own or make significant revenue from and have the money from operations as a tenant to accomplish long term and steady success to fickle fans in the region?

That is asking A LOT. The corporate suits will have to come IN DROVES. And STAY FAITHFUL. This can't be a redux of the Mets at Citi Field attendance-wise or it will guarantee failure, and potentially a move elsewhere to survive.
I largely agree with what you said. The way I see it the Isles have two main issues, where they will play and who owns the team.

From what I've read from Bert Marshall Days, he seems to think that the Isles haven't been successful in Nassau because whoever owns the team couldn't make enough money there because of the lease and lack of corporate support. He also seems to think that Charles Wang could be a competent owner if he had the money to spend from the revenue generated.

I say that Charles Wang could have money growing on trees in his back yard and this team would still fail wherever they play. as long as he still owns the team.

If Bruce Ratner owned the Isles, they would have a better chance of being successful in Brooklyn. Maybe.....

As for some of the nuts and bolts issues in your post, no matter what people say about the convenience of the LIRR vs. driving to the Nassau Colisuem, I don't see a whole lot of people continually making the trip in on the railroad to Brooklyn to see the Isles unless they are the second coming of the Dynasty years. Cost and convenince is not there for a family of 4 to come in to Brooklyn from Plainview. Just my opinion.

As an aside, when you think about it, when has this team EVER had competent ownership? Roy Boe had no money and had to juggle funds between the ISles and Nets his last few years. That gave way to one of his partners, John Pickett owning the team during the Stanley Cup years. Then he became an absentee owner and leased the team with the right to buy to the Gang Of Four. That gave way to the con man who had no money and is still in jail, which gave way to the two guys who wanted the team for the land it played on, which gave way to our current owner.

I think I liked Roy Boe the best. At least he actually wanted to own a hockey team.


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09-26-2012, 11:16 AM
  #339
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I like you now.

Scary how bad things have gotten. Regardless, I have faith things will turn around soon. You can't double property taxes and watch everyone leave Long Island without a fight happening. Man, the Isles are really an afterthought now!

But for the sake of argument, when a recovery happens, I would wager the debate would be whether you were in your market to take advantage or in another team's market as a tenant (unless Ratner buys) having moved West when the fanbase has moved East (Thank You Taxes!).

Sucks that three decades of allowing this to happen occurred.
My main point is that at some time the Islanders are going to have to live in the "now" and stop waiting for the future. (Both on and off the ice)

I think its safe to think that Wang only moves to Brooklyn with a favorable deal. (I wonder if Ratner would offer Wang the lions share of all the Islander revenues in return for right of first refusal to buy the team in five to ten years)

BTW another example of how bad Nassau has gotten, Mangano is proposing that a private investor pay the past due property tax returns as an investment to be repaid by the county (taxpayer) with interest at a later date! The finance authority is objecting.

With a recovery some places will recover faster and better than others. NYC is in pretty good shape right now and growth is pretty steady to rising.

How long until Nassau can recover and how good will that recovery be?

At this point if the county can stay afloat for the next five years I would call that a major miracle.

Growth?

IMHO can't see it happening.

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09-26-2012, 11:42 AM
  #340
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I'

I won't debate you point-by-point on the merits of Brooklyn because I agree with some of what you say. The team will be accessible to different people who may never venture out to Nassau. Whether they become the media darlings of the city will be determined by how they do on the ice. I think the Nets will enjoy an immediate uptick in attendance and merchandising, but will that last after the new arena smell is gone?

And your last point is best, there is no arena on the horizon. But Nassau county has a few years left to realize that they will lose revenue if the Isles leave.

Where I take issue with you is your characterization of Nassau being the equivalent of Hooterville on the sports landscape and King Kullen being the equivalent of Chico's Bail Bonds. You sound like you spent too many nights listening to Steve Somers on FAN instead of turning him off. The team will get attention from The News, Post and Times if you give them a reason to cover you and make yourself relevant. The press doesn't make the team relevant.

The NHL is a gate-driven, niche sport. No parallells should be drawn between us and the NBA. Give the fans a reason to attend and they will. The advertisers will follw, then the media, then Modells will start having a bigger selection of Isles merchandise instead of having to go to Cantiague Park to find the team store.

By the way, if a new arena in Nassau were to have those same non-Fortune 500 sponsors paying market rate for advertising and premium seats would it bother you? Their money is just as green as Citicorp's.

The region that the Isles play to has a population of over 7,000,000 people. Do you mean to tell me that there is no way for a competently run hockey team with a new arena that doens't have an onerous lease to be successful there?
And for the record, I am 49 years old, live in Queens my entire life and was an Islanders full season ticket holder from 1981-2004. My father had season tix from 1972-1981.
Here's where you're wrong. In Brooklyn, they'd get covered by the NY media DAILY win or lose. They're mentioned on NY TV newscasts etc DAILY. Papers would devote more attention with bigger articles reaching more people. That doesn't happen on LI now or in the best of times. Big difference.

You're way off on the whole corporate support revenue/give them a reason to attend stance and don't seem to realize gate driven support is dictated more importantly by corporate support than family support these days. More revenue comes via the former not latter. Even for the NHL. Again, no team wins consistently but corporate support provides revenue during average to down times. LI can't compete with that.

The non Fortune 500 companies wouldn't pay the same market rate as they would in Brooklyn because the suburbs don't command as much. Also, there are many more corporate partners and sponsors in Brooklyn than a new arena on LI could ever dream of. There's no comparison. Big difference. Read the article on the link at the bottom and it explains a lot -

The population doesn't matter if nobody cares as LI has proven. As the late 80's showed, as the private funded Lighthouse project and public referendum overwhelming shoot downs showed, as only 10% of potential voters voting for the referendum showed, as historical attendance has showed, as lack of corporate support has showed, as no urgency to get a new arena has showed, as having no new arena planned has showed.

You're trying to manufacture something that isn't there. LI wants to stay small suburbs with no growth, no arena, no significant corporate support, no hope and doesn't have (doesn't want to pay) the money to advance.

The main point is how does a franchise get run competently without enough revenue to do it? As LI has shown. NYI has a generous sub-lease now, a lucrative TV contract and STILL are the lowest revenue team in the NHL. Nothing would ever change on LI. With a new arena they'd still be the KC Royals and Pitt Pirates of hockey because of small market limited revenue and non-growth.


Barclays Center signs new deals ahead of opening


The Barclays Center has unveiled a host of new corporate partners....and have become members of the Barclays Center Business Alliance.

Several of the new sponsors will have sponsorship rights..integrated partnerships of the new sponsors.

The Barclays Center has ten founding partners worth several million dollars each with American Honda Motor Co., American Express, Calvin Klein, Cushman & Wakefield, EmblemHealth, Foxwoods Resort Casino, Geico, MetroPCS, Stolichnaya, and Ticketmaster.

We are proud that Barclays Center will debut with an outstanding family of corporate partners, said Barclays Center and Brooklyn Nets chief executive Brett Yormark. Its clear that the business community sees the excitement and benefits of being part of a spectacular venue in the heart of world commerce



http://www.sportspromedia.com/news/b...grand_opening/

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09-26-2012, 11:57 AM
  #341
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From what I've read from Bert Marshall Days, he seems to think that the Isles haven't been successful in Nassau because whoever owns the team couldn't make enough money there because of the lease and lack of corporate support. He also seems to think that Charles Wang could be a competent owner if he had the money to spend from the revenue generated.

I say that Charles Wang could have money growing on trees in his back yard and this team would still fail wherever they play. as long as he still owns the team.

If Bruce Ratner owned the Isles, they would have a better chance of being successful in Brooklyn. Maybe.....

As for some of the nuts and bolts issues in your post, no matter what people say about the convenience of the LIRR vs. driving to the Nassau Colisuem, I don't see a whole lot of people continually making the trip in on the railroad to Brooklyn to see the Isles unless they are the second coming of the Dynasty years. Cost and convenince is not there for a family of 4 to come in to Brooklyn from Plainview. Just my opinion.

As an aside, when you think about it, when has this team EVER had competent ownership? Roy Boe had no money and had to juggle funds between the ISles and Nets his last few years. That gave way to one of his partners, John Pickett owning the team during the Stanley Cup years. Then he became an absentee owner and leased the team with the right to buy to the Gang Of Four. That gave way to the con man who had no money and is still in jail, which gave way to the two guys who wanted the team for the land it played on, which gave way to our current owner.

I think I liked Roy Boe the best. At least he actually wanted to own a hockey team.
Don't wrongly put words in my mouth. Even I would have my doubts with Wang to succeed if he had enough revenue to compete but the point is we'll never know because he and all the other owners post free agency haven't.

Ratner or a partner owning NYI in Brooklyn would be the best scenario.

The family of 4 going to Brooklyn from Plainview would be replaced by my family of 5 coming in from working in manhattan and living in the northern suburbs. They'd be replaced 2 times over by similar folks. It wouldn't be hard to increase 3K full STH's that NYI have now.

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09-26-2012, 01:20 PM
  #342
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Here's where you're wrong. In Brooklyn, they'd get covered by the NY media DAILY win or lose. They're mentioned on NY TV newscasts etc DAILY. Papers would devote more attention with bigger articles reaching more people. That doesn't happen on LI now or in the best of times. Big difference.

You're way off on the whole corporate support revenue/give them a reason to attend stance and don't seem to realize gate driven support is dictated more importantly by corporate support than family support these days. More revenue comes via the former not latter. Even for the NHL. Again, no team wins consistently but corporate support provides revenue during average to down times. LI can't compete with that.

The non Fortune 500 companies wouldn't pay the same market rate as they would in Brooklyn because the suburbs don't command as much. Also, there are many more corporate partners and sponsors in Brooklyn than a new arena on LI could ever dream of. There's no comparison. Big difference. Read the article on the link at the bottom and it explains a lot -

The population doesn't matter if nobody cares as LI has proven. As the late 80's showed, as the private funded Lighthouse project and public referendum overwhelming shoot downs showed, as only 10% of potential voters voting for the referendum showed, as historical attendance has showed, as lack of corporate support has showed, as no urgency to get a new arena has showed, as having no new arena planned has showed.

You're trying to manufacture something that isn't there. LI wants to stay small suburbs with no growth, no arena, no significant corporate support, no hope and doesn't have (doesn't want to pay) the money to advance.

The main point is how does a franchise get run competently without enough revenue to do it? As LI has shown. NYI has a generous sub-lease now, a lucrative TV contract and STILL are the lowest revenue team in the NHL. Nothing would ever change on LI. With a new arena they'd still be the KC Royals and Pitt Pirates of hockey because of small market limited revenue and non-growth.


Barclays Center signs new deals ahead of opening


The Barclays Center has unveiled a host of new corporate partners....and have become members of the Barclays Center Business Alliance.

Several of the new sponsors will have sponsorship rights..integrated partnerships of the new sponsors.

The Barclays Center has ten founding partners worth several million dollars each with American Honda Motor Co., American Express, Calvin Klein, Cushman & Wakefield, EmblemHealth, Foxwoods Resort Casino, Geico, MetroPCS, Stolichnaya, and Ticketmaster.

We are proud that Barclays Center will debut with an outstanding family of corporate partners, said Barclays Center and Brooklyn Nets chief executive Brett Yormark. Its clear that the business community sees the excitement and benefits of being part of a spectacular venue in the heart of world commerce



http://www.sportspromedia.com/news/b...grand_opening/
I agree with you about one thing. If Nassau County politicians continue along this road, the idea of no growth and no planning for the future, this debate won't matter because the Islanders won't be in Nassau County anymore.

The other stuff we will have to agree to disagree on. The NY media will come to cover this team in Nassau if successful because they did before. And I read the article you linked but can you tell me why those same sponsors will not go 35 miles east of Manhattan? They sell Hondas on Long Island. I once bought one from a dealership in Manhasset.

As to your main point, even with the current generous sub-lease, with teams relying heavily on the gate to make money, I say too much damage has been done to get fans or sponsors to show up anymore. It would take a FEW winning seasons to get people to buy full season tickets again.

One of the Isles probelms is that since the beginning of the age of free agency the Islanders were mired with owners who didn't have the wherewithall to ice a successful product.

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09-26-2012, 01:25 PM
  #343
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Don't wrongly put words in my mouth. Even I would have my doubts with Wang to succeed if he had enough revenue to compete but the point is we'll never know because he and all the other owners post free agency haven't.

Ratner or a partner owning NYI in Brooklyn would be the best scenario.

The family of 4 going to Brooklyn from Plainview would be replaced by my family of 5 coming in from working in manhattan and living in the northern suburbs. They'd be replaced 2 times over by similar folks. It wouldn't be hard to increase 3K full STH's that NYI have now.
I just don't see that happening on a consistent basis. Too inconvenient and too expensive to travel to Brooklyn via Metro-North and the subway. Which in a way goes to bolster your point about the NHL being gate driven by corporate ticket holders. Many nights Rangers games at MSG are listed as sold out but plenty of empty seats can be seen.

The family of 4 in Plainview is still there. Why not try to get them back into the building. Give them a reason to care.

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09-26-2012, 01:39 PM
  #344
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Being in NYC would allow them to open up to an entirely new market. I know I'd go to a ton more games not having to drive 3 hours each way any more. I live in Orange County and everybody here is a Ranger or Devil fan because attending the games is actually accessible. It would be a lot better making a 6 hour total trip into a 3 hour total trip. Then again, one thing that is really overlooked is the lack of parking. You have to pay $40 to park .3 mile from the arena.

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09-26-2012, 01:47 PM
  #345
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I just don't see that happening on a consistent basis. Too inconvenient and too expensive to travel to Brooklyn via Metro-North and the subway. Which in a way goes to bolster your point about the NHL being gate driven by corporate ticket holders. Many nights Rangers games at MSG are listed as sold out but plenty of empty seats can be seen.

The family of 4 in Plainview is still there. Why not try to get them back into the building. Give them a reason to care.
In terms of hockey (and many other discretionary spending items) they are no longer "there"

Rising school taxes
Rising energy costs
Stagnant job growth
Rising post secondary educational costs
Personal wealth (value of real estate) decrease.

The fact of the matter is that the family of four going to the occasional game is nothing more than "filler" in today's sports market. What teams need to have a sound financial footing is corporate support ($250,000 luxury boxes, $500 face value tickets, arena naming rights, corporate advertising) the big bucks signed to long term contracts.

Arguing about the average Joe and Jane going to the game really has much smaller bearing in the context of today's sports finance.

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09-26-2012, 02:19 PM
  #346
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Can anyone really say that a move to a new arena in a metro-area, with big corporate sponsors, and expensive boxes is the answer?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...Sports_threeup

New York is a fickle town.

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09-26-2012, 02:54 PM
  #347
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In terms of hockey (and many other discretionary spending items) they are no longer "there"

Rising school taxes
Rising energy costs
Stagnant job growth
Rising post secondary educational costs
Personal wealth (value of real estate) decrease.

The fact of the matter is that the family of four going to the occasional game is nothing more than "filler" in today's sports market. What teams need to have a sound financial footing is corporate support ($250,000 luxury boxes, $500 face value tickets, arena naming rights, corporate advertising) the big bucks signed to long term contracts.

Arguing about the average Joe and Jane going to the game really has much smaller bearing in the context of today's sports finance.

Too bad. It may mean that more and more of us will be relegated to watching games on TV unless you are lucky enough to know someone who will give you tickets or you are employed by one of the sponsors.

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09-26-2012, 03:42 PM
  #348
Bert Marshall days
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Originally Posted by IslesArchieFan View Post
Can anyone really say that a move to a new arena in a metro-area, with big corporate sponsors, and expensive boxes is the answer?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...Sports_threeup

New York is a fickle town.
You mean the Mets who are top 5 in revenue, payroll and value and lose because of bad management?

I'll take my chances if NYI is top 5 in revenue, payroll and value and hope for better management in a corporate supported metro area.

What I can say is last in revenue, last in payroll and bottom 5 in value as NYI is on LI is not the answer at all.

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09-26-2012, 04:01 PM
  #349
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I just don't see that happening on a consistent basis. Too inconvenient and too expensive to travel to Brooklyn via Metro-North and the subway. Which in a way goes to bolster your point about the NHL being gate driven by corporate ticket holders. Many nights Rangers games at MSG are listed as sold out but plenty of empty seats can be seen.

The family of 4 in Plainview is still there. Why not try to get them back into the building. Give them a reason to care.
Lorwood's reply explains it. You have to realize it wouldn't only be from Metro North and the subway but from ALL regions and a new, expanded fanbase would be cultivated as well as those from LI who wanted to go. Yes, the corporate support would cover the doubtful/average situations.

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09-26-2012, 04:03 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by IslesArchieFan View Post
Can anyone really say that a move to a new arena in a metro-area, with big corporate sponsors, and expensive boxes is the answer?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...Sports_threeup

New York is a fickle town.
True, but isn't Citi Field open for 6 months every year? An arena would be in business year round where its anchor tenant could collect money from events that don't feature them.

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