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07-13-2012, 07:00 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Crozbar View Post
This is true, however... Tampa sorta scooped him. iirc Pens offered 3.7 or something?
Yeah now that I'm thinking back on it. I was actually happy we got something for his rights cause I considered him as good as gone at the time. Only thing depressing to me at the time was. As much as I knew it was over for him I was hoping gary roberts could play here 4ever. Lol. Joking aside I loved the guy. Even the sucker punch to franzen made me happy. I was so damn frustrated I wanted to do the same myself.

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07-13-2012, 07:01 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
true, but it seems like poor asset management when you have a well-regarded d-men signed to a reasonable deal, and you trade him for basically nothing.

particularly when his departure leaves an already weak area even weaker.
Ottawa's GM is on the record saying that Z was offered to him for trade, but to make it happen the Pens would have to take some salary back and Shero didn't want to do that. Z was a FA signing, so no assets were lost on the Pens part in the trade other than Z himself. And there were rumors he wasn't happy with his role here. Educated guess is that he was freeing up cap space to take a run at Parise while moving a player who wanted to be moved.

As for leaving our defense weaker ... well, we really don't know, do we? The kids did pretty well when called up this year. It's not unreasonable to expect that given an entire season on the big club they will perform even better.

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07-13-2012, 07:05 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by DegenX View Post
Ottawa's GM is on the record saying that Z was offered to him for trade, but to make it happen the Pens would have to take some salary back and Shero didn't want to do that. Z was a FA signing, so no assets were lost on the Pens part in the trade other than Z himself. And there were rumors he wasn't happy with his role here. Educated guess is that he was freeing up cap space to take a run at Parise while moving a player who wanted to be moved.

As for leaving our defense weaker ... well, we really don't know, do we? The kids did pretty well when called up this year. It's not unreasonable to expect that given an entire season on the big club they will perform even better.
agreed with all of this, but especially the bold. One of Martin or Michalek was being traded to open up a roster spot and to save cap. If there was even any possibility that Michalek was unhappy here, he would be the obvious choice.

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07-13-2012, 07:13 PM
  #79
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He can't make Hossa & Parise sign. He's doing the best he can but he can't change free will. I just hope Pouliot turns out because Forsberg looks like a great player in a position we need.

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07-13-2012, 07:19 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by 71 View Post
That Goligoski guy turned out to be a pretty good forward.
People who expect Shero to turn every Dman into a 40 goal scorer are in for a rude awakening. That was the perfect situation and the perfect players at the perfect time. Not to mention Gogo was played a number of seasons in the NHL prior to the trade. No one is giving up a 30+ goal scorer for a prospect.

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Old
07-13-2012, 07:28 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DegenX View Post
Ottawa's GM is on the record saying that Z was offered to him for trade, but to make it happen the Pens would have to take some salary back and Shero didn't want to do that. Z was a FA signing, so no assets were lost on the Pens part in the trade other than Z himself. And there were rumors he wasn't happy with his role here. Educated guess is that he was freeing up cap space to take a run at Parise while moving a player who wanted to be moved.

As for leaving our defense weaker ... well, we really don't know, do we? The kids did pretty well when called up this year. It's not unreasonable to expect that given an entire season on the big club they will perform even better.
sure they didnt have a "net loss" from signing michalek and then trading him for scraps in the grand scheme of things, but they still had a fairly valuable asset that they lost. whether they picked a guy off waivers or signed him off the market, you'd like to maximize your value when trading him.

i understand he was making cap room, but it sounds like the pens were never particularly close to signing parise/suter, so it seems a bit presumptive to dump michalek before free agency even began. shero knew that almost every team would want parise/suter, why did he think he had the inside track?

and yes, it does remain to be seen if the d is weaker. but right now the blueline looks mediocre.

im not really bashing shero, but we just watched the penguins deliver one of the all-time worst defensive performances in the flyers series. they then dump arguably their best defensive d-men, and best PKer? seems a bit illogical.

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Old
07-13-2012, 07:29 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
Why would a GM give us a forward with greater upside than Staal for Staal? makes no sense.
He's talking about Filip Forsberg who has an upside of ~75+ points (per Dobber) who Shero passed over for another Dman.

Here's what Pit's D prospects look like:
Joe Morrow
Simon Despres
Brian Dumoulin
Scott Harrington
Robert Bortuzzo
Brian Strait
Derrick Pouliot
Olli Maatta

Here's what Pit's O Prospects look like:
Beau Bennett
Eric Tangradi
Tom Kühnhackl

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Old
07-13-2012, 07:31 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
sure they didnt have a "net loss" from signing michalek and then trading him for scraps in the grand scheme of things, but they still had a fairly valuable asset that they lost. whether they picked a guy off waivers or signed him off the market, you'd like to maximize your value when trading him.

i understand he was making cap room, but it sounds like the pens were never particularly close to signing parise/suter, so it seems a bit presumptive to dump michalek before free agency even began. shero knew that almost every team would want parise/suter, why did he think he had the inside track?

and yes, it does remain to be seen if the d is weaker. but right now the blueline looks mediocre.

im not really bashing shero, but we just watched the penguins deliver one of the all-time worst defensive performances in the flyers series. they then dump arguably their best defensive d-men, and best PKer? seems a bit illogical.
one of Martin and Michalek was being moved to make room for Despres/Strait/Bortuzzo to battle for a spot. I suspect there was at least some truth to the rumor that Michalek wasn't thrilled to be here making it an easy decision. Now trading him for cap space instead of a player is obviously questionable. But he clearly wanted to make space to go for Parise.

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Old
07-13-2012, 07:34 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by cassius View Post
Doesn't matter... GM's get paid to see the big picture and clearly going all in on Hossa and neglecting Malone wasn't the best move. Sure, $4.5M was a lot at the time... but not so much these days considering the Leino-type of contracts out there. Hell, Staal is making $6M/year for 10 years.

You can't argue that Malone wouldn't fill a huge hole on this roster. Simply put, since he left we haven't had a big body that wasn't afraid to play in front of the net and score the dirty goals. He also opened up a ton of space for his linemates.
cassius, it seems you want to have your cake and eat it too.

You criticize Shero for going all in on Hossa - clearly the skilled winger for Crosby that everyone wanted - and putting Malone on hold until that was resolved, but in an earlier post you wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cassius View Post
I'm not a big fan of his fixation on grinders either - there comes a point when it becomes redundant to have so many bottom sixers. It seems like Shero is extremely hesitant to take a shot on ANYONE with skill. A few offseasons ago I was clamoring for him to make a move on Teddy Purcell and nothing ever materialized. You look at him today and he's a solid top 6 guy for Tampa and they gave up absolutely nothing to acquire him.
Shero went after the high skill there, and the player opted for another team. GMs are paid to see the big picture, but they don't have crystal balls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
People who expect Shero to turn every Dman into a 40 goal scorer are in for a rude awakening. That was the perfect situation and the perfect players at the perfect time. Not to mention Gogo was played a number of seasons in the NHL prior to the trade. No one is giving up a 30+ goal scorer for a prospect.
Twice Shero has dealt offensive defensemen for scoring wingers who have worked out well for us. That doesn't mean every trade will be analogous, but it does mean that offensive defensemen carry a ton of value in today's NHL. Considering we have PMD prospects coming out the yin yang again, there's a good chance we can continue to deal them to fill holes in the organization.

Maybe next time it'll be for a comparably well-regarded wing prospect, or a Kulemin type coming off a real down year. There are no shortage of options.

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Old
07-13-2012, 07:36 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
one of Martin and Michalek was being moved to make room for Despres/Strait/Bortuzzo to battle for a spot. I suspect there was at least some truth to the rumor that Michalek wasn't thrilled to be here making it an easy decision. Now trading him for cap space instead of a player is obviously questionable. But he clearly wanted to make space to go for Parise.
i understand, but why not wait until hearing back from parise's camp, or even after signing parise before trading michalek?

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Old
07-13-2012, 07:37 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
i understand, but why not wait until hearing back from parise's camp, or even after signing parise before trading michalek?
I'm not saying it was a good deal by any means. Just giving a bit of possible reasoning for it.

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Old
07-13-2012, 07:45 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
He's talking about Filip Forsberg who has an upside of ~75+ points (per Dobber) who Shero passed over for another Dman.

Here's what Pit's D prospects look like:
Joe Morrow
Simon Despres
Brian Dumoulin
Scott Harrington
Robert Bortuzzo
Brian Strait
Derrick Pouliot
Olli Maatta

Here's what Pit's O Prospects look like:
Beau Bennett
Eric Tangradi
Tom Kühnhackl
75+ upside for Forsberg? sounds highly optimistic. If Pens thought Pouliot was BPA then I don't see a problem with picking him. Offensive dmen are the most valuable commodity in the NHL (apart from true #1 centres), if Pouliot has upside of top 4 dmen while being a great PPQB then that's a pretty good pick IMO.

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Old
07-13-2012, 07:49 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
sure they didnt have a "net loss" from signing michalek and then trading him for scraps in the grand scheme of things, but they still had a fairly valuable asset that they lost. whether they picked a guy off waivers or signed him off the market, you'd like to maximize your value when trading him.

i understand he was making cap room, but it sounds like the pens were never particularly close to signing parise/suter, so it seems a bit presumptive to dump michalek before free agency even began. shero knew that almost every team would want parise/suter, why did he think he had the inside track?

and yes, it does remain to be seen if the d is weaker. but right now the blueline looks mediocre.

im not really bashing shero, but we just watched the penguins deliver one of the all-time worst defensive performances in the flyers series. they then dump arguably their best defensive d-men, and best PKer? seems a bit illogical.
Possibly the deal was a limited time offer? Honestly, I have no idea ... and I see your point that there's a lot about the trade that doesn't make sense. But, then again, there's probably a lot of information that we don't have, either, that might put it into context.

As for why Z ... like I mentioned before, there were rumors he wasn't happy. If you read any of the interviews after the trade from the Yotes or Z himself, there was a lot of talk about being a better fit for his style of play that seemed to back up the rumors ... that he really wasn't happy in the role he was being asked to fill. And if that's true, it doesn't matter what a player's skill set is, if he's not happy or uncomfortable in his role it will show on the ice, and maybe the locker room ... so moving that player makes more sense than keeping him.

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07-13-2012, 07:50 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
i understand, but why not wait until hearing back from parise's camp, or even after signing parise before trading michalek?
We're not privy to everything Shero is.

Maybe Michalek was uncomfortable with the Pens' system and felt he would do better in a more conventional set-up, so Shero was going to move him regardless of what happened in free agency.

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07-13-2012, 08:04 PM
  #90
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I think Despres is going to quiet a lot of people questioning the staff's drafting abilities.

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07-13-2012, 08:09 PM
  #91
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Elmer's Day is Near.

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Old
07-13-2012, 08:16 PM
  #92
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People saying we should have signed malone? Back then 4.5 was a monster deal. Now not so much.

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07-13-2012, 08:16 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
We're not privy to everything Shero is.

Maybe Michalek was uncomfortable with the Pens' system and felt he would do better in a more conventional set-up, so Shero was going to move him regardless of what happened in free agency.
After the events of the last few weeks, I would hope Shero was going to move Michalek regardless and that he felt it was best to move him at the draft to go all in on Parise/Suter.

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Old
07-13-2012, 08:22 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by TakeYOrpik View Post
I think Despres is going to quiet a lot of people questioning the staff's drafting abilities.
Honestly, I don't think Pens fans should be questioning them.

I questioned the Morrow pick, I wanted the Pens to take Saad, but I like the Morrow pick. And I think Shero and his staff know what they're doing, keeping their eye on Pouliot all year, liking the way he plays and showing enough confidence in him to take him with the 8th overall pick?

Ray Shero knows more about these guys than any of us, if he was considered the best player available to the Penguins at #8 then that's that. There is a reason these guys are paid to do this, they know their stuff.

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Old
07-13-2012, 08:22 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by czwalga View Post
People saying we should have signed malone? Back then 4.5 was a monster deal. Now not so much.
Pittsburgh has enough illegitimate children running around. Signing Malone will cause a birthing crisis in a couple years. Hospitals will be understaffed and ill equipped.

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Old
07-13-2012, 08:37 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
He's talking about Filip Forsberg who has an upside of ~75+ points (per Dobber) who Shero passed over for another Dman.

Here's what Pit's D prospects look like:
Joe Morrow
Simon Despres
Brian Dumoulin
Scott Harrington
Robert Bortuzzo
Brian Strait
Derrick Pouliot
Olli Maatta

Here's what Pit's O Prospects look like:
Beau Bennett
Eric Tangradi
Tom Kühnhackl
I really wish Pit could flip one of our D prospects for a guy like Etem, Palmieri, etc. Basically, to get another top-6 wing prospect that can balance out our risk of Bennett being our only top-6 candidate.

I.E. the chances of one of those two (the added prospect) making the Pro's would be pretty high

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Old
07-13-2012, 08:43 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by TakeYOrpik View Post
I think Despres is going to quiet a lot of people questioning the staff's drafting abilities.
Why? I don't think anyone is questioning picking him. They got great value at a very low pick. Morrow as well. If Pouliot doesn't turn out better than Forsberg it was a bad move. One that we gave up Staal for. Let's hope they see something in Pouliot & it's just no the lack of scouting in non-North American markets.

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07-13-2012, 08:44 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
He's talking about Filip Forsberg who has an upside of ~75+ points (per Dobber) who Shero passed over for another Dman.

Here's what Pit's D prospects look like:
Joe Morrow
Simon Despres
Brian Dumoulin
Scott Harrington
Robert Bortuzzo
Brian Strait
Derrick Pouliot
Olli Maatta

Here's what Pit's O Prospects look like:
Beau Bennett
Eric Tangradi
Tom Kühnhackl
Matia Marcantuoni?
Ben Hanowski?
Kenny Agostino?

Don't those guys have top 6 upside?

Zlobin, Blueger, Sundqvist?

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Old
07-13-2012, 08:45 PM
  #99
eXile59
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Originally Posted by sexyllama View Post
I really wish Pit could flip one of our D prospects for a guy like Etem, Palmieri, etc. Basically, to get another top-6 wing prospect that can balance out our risk of Bennett being our only top-6 candidate.

I.E. the chances of one of those two (the added prospect) making the Pro's would be pretty high
Not Etem. He reminds me of Rico Fata. Very little hockey sense.

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07-13-2012, 08:47 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Matia Marcantuoni?
Ben Hanowski?
Kenny Agostino?

Don't those guys have top 6 upside?

Zlobin, Blueger, Sundqvist?
It's going to be any where from 2-5 years for those guys.

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