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Your Opinion of Ray Shero

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Old
07-30-2012, 05:49 PM
  #951
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
With this teams luck they better carry eight.
Remains to be seen whether Shero is going to move 2 of Strait, Bortuzzo, Lovejoy. I think it's likely but who knows.

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07-31-2012, 02:25 AM
  #952
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I find that most 7 million dollar players who get more playoff icetime than Jason Chimera and Joel Ward usually outscore them.
Come on CW (yes, I still call you that), you know as well as I do that scoring slumps happen to everybody. The percentages dictate that sometimes they occur in May instead of February where all of a sudden it becomes a story. Just because the media sensationalizes it doesn't mean we have to blink and nod our head like mindless sheep.

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Fleury's recent playoff track record has been garbage too. He deserves all the criticism he's received for faltering when it matters over the last 3 years. Thankfully Shero's bolstered the goalie situation in case it happens again.
My point was that fans prematurely propped up Fleury on the basis of him being clutch following our Cup win. Despite public perception, the regular season is a better indicator of talent level and a more accurate predictor of future results than the playoffs are. Overvaluing playoff results leads teams to overpay for players who hit the hockey equivelant of the pick 6. Players and even teams ride unsustainable percentages for entire seasons. You don't think it happens all the time in the playoffs?

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Semin's had success in the playoffs. But it's been all too rare for the price tag he commanded.
If his shooting percentage evened out to anywhere near his career norms, his playoff production would be pretty much on par with his regular season numbers.

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07-31-2012, 02:57 AM
  #953
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There should be a thread like this for Bylsma

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07-31-2012, 04:42 AM
  #954
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Originally Posted by Nathaniel Teager View Post
There should be a thread like this for Bylsma
There used to be one. I think the outcome was pretty much that everyone like him but he had some flaws and was still learning as a coach.

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07-31-2012, 07:57 AM
  #955
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Girardi/Staal/McDonagh are all better defensively than anyone on our team not named Letang. Orpik has to seriously rebound to be considered a top pairing D-man again.
Letang has some serious gaffs in the playoffs also.

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07-31-2012, 08:23 AM
  #956
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I agree, no one is saying that any of the real contenders did that much to improve their teams so far this offseason except the Rangers. But those teams werent embarrassed either . Not only that, the Pens team is worse as of today than it was last spring. Boston didnt lose a Jordan Staal and a top 4 dmen, even a struggling one at that.

I dont think many of us would be quite as frustrated with this offseason had we not lost Staal and Michalek for minimal return. The Staal trade was decent, I am hoping Sutter can make a big difference. But none of the other players in these deals will play for the Pens for a long time. So while the other contenders didnt necessarily improve, they sure didnt take big steps backwards like the Pens...
No, but they did lose their Vezina and Conn Smythe winner in Thomas. Every top team in the East has lost players, we will see how it all plays out but I don't think we are weaker then those teams

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07-31-2012, 12:51 PM
  #957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
Come on CW (yes, I still call you that), you know as well as I do that scoring slumps happen to everybody. The percentages dictate that sometimes they occur in May instead of February where all of a sudden it becomes a story. Just because the media sensationalizes it doesn't mean we have to blink and nod our head like mindless sheep.
We still cool de la?

If Semin's production slip were a blip on the radar, it could be dismissed. It's not though. The fact is that on top of his regular season pace steadily decreasing over the past 4 years, he's only had one playoff series out of his last six that could even be remotely described as "star-calibre". Getting a lot of shots doesn't qualify in my books.

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My point was that fans prematurely propped up Fleury on the basis of him being clutch following our Cup win. Despite public perception, the regular season is a better indicator of talent level and a more accurate predictor of future results than the playoffs are. Overvaluing playoff results leads teams to overpay for players who hit the hockey equivelant of the pick 6. Players and even teams ride unsustainable percentages for entire seasons. You don't think it happens all the time in the playoffs?
I think Semin's disappointed in the playoffs enough lately to suggest it's more than an aberration.

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If his shooting percentage evened out to anywhere near his career norms, his playoff production would be pretty much on par with his regular season numbers.
That's anything but guaranteed, considering how often its happened over his last 6 playoff series.

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Old
08-01-2012, 01:34 PM
  #958
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
We still cool de la?
Of course we cool de la!

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If Semin's production slip were a blip on the radar, it could be dismissed. It's not though. The fact is that on top of his regular season pace steadily decreasing over the past 4 years, he's only had one playoff series out of his last six that could even be remotely described as "star-calibre". Getting a lot of shots doesn't qualify in my books.
Scoring league wide has regressed. Further, he's been at a PPG or better in two playoff appearances, either of which could be remotely described as all star caliber.

A player getting a lot of shots and not scoring at close to their regular season rate is almost always indicative of a player that's due for an upswing. If Semin's shot production plummeted I could see the argument that teams have designed defenses to stop him and that he hasn't adjusted. But when he's getting more shots per game in the playoffs than the regular season, I have a hard time applying that label.

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I think Semin's disappointed in the playoffs enough lately to suggest it's more than an aberration.

That's anything but guaranteed, considering how often its happened over his last 6 playoff series.
The bottom line for me is that we're dealing with a relatively insignificant sample size where the player in question's underlying numbers show a guy who's had rotten shooting luck over that span rather than an inability to compete.

Semin also isn't going to hurt you on the ice when he's not scoring (though he may hurt you in the penalty box). He's consistently been a heavy plus player and despite underwhelming playoff production is only a minus one. Briere is cited as one of the best playoff performers post lockout and he's a -4 over that span. Scoring isn't everything, and Semin is criminally underrated defensively.

You have your concerns and I'm not going to say they're unfounded, but I don't think they should deter us from signing him to a low risk contract, one year contract considering our available options.

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08-01-2012, 01:54 PM
  #959
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We'll see how Semin does in Carolina. If he's still underachieving in a new venue with 3 guys who can all do a great job at C (Staals, Skinner), there is a problem and the problem is him / his work ethic. That will make 3 coaches including Hunter, where they couldn't get him to achieve at a level where he should be, playing with good or great C. If he rips it up then maybe we can attribute much of his problems to a crappy environment in Washington.

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Old
08-01-2012, 02:23 PM
  #960
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I can't believe Ray Shero refusing to pay $7 million per for Semin is really an issue here.

I give up. Khrushchev shoulda hit that button.

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08-01-2012, 02:55 PM
  #961
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Originally Posted by HandshakeLine View Post
I can't believe Ray Shero refusing to pay $7 million per for Semin is really an issue here.

I give up. Khrushchev shoulda hit that button.

I certainly don't have a problem with it. Never really felt right about offering that guy a deal. Had it been for less money and short term I suppose I could've lived with it as an experiment but I didn't lose any sleep, let's put it that way. Won't lose any over Doan or Kostitsyn either.

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08-01-2012, 03:05 PM
  #962
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Wasn't it only one year?

I've always been pretty iffy, at best, about Semin (har har), too. But even at 7 million... a one year deal for the kind of talent Semin does posses combined with the type of leadership this team already has is enticing. And in my opinion, relatively risk-free.

One way or the other, we still have a ways to go until things actually start to matter.

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08-01-2012, 03:12 PM
  #963
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Yep. Only 1 year.

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08-01-2012, 03:15 PM
  #964
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
Wasn't it only one year?

I've always been pretty iffy, at best, about Semin (har har), too. But even at 7 million... a one year deal for the kind of talent Semin does posses combined with the type of leadership this team already has is enticing. And in my opinion, relatively risk-free.

One way or the other, we still have a ways to go until things actually start to matter.
Well, it's certainly not risk free. $7 million would eat up almost all of our available cap space, severely hampering our ability to change mid-season if things aren't working out.

I was a fan of signing Semin, but not at $7 million, even for one year. There's just too many scenarios where we'll need to explore other options (e.g. the cap contracting and having better options available, injuries to the blueline or goalie necessitating a trade, better long-term solutions becoming available due to negotiations breaking down,, etc...) where that $7 million is just as much of a straight jacket as not.

This is not to say I advocate making risk-free moves-- hardly. I just think that, for the amount of money Semin signed for, we'd be taking on more risk than reward.

I mean, look at the Subban situation-- if we signed Semin, we'd be unable to (hypothetically) offer-sheet him, or sign him if the Habs can't come to terms and want to trade. I'd much rather have Subban on the Pens than Semin, no question.

So, you don't even have to look very far or very hypothetically to find situations where Semin's contract would hamper us in very concrete terms.

edit: Also, given the amount of other high-profile teams with large amounts of cap space, I think it's not unlikely that some teams are preparing for the worst in that regard.

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08-01-2012, 03:28 PM
  #965
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If you want a potential 40 goal scorer for just one year... then 7 million is simply what you pay. If the Penguins or any other team interested were willing to make more of a commitment, then that number likely comes down a bit. Personally, despite all of the things said and speculated about Semin, I think it speaks well to his character that he's willing to not simply wing it back over to Russia for what would certainly be more money. He wants to play in the NHL.

I don't foresee a cap reduction... at least right away. Both parties know at least a few team would be absolutely devastated. It would be madness. I suppose the point about there possibly being other options out there you'd miss out on is a fair one... but I'll have to leave that to those better versed than me. As I do not see any of those potential options out there anywhere, myself. Respectfully, I simply don't see the potential for unmanageable risk. It would still leave the Penguins somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 million under the cap. I don't know what that is pro-rated. But it's pretty beefy.

I don't really want much to do with Subban, personally. Hell of a talent. Not really a need. Unlike many, I'm fairly content with what is going on with the team's blueline, particularly moving forward. And if you think Shero is the type to tender an offer sheet... well... he won't. Not his style.

Although, obviously, it isn't his style to take a chance on a player like Semin, either. I don't begrudge him for it. It is what it is. I guess it just comes down to personal preference regarding team needs. I feel like one bad injury to even someone like Dupuis could be pretty bad... and he's... well... Dupuis. I don't like this team's scoring depth at all after the departure of Staal. Even the loss of a relative shlub like Sullivan sort of stings, now.

But, again... long time to go until things start to matter.

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08-01-2012, 04:41 PM
  #966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
If you want a potential 40 goal scorer for just one year... then 7 million is simply what you pay. If the Penguins or any other team interested were willing to make more of a commitment, then that number likely comes down a bit. Personally, despite all of the things said and speculated about Semin, I think it speaks well to his character that he's willing to not simply wing it back over to Russia for what would certainly be more money. He wants to play in the NHL.

I don't foresee a cap reduction... at least right away. Both parties know at least a few team would be absolutely devastated. It would be madness. I suppose the point about there possibly being other options out there you'd miss out on is a fair one... but I'll have to leave that to those better versed than me. As I do not see any of those potential options out there anywhere, myself. Respectfully, I simply don't see the potential for unmanageable risk. It would still leave the Penguins somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 million under the cap. I don't know what that is pro-rated. But it's pretty beefy.

I don't really want much to do with Subban, personally. Hell of a talent. Not really a need. Unlike many, I'm fairly content with what is going on with the team's blueline, particularly moving forward. And if you think Shero is the type to tender an offer sheet... well... he won't. Not his style.

Although, obviously, it isn't his style to take a chance on a player like Semin, either. I don't begrudge him for it. It is what it is. I guess it just comes down to personal preference regarding team needs. I feel like one bad injury to even someone like Dupuis could be pretty bad... and he's... well... Dupuis. Idon't like this team's scoring depth at all after the departure of Staal. Even the loss of a relative shlub like Sullivan sort of stings, now.

But, again... long time to go until things start to matter.
Yep - all great points, but at the end of the day it's Shero's preference to be ultra-lean at the wings. Always has and always will be.

At the same time, if an injury does happen then yeah - we could undergo a serious power outage. I don't know how anyone can feel confident going into the season with the lack of scoring depth that we have. I can't think of a contending team out there that has less skill and depth on the wings than we do.

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08-02-2012, 02:42 AM
  #967
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Well, it's certainly not risk free. $7 million would eat up almost all of our available cap space, severely hampering our ability to change mid-season if things aren't working out.

I was a fan of signing Semin, but not at $7 million, even for one year. There's just too many scenarios where we'll need to explore other options (e.g. the cap contracting and having better options available, injuries to the blueline or goalie necessitating a trade, better long-term solutions becoming available due to negotiations breaking down,, etc...) where that $7 million is just as much of a straight jacket as not.
I don't think the cap contracting for this upcoming season is even a possibility. Next season? Could definitely happen.

It seems like your argument is tailed more towards not spending to the cap than it is against Alex Semin. Also, how is this kind of investment analogous to a straight jacket? If those issues crop up and Semin isn't working out as hoped, he can be traded for cap space to fill those holes. There is no chance we'd be stuck with Semin if we didn't want him here any longer.

Quote:
This is not to say I advocate making risk-free moves-- hardly. I just think that, for the amount of money Semin signed for, we'd be taking on more risk than reward.
Again, I just don't see where the risk is.

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I mean, look at the Subban situation-- if we signed Semin, we'd be unable to (hypothetically) offer-sheet him, or sign him if the Habs can't come to terms and want to trade. I'd much rather have Subban on the Pens than Semin, no question.
Hypothetical offer sheet scenarios are a reach, and Shero doesn't strike me as the type of GM to hand one out. Also not sure if Subban is the defenseman I'm going to invest an offer sheet into considering some of the defenseman coming up through our system.

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08-02-2012, 08:27 AM
  #968
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
I don't think the cap contracting for this upcoming season is even a possibility. Next season? Could definitely happen.

It seems like your argument is tailed more towards not spending to the cap than it is against Alex Semin. Also, how is this kind of investment analogous to a straight jacket? If those issues crop up and Semin isn't working out as hoped, he can be traded for cap space to fill those holes. There is no chance we'd be stuck with Semin if we didn't want him here any longer.



Again, I just don't see where the risk is.



Hypothetical offer sheet scenarios are a reach, and Shero doesn't strike me as the type of GM to hand one out. Also not sure if Subban is the defenseman I'm going to invest an offer sheet into considering some of the defenseman coming up through our system.
Any hypothetical acquisition could be hindered by paying someone 7M depending what happens to the cap. Work out a deal for Bobby Ryan? Oh, only works if they'll take Paul Martin. Iginla? Same thing.

Not saying these are likely scenarios but they are ways that 7M to Semin is a risk. I've said before I'd be happy to have him for 1 year at 7M, but I can see the reason Shero wouldn't want to give him that much.

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08-02-2012, 09:21 AM
  #969
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Rewatched game 4 against Philly late last night. I dont think I'm being a homer in saying Tangradi took a big step late in the season. Looked like one of the better forwards on the ice and earned some more shifts with the game easily won.

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08-02-2012, 09:22 AM
  #970
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Rewatched game 4 against Philly late last night. I dont think I'm being a homer in saying Tangradi took a big step late in the season. Looked like one of the better forwards on the ice and earned some more shifts with the game easily won.
did he score?

nuff said


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08-02-2012, 09:39 AM
  #971
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Rewatched game 4 against Philly late last night. I dont think I'm being a homer in saying Tangradi took a big step late in the season. Looked like one of the better forwards on the ice and earned some more shifts with the game easily won.

Thanks alot, now i watched the entire series recaps and got pissed off






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08-02-2012, 09:40 AM
  #972
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Rewatched game 4 against Philly late last night. I dont think I'm being a homer in saying Tangradi took a big step late in the season. Looked like one of the better forwards on the ice and earned some more shifts with the game easily won.
Thats unpossible, Tangradi is a bad skater with bad hockey sense who is bad.

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08-02-2012, 09:46 AM
  #973
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Thats unpossible, Tangradi is a bad skater with bad hockey sense who is bad.
skill is directly proportional to the number of goals scored while playing 6 minutes a night on the fourth line with Craig Adams.

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08-02-2012, 09:48 AM
  #974
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did he score?

nuff said

Dupuis had 8 goals during Sid's superhuman 41 games two seasons ago. And Tangradi brings a better offensive skillset and a huge frame. Having both Sid/Geno with someone who can properly work a give and go would be a godsend. Lot harder to shut them down.

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08-02-2012, 09:49 AM
  #975
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I really hope the coaching staff does right by Tango this year. I'm not asking them to hand him anything but he was noticeably improved in the second half of the season and, in my opinion, one of their best playoff performers. For whatever that's worth... especially considering he was yanked back out of the lineup despite proving more than capable.

I've always been a little iffy about his potential as a top six guy. But he actually has to get a chance at some point to prove if can or can't be that guy. To this point, he hasn't gotten anything close to that chance. There is a shift chart someone posted around here that was a real eye-opener, if you are of the opinion that he's simply been handed quality ice time and not done anything with it.

Worst comes to worst... I truly believe he can be a more than capable third liner with some snarl, size and offensive acumen. Still an incredibly valuable asset for any team.

This thread is really sort of a grab bag of topics, huh?

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