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Your Opinion of Ray Shero

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Old
07-30-2012, 02:10 AM
  #901
Malkin4Top6Wingerz
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Rather than write another long-winded response to the minutia we've been poring over, I'll just say that I think we can both admit that Semin's had enough criticism from all corners, and enough playoff duds, to suggest that the "enigma with motivation issues" label is hardly unfounded, whatever his nationality. You believe it's blown out of proportion, I believe it's got merit, and we've both got our cases.
Fair enough.

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I'd have given him a handsome contract based on his talent and RH shot alone, but 7 mil is absurd for a player with his recent struggles, short-term commitment or not. It's just unused cap space to us, but if you're a GM, you have to justify giving 7 million real world dollars to this guy.
You justify it because it makes your team a whole hell of a lot better. What's the difference between paying Semin $6m and $7m on a one year deal in our situation? Who are we going to miss out on that we needed to sign? Trades are purely hypothetical and I have a difficult time envisioning how donating another million to Semin prevents us from making whatever deal we pray Shero has up his sleeve.

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Let's see what Shero does with the extra cap space before we criticize him because he didn't seriously overpay for a guy with one of the worst reps in the league, coming off his worst season since his rookie year. We have bar-none the best defense pool in the league, and I feel the best trading GM in the NHL can parlay that into some legitimate top 6 help that doesn't have Semin's question marks.
I can't help but be a little concerned. Shero's notable trades of defenseman involved guys who were already established in the NHL, which none of our defensive prospects are at this point in time. I do admire your optimism, but I can't say that I share it. A year or two down the road? Sure, some our defenseman could garner significant NHL returns. And that's all the more reason to take a chance on Semin for a year.

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07-30-2012, 08:53 AM
  #902
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
You justify it because it makes your team a whole hell of a lot better. What's the difference between paying Semin $6m and $7m on a one year deal in our situation? Who are we going to miss out on that we needed to sign? Trades are purely hypothetical and I have a difficult time envisioning how donating another million to Semin prevents us from making whatever deal we pray Shero has up his sleeve.
Can we really say that regarding Semin, with 7 million dollars of certainty, given his track record? The best his team ever fared in the playoffs during his tenure there was when he was given career-low responsibility, and scored 4 points in 14 games.

We obviously haven't had any trouble scoring in the regular season, and Semin's hardly a sure bet to improve anyone in the playoffs.

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I can't help but be a little concerned. Shero's notable trades of defenseman involved guys who were already established in the NHL, which none of our defensive prospects are at this point in time. I do admire your optimism, but I can't say that I share it. A year or two down the road? Sure, some our defenseman could garner significant NHL returns. And that's all the more reason to take a chance on Semin for a year.
We have the depth and quality to include two high-end defense prospects - essentially rebuilding a trade partner's blueline pool - and a 1st in a great draft for the right winger, and I believe everything points to Shero wanting the right winger this year (not just a placeholder). That gives us a lot of very valuable chips, and if anyone can make the most of them, it's Shero.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. He deserves it with his trade history.

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07-30-2012, 08:59 AM
  #903
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It's just a shame to see Crosby entering his (statistical) peak years and there is still no real top-line winger to be found for him. Now with cap space to boot.

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07-30-2012, 09:16 AM
  #904
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
I know you didn't specify me, but I was not 'putting him down'. You brought his name up as one of the reasons why we don't need Semin. 'Let the young guys get their shot', as you put it. Well, even if Tangradi is as ready as you claim, you believe that Bylsma has it out the kid. Why would we neglect a high profile free agent for an unproven rookie who you believe is in the coach's doghouse? It doesn't add up.
I don't believe DB "has it out" for him. I believe he has never developed a young fwd before and has no clue how to do it. He would rather rely on vets and if a rookie struggles at first like Tangradi, he blows him off.

As I said already, he has no choice but to give him ice time now if Shero doesn't fill the roster with vets. I've stated many times when he gets legit ice time that DB will have no choice but to keep playing him. Tangradi won't be the first player to ever fight through the adversity of having a coach like DB and make it in the NHL.

Just because you coach in the NHL, it doesn't mean you know how to develop talent or are infallible.

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Here's a perfect example of you wanting to have it both ways.

When New Jersey and Detroit have a gaping hole in their top 6 with an abundance of cap space to fill, red flags are raised when Semin signs elsewhere. All previous criticisms directed towards him are now validated.

Meanwhile we have had a top 6 spot available for years just waiting for a young gun like Tangradi to sieze the opportunity and thrive alongside Sid or Geno. When it doesn't happen, it's not a red flag with the player, it's a problem with the coach. The same coach who watches Tangradi every single day in practice and recieves input from coaches, scouts, and the GM who traded for him. The same coach who has won a Stanley Cup and a Jack Adams in seperate years.

Why doesn't an elite coach get the benefit of the doubt over a player who has proved exactly nothing in the NHL?
The same coach who didn't make any of the proper adjustments agt the Flyers while leading them to the most embarrassing playoff loss in franchise history and one of the worst PK playoff performances in modern times?

Again, he isn't infallible.

Please point out any fwd prospects he has developed during his tenure. We can do the chicken or the egg debate, but he hasn't shown he can develop them. He has shown a penchant for relying on vets, to a fault. He has also botched Tangradi's development. Tangradi has never hurt this team when he is on the ice and even when he had a good shift or two, he still got benched. Re-watch the games if you don't believe me. He simply has little patience for allowing a young fwd to find his game. None. Yet I have consistently pointed out one example after another of how this type of patience is necessary for prospect development.

Tangradi in jrs and in the A has excelled every single time he was given big minutes. Even his most ardent haters would of been impressed with his play in the AHL playoffs this year. He works his ass off, gets ****ed over by his coach and there was even a report of how pissed off he was when he got sent down at one point. Yet he never sulks and keeps at it.

Despite all of this, he gets ragged on by idiot fans. That is why I keep defending him. He isn't even one of my favorite prospects, as I pointed out several times beforehand, but I find myself constantly having to defend him and the process over and over.

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I was very high on Jeff Skinner on the draft a few years back. I didn't follow his junior career at all but I had seen several highlight videos that impressed me. I was PRAYING that we would move up and take him. Unfortunately I haven't gotten any responses from NHL teams after sending in a resume that read "is sometimes right on the internet."
I have followed prospects since I was 12. It is something I do for fun, not to work in the NHL or impress posters like you. I talk about our prospects as a favor to posters like TD and IHWR because the three of us have been sharing our thoughts on here for years and comparing notes on our favorite prospects.

If you or other posters read my thoughts and like it or not, cool. I honestly post my thoughts for a select few people I respect and beyond that I honestly don't care. But if someone asks me about a prospect I have seen, I have no problem sharing what I know.

Of course when someone talks stupid about Tangradi, DP, etc I will put my two cents in because I hate when people talk out of their ass.

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And no offense, but saying Malkin 'could be as good' as Ovechkin is hardly going out on a limb. They were the consensus 1-2 in the draft and nobody would have been shocked to see Malkin have the better career considering what his ceiling was. It's also a tad early to be patting yourself on the back on that one. Ovechkin has probably had the better career up until this point, although both are trending in opposite directions and Geno is clearly better at this point in time.
Ya sorry bro but that is easy to say now.

It's obvious you weren't here at that time. This board thought AO was the second coming and had their hopes up to land him. For months I was trying to say if the Pens finished last and had a shot at either it would be like striking gold. When the Pens lost the lottery, the board lost it. I kept explaining about how good Malkin was, that he was very close to AO, etc.

People went ballistic on me in the thread and for many months afterwards. Again if you think there was some consensus they were equal, feel free to read the 04 lottery thread.

You want to claim this is me patting myself on the back, while I am straight out telling you it is me saying that just because a bunch of people want to challenge my opinion, doesn't mean I'll change my mind when I trust my own eyes.

My opinion on Malkin is just a perfect example of how a litany of people told me I was an idiot and a homer, etc and I didn't change my mind. You just seem to prefer to take this another way, so be it.

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You know who has seen Tangradi play a lot more than you? The people who are responsible for handing out lineup cards and allocating ice time.
DB has the final say on the lineup.

How did that lineup he made work out for him on the way to the most embarrassing playoff loss in franchise history?

Again, he isn't infallible.

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It doesn't take elite talent to outshine fourth liners. As for Tangradi's playmaking not meshing with pluggers, do you recall many instances where Tangradi made a great feed and his linemates simply couldn't bury it? Because I don't. His problem was that he looked confused out on the ice like he didn't know where he was supposed to be. His skating and puck skills also left a lot to be desired, as did his finish. Nothing about his performance in the NHL has sold me on his potential as a top 9 forward.
Tangradi didn't look confused at the end of the season or in his brief playoff appearance. He also started to show some of his playmaking skills at the end of the season as well. If you have selective memory, I can't do a thing about it.

Schenn and Seguin are both apt playmakers and their skills didn't shine on the fourth line either... I already discussed Schenn and Seguin had one point in his last 20 games to finish out his rookie year. Both of these ultra talented kids played almost a full season in the league with consistent minutes and were still struggling by the end of the year.

What does that tell you about people expecting a less talented kid to excel, with random NHL minutes?

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Fans will call a high ranked prospect a bust if he doesn't score a goal in his first three games.

Your point has validity, but contending teams don't tend to thrust B caliber prospects into prominent roles when they don't feel as if they've earned them. They certainly don't stick with that plan when it isn't working just because sometimes certain prospects take a while to put it all together. It's up to the player to make the most of whatever opportunities come along his way. When what's best for a prospect comes at the expense of the team, your priorities need refocusing.
The Pens were something like 14-1 at one point with Tangradi in the lineup last season. So he wasn't hurting them. This team also has found ways to win without Crosby, Staal and Malkin in the lineup.

Yet you want to tell me that giving Tangradi a regular 4th line shift would somehow compromise their ability to win? Going fwd it is common sense to assume with DB at the helm, nothing will be given to Tangradi, even regular 4th line minutes. If he is in a prominent role, it will be because he more than earned it.

Also, again, did King hurt LA? Last I recall he is a big reason Richards gets to bend porn stars over the cup this season.

If an org can't win with young players in the lineup, that is when they need to refocus their priorities. You won't be a winning franchise for long in this league if you don't learn how to balance prospect development and cup contention.

The last two cup winners iced three rookies in their lineup, so it can obviously be done.


Last edited by Mr Jiggyfly: 07-30-2012 at 09:25 AM.
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Old
07-30-2012, 09:17 AM
  #905
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Your Opinion of Ray Shero
In Shero we trust...

That is all.

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Old
07-30-2012, 09:51 AM
  #906
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Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
It's just a shame to see Crosby entering his (statistical) peak years and there is still no real top-line winger to be found for him. Now with cap space to boot.
We actually have two top line wingers. He's been playing with one of them since 2009 barring his stint last year where Malkin had both.

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07-30-2012, 10:33 AM
  #907
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post

The Pens were something like 14-1 at one point with Tangradi in the lineup last season. So he wasn't hurting them. This team also has found ways to win without Crosby, Staal and Malkin in the lineup.

Also, again, did King hurt LA? Last I recall he is a big reason Richards gets to bend porn stars over the cup this season.
Tangradi happened to be playing on the team when they went on that impressive run in February and March. What specifically about his game contributed to the Pens winning all of those games? If the Pens went 1-14 with him in the lineup, I am sure he wouldnt receive any criticism on this site since he only plays like 8 minutes a game. But the Pens won a bunch of games and he happened to be playing, surely he has to be a big factor. I just find it hard to believe that the Pens would not have won the same amount of games with or without him. He did have 2 crucial assists all season, and 1 did occur during the Pens winning street.

I just want to know specifically how he helped the Pens win those cluster of games.

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07-30-2012, 10:39 AM
  #908
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
We actually have two top line wingers. He's been playing with one of them since 2009 barring his stint last year where Malkin had both.
I understand that Kunitz brings more than the stats would indicate, but he is not a top-line winger on just about every other team in the league. We've seen what Kunitz does without Crosby/Malkin. Crosby needs at least one winger similar (enough) in skill set to Neal. Otherwise we're never going to see just how good he can actually be.

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07-30-2012, 10:40 AM
  #909
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Originally Posted by Von Malkin View Post
Tangradi happened to be playing on the team when they went on that impressive run in February and March. What specifically about his game contributed to the Pens winning all of those games? If the Pens went 1-14 with him in the lineup, I am sure he wouldnt receive any criticism on this site since he only plays like 8 minutes a game. But the Pens won a bunch of games and he happened to be playing, surely he has to be a big factor. I just find it hard to believe that the Pens would not have won the same amount of games with or without him. He did have 2 crucial assists all season, and 1 did occur during the Pens winning street.

I just want to know specifically how he helped the Pens win those cluster of games.
all he said is Tangradi clearly wasn't hurting them. Meaning it wouldn't have hurt us to give him a chance.

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07-30-2012, 10:50 AM
  #910
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Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
I understand that Kunitz brings more than the stats would indicate, but he is not a top-line winger on just about every other team in the league. We've seen what Kunitz does without Crosby/Malkin. Crosby needs at least one winger similar (enough) in skill set to Neal. Otherwise we're never going to see just how good he can actually be.
How spoiled are we when Chris Kunitz doesn't even count as a top line forward? 57 forwards had 60 points or more last season. 19 of them are centers according to NHL.com That makes Kunitz one of 38 wings to get 60+ points. Considering there are roughly 90 top 6 forward positions and 60 top 6 wings positions available at any given time in this league, Kunitz is absolutely a top 6 forward. If you want to argue within the top 6 and say he's a 2nd line forward fine. He's a very good 2nd line forward. And by the way, he had a 50 and a 60 point season with the Ducks. He doesn't need Crosby or Malkin to be effective.

This team does not need another James Neal. It would be nice, but it is not a necessity.

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07-30-2012, 11:09 AM
  #911
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
How spoiled are we when Chris Kunitz doesn't even count as a top line forward? 57 forwards had 60 points or more last season. 19 of them are centers according to NHL.com That makes Kunitz one of 38 wings to get 60+ points.
He also played with the NHL First Team All Star center AND right wing. Seems like it would be difficult to score less than 60 points when put in that scenario. It's quit obvious that that is his ceiling also. And that's fine, but Sid should get to play with someone capable of a little more on a regular basis. Kunitz can be there too, but hopefully not as the #1 wing option on his line.

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07-30-2012, 11:13 AM
  #912
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I'd say we could use some more size and someone who can carry the puck with regularity. It'd certainly keep Sid/Geno from wearing down over the course of the season.

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07-30-2012, 11:28 AM
  #913
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He also played with the NHL First Team All Star center AND right wing. Seems like it would be difficult to score less than 60 points when put in that scenario.
Well if it's that easy to get 60 points with Geno and Neal then we might as well throw Tangradi in that spot then.

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It's quit obvious that that is his ceiling also. And that's fine, but Sid should get to play with someone capable of a little more on a regular basis. Kunitz can be there too, but hopefully not as the #1 wing option on his line.
that's fine. It would be nice. All of this was just me pointing out my disagreement with your original statement about him having no top line wing to play with. Anyone who won't be happy without bringing in another James Neal has a very good chance of being disappointed because there aren't many out there and we aren't the only team that wants them. In fact, we have less of a need for top goal scorers than almost every other team in the league. We need guys that will help us carry the play. If they can score 30 goals, great.

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07-30-2012, 11:31 AM
  #914
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Well if it's that easy to get 60 points with Geno and Neal then we might as well throw Tangradi in that spot then.
well played

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07-30-2012, 11:41 AM
  #915
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I've been following this thread pretty lightly, but I'll just chime in with my two cents quick.

I'm fine with Shero going into next season with the roster as it is. There isn't much left on the free-agency market to get excited about and unless the right deal comes along, Shero understandably isn't going to make a trade. I'd like to see some young players get more time anyways. But if we're nearing the deadline and there's obvious need at either wing or defense, then Shero doesn't have many excuses to not make a move. He's got plenty of assets and cap-space to get it done and make a serious cup run. But everyone acting like he's needed to make a move yesterday, are sounding pretty ****ing retarded.

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07-30-2012, 11:49 AM
  #916
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I like Kunitz, I think he is a solid player. He should clearly not be the best winger on any line though. He's a solid 3rd wheel on the top 2 lines. Kunitz has been so fortunate; he's played with Teemu Selanne and Sidney Crosby for almost his entire career. I honestly believe if he played a year with a non future hall of famer, he would score around 15 goals and 20 assists. That is just my opinion. I realize he does more than just score, I am just saying I really believe his stats are soooo inflated.

Look at Andy McDonald. His numbers were insane in Anaheim when he too played with Selanne for 2 years. He scored 85 points in 2006 and 78 in 2007. McDonald has scored less than 50 points every season but 1 since he played with Selanne. Kunitz put up 60 and 50 points in those 2 seasons. That was one hell of a line.

We will never know how Kunitz would play without the luxury of playing with great players. But I really think his numbers are inflated big time here and Anaheim. I really dont think he is 60 point player, more of a 40 pt kind of guy.

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07-30-2012, 12:00 PM
  #917
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Originally Posted by Von Malkin View Post
I like Kunitz, I think he is a solid player. He should clearly not be the best winger on any line though. He's a solid 3rd wheel on the top 2 lines. Kunitz has been so fortunate; he's played with Teemu Selanne and Sidney Crosby for almost his entire career. I honestly believe if he played a year with a non future hall of famer, he would score around 15 goals and 20 assists. That is just my opinion. I realize he does more than just score, I am just saying I really believe his stats are soooo inflated.

Look at Andy McDonald. His numbers were insane in Anaheim when he too played with Selanne for 2 years. He scored 85 points in 2006 and 78 in 2007. McDonald has scored less than 50 points every season but 1 since he played with Selanne. Kunitz put up 60 and 50 points in those 2 seasons. That was one hell of a line.

We will never know how Kunitz would play without the luxury of playing with great players. But I really think his numbers are inflated big time here and Anaheim. I really dont think he is 60 point player, more of a 40 pt kind of guy.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I was getting at. I never wanted to be one of those "get Sid a winger or die trying" kind of people, but he is heading into his 8th season in the league and deserves better. Shero had much longer than this offseason to address this glaring issue.

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07-30-2012, 12:00 PM
  #918
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Originally Posted by Von Malkin View Post
I like Kunitz, I think he is a solid player. He should clearly not be the best winger on any line though. He's a solid 3rd wheel on the top 2 lines. Kunitz has been so fortunate; he's played with Teemu Selanne and Sidney Crosby for almost his entire career. I honestly believe if he played a year with a non future hall of famer, he would score around 15 goals and 20 assists. That is just my opinion. I realize he does more than just score, I am just saying I really believe his stats are soooo inflated.

Look at Andy McDonald. His numbers were insane in Anaheim when he too played with Selanne for 2 years. He scored 85 points in 2006 and 78 in 2007. McDonald has scored less than 50 points every season but 1 since he played with Selanne. Kunitz put up 60 and 50 points in those 2 seasons. That was one hell of a line.

We will never know how Kunitz would play without the luxury of playing with great players. But I really think his numbers are inflated big time here and Anaheim. I really dont think he is 60 point player, more of a 40 pt kind of guy.
does that matter at all? I'm not saying I disagree entirely, but do we really care how our top 6 guys would play without Sid or Geno?

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07-30-2012, 12:04 PM
  #919
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He's got plenty of assets and cap-space to get it done and make a serious cup run. But everyone acting like he's needed to make a move yesterday, are sounding pretty ****ing retarded.
What assets are you referring to? We dont have a Ryan Whitney or Alex Goligoski on this team, you know, an NHL proven puck moving defenseman that Shero would trade. We have a bunch of prospects, possibilities. I constantly see 2 names come up in regards to Pens trades, Paul Martin and Tyler Kennedy. Do you really think that either of these guys is going to generate much interest from around the league? I dont.

My biggest problem with Shero was the fact that we dont have forwards on the verge of cracking the top 6, but we didnt sign any free agent forwards. I think Bennett needs at least a year in the AHL; he barely played last season, so how is he going to make the jump from decent college player to a full-time NHL player, and a top 6 NHL player? Its not going to happeen.

Tangradi couldnt crack our third line last year, but some of you think he is ready for top 6 duty? He had enough time keeping a roster spot on the team. Dustin Jeffrey? The guy had 1 nice stretch of games 2 years ago, and that was it. He has been invisible ever since. These guys have not proven that they belong on the top 6. I dont think Jeffrey will even be a starter this season, let alone a candidate to play with the big guns.

Im not bashing shero moderators, I am expressing why I am frustrated with him.

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07-30-2012, 12:06 PM
  #920
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does that matter at all? I'm not saying I disagree entirely, but do we really care how our top 6 guys would play without Sid or Geno?
You were the one pointing out Kunitz's stats. His stats are inflated. That's all.

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07-30-2012, 12:06 PM
  #921
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What assets are you referring to? We dont have a Ryan Whitney or Alex Goligoski on this team, you know, an NHL proven puck moving defenseman that Shero would trade. We have a bunch of prospects, possibilities. I constantly see 2 names come up in regards to Pens trades, Paul Martin and Tyler Kennedy. Do you really think that either of these guys is going to generate much interest from around the league? I dont.

My biggest problem with Shero was the fact that we dont have forwards on the verge of cracking the top 6, but we didnt sign any free agent forwards. I think Bennett needs at least a year in the AHL; he barely played last season, so how is he going to make the jump from decent college player to a full-time NHL player, and a top 6 NHL player? Its not going to happeen.

Tangradi couldnt crack our third line last year, but some of you think he is ready for top 6 duty? He had enough time keeping a roster spot on the team. Dustin Jeffrey? The guy had 1 nice stretch of games 2 years ago, and that was it. He has been invisible ever since. These guys have not proven that they belong on the top 6. I dont think Jeffrey will even be a starter this season, let alone a candidate to play with the big guns.

Im not bashing shero moderators, I am expressing why I am frustrated with him.
We'll agree to disagree on Tangradi. Jeffrey hasn't been "invisible" he's been injured. Not that I ever expect him to be a good top 6 option, I'm just saying.

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07-30-2012, 12:09 PM
  #922
Ogrezilla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Malkin View Post
You were the one pointing out Kunitz's stats. His stats are inflated. That's all.
again, so what? Not everyone's stats become inflated playing with our forwards. Look at guys like Satan, Feds and Poni. Their stats didn't inflate with Sid or Geno. You can't just bring in any 40 point guy and expect him to become a 60 point guy. If that's what is happening with Kunitz, great. When Kunitz is playing with our forwards, he is a very good top 6 forward. How he would play without them is completely irrelevant to us.

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Old
07-30-2012, 12:21 PM
  #923
BrokenStick
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Hasn't Kunitz been a top-line winger for two different cup-winning teams? To me, that's enough to qualify him as a top-line winger.

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Old
07-30-2012, 12:26 PM
  #924
Le Magnifique 66
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He did acquire Kunitz

He did acquire Hossa and tried to extend him long term

He did acquire Neal who before Sid's injury we were all 100% sure it was Sid's winger.

He did offer Parise a contract

I mean, come on, Shero has done things to make this team better and try to get those wingers for Sid and Geno. Don't make it seem like Ray has not done anything from day 1

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Old
07-30-2012, 12:29 PM
  #925
Crafton
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there's a reason Kunitz finds himself lined-up with the likes of Crosby, Malkin and Selänne and i doubt it's out of sheer dumb luck.

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