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The Nash Thread V (All things Nash here: DREGER: Nash to NYR)

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Old
07-20-2012, 09:07 AM
  #276
EDM
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Howson's passive ineptitude continues to astound me. If Nash were foolish enough to change his mind and stay based upon some plan that Howson outlines for him, I would lose all respect for Nash's common sense.

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07-20-2012, 09:39 AM
  #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDM View Post
Howson's passive ineptitude continues to astound me. If Nash were foolish enough to change his mind and stay based upon some plan that Howson outlines for him, I would lose all respect for Nash's common sense.
I would truly question if Nash is simply content to go down as this franchise career leader in most offensive categories vs. having a real chance at hoisting a Stanley Cup.

If he stays, we are likely done with movement this offseason. How much better is this team?

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07-20-2012, 09:46 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
I would truly question if Nash is simply content to go down as this franchise career leader in most offensive categories vs. having a real chance at hoisting a Stanley Cup.

If he stays, we are likely done with movement this offseason. How much better is this team?
Offense looks about the same, considering Carter never amounted to anything and Foligno is a nice 2nd/3rd line addition. A little maturation could amount to something for RyJo and Atkinson, that is yet to be seen.

Defense is substantially better.

Goaltending is the wild card. Between the blueline upgrades and the addition of a Bobrovsky, it could be a big improvement over last season...or it could be much the same. The biggest failure of the offseason imo is that lack of creativity in landing either a solid #1 or a pair of strong potential #1's (I consider Bob one of these). I don't see anything positive about Mason being part of any tandem.

My guess is this roster finishes on or just below the bubble line..........6th to 11th in the West imo...it all depends on the net minding.

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07-20-2012, 10:33 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Sore Loser View Post
So, by your logic, nobody from the SEL, nor any European drafted 6th overall will ever be successful?

It's not so much that you're against any trade for Mike Zibanejad, it's simply the fact that your method of reason is so full of holes that you look like Steve Mason on a bad night. You're doing nothing but putting down the kid and everything he's ever had anything to do with; which honestly is making you look bad.

Yes, Fabian Brunnstrom did come from the SEL, but so did Mats Sundin, who, by the way, scored 18 points as an 18 year old in the SEL ... in 34 games. Yup, real bum, terrible player for only averaging .5 points per game in a lower class league. He'll never amount to anything!

Maybe if you weren't so bullheaded on your stance against everything, people might listen to your actual reason for coming up with those stances. We know you don't like Mika Zibanejad, we get it. No reason to completely blast the kid and use every possible scenario you can to prove everyone else wrong ... when all they're doing is trying to open your eyes and show you that the kid is no washed up never has been.
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Don't forget about these guys:
Loui Eriksson with 13 points in 46 games in his draft year, then 14 points in 39 games the next year.

Anze Kopitar with 0 points in 5 games in his draft year, then 20 in 47 games the next year.

Tobias Enstrom had 6 points in 42 games in his draft year, and 5 in 33 games the next year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
Johan Franzen made it to the SEL when he was 21 and was able to score just 8 points in 36 games.
21 years old Alfredsson was able to score just 6 points in 21 SEL games.
19 years old Loui Eriksson had frikin 14 points in 39 SEL games.

What a bums from the bush league.
Some of you still don't get it.

No, by my logic, every Euro drafted at 6th isn't cursed...but they also aren't God's gift to hockey either. As I've discussed over and over when talking about the draft, the top 1-2 (and sometimes 3) picks are where the players with the best chance for success are. Face facts, since Ovechkin and Malkin were taken 1-2 in 2004 no European player has been taken directly out of a European league in the top 3 picks in the draft.

Why? The European system for player development is flawed. By having underagers on rosters of the "Elite" teams playing minimal minutes you do not benefit those kids. You don't benefit their development and you don't help those who are evaluating them compare apples to apples (which is already difficult enough with the difference in the size of the ice surface which completely changes the game).

Anecdotal evidence is next to useless. Niklas Sundstrom had 18 points in 40 games in his draft year and went on to be less than a .50/game player for his career. What exactly does that prove?

What is striking to me is how quickly some of you lose perspective. A month ago there was hand wringing about taking Galchenyuk at #2 because of his injury history and Forsberg because of the difficulty in truly evaluating him based on his age and performance at this point in his career. Now we want to trade our biggest asset in part to acquire a guy who has a worse injury history and has the same issues as Forsberg as far as really determining his ceiling?

Put it this way, if Nick Foligno was on Anaheim's roster, on draft night, would you have sent Nash to Anaheim for a package that included Foligno and the #6 overall pick in the 2012 draft? If not, why would you do the same thing but instead take someone else's pick who has suffered 2 concussions in the last 12 months?

Howson may be selling Nash too high, but some of you are selling him too low.

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Old
07-20-2012, 10:45 AM
  #280
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Hedman was taken 2nd overall in 09.... but I mostly agree with your points Capn.

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07-20-2012, 10:48 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Nordique View Post
Offense looks about the same, considering Carter never amounted to anything and Foligno is a nice 2nd/3rd line addition. A little maturation could amount to something for RyJo and Atkinson, that is yet to be seen.

Defense is substantially better.

Goaltending is the wild card. Between the blueline upgrades and the addition of a Bobrovsky, it could be a big improvement over last season...or it could be much the same. The biggest failure of the offseason imo is that lack of creativity in landing either a solid #1 or a pair of strong potential #1's (I consider Bob one of these). I don't see anything positive about Mason being part of any tandem.

My guess is this roster finishes on or just below the bubble line..........6th to 11th in the West imo...it all depends on the net minding.
6th in the West?

Let's really look at the Conference, shall we?

Central
Chicago Blackhawks
Columbus Blue Jackets
Detroit Red Wings
Nashville Predators
St. Louis Blues

Northwest
Calgary Flames
Colorado Avalanche
Edmonton Oilers
Minnesota Wild
Vancouver Canucks

Pacific
Anaheim Ducks
Dallas Stars
Los Angeles Kings
Phoenix Coyotes
San Jose Sharks

Now, let's look at the final standings which were:

Vancouver
St. Louis
Nashville
Detroit
Chicago
Phoenix
San Jose
LA
Calgary
Dallas
Colorado
Minnesota
Anaheim
Edmonton
Columbus

Note, I put Phoenix where they finished based on points.

To be 6th in the West, we'd have to jump NINE spots in the standings. In other words, nine teams would have to do worse than us.

As I look at the teams above us, Nashville is one team that seems likely to experience a downturn in performance. Detroit is another, but I'm not convinced it will be enough to push them out of the playoffs. Phoenix is a big question mark--until the Doan situation resolves itself there is too much uncertainty.

Edmonton and Minnesota are improved and moreso than we did, so I view it as unlikely we pass either of those teams though Edmonton still is young so there is always a possibility they underperform...of course, we have the same issue.

I see Colorado, Anaheim and Dallas as question marks, though I tend to think Dallas and Colorado will be competitive. Anaheim, on the other hand, could be about to take a turn for the worse as Murray's off-season moves were non-sensical though a potential Ryan trade could make a big difference when all is said and done.

This team will be lucky to finish 10th in my view. While teams like Vancouver, San Jose and Detroit continue to age, they likely will be playoff teams again this year. There's too much ground to make up and not enough was done.

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Old
07-20-2012, 11:26 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
6th in the West?

Now, let's look at the final standings which were:

Vancouver
St. Louis
Nashville
Detroit
Chicago
Phoenix
San Jose
LA
Calgary
Dallas
Colorado
Minnesota
Anaheim
Edmonton
Columbus

Note, I put Phoenix where they finished based on points.

To be 6th in the West, we'd have to jump NINE spots in the standings. In other words, nine teams would have to do worse than us.

As I look at the teams above us, Nashville is one team that seems likely to experience a downturn in performance. Detroit is another, but I'm not convinced it will be enough to push them out of the playoffs. Phoenix is a big question mark--until the Doan situation resolves itself there is too much uncertainty.

Edmonton and Minnesota are improved and moreso than we did, so I view it as unlikely we pass either of those teams though Edmonton still is young so there is always a possibility they underperform...of course, we have the same issue.

I see Colorado, Anaheim and Dallas as question marks, though I tend to think Dallas and Colorado will be competitive. Anaheim, on the other hand, could be about to take a turn for the worse as Murray's off-season moves were non-sensical though a potential Ryan trade could make a big difference when all is said and done.

This team will be lucky to finish 10th in my view. While teams like Vancouver, San Jose and Detroit continue to age, they likely will be playoff teams again this year. There's too much ground to make up and not enough was done.
I agree.

Phoenix still will have a good D & Mike Smith even if Doan bolts;

Dallas signed Whitney & Jagr to go along with Benn; I assume they get Morrow under contract.

Calgary is fading but they still have Kiprusoff and Iginla which should keep them ahead of us.

Edmonton, if they don't stay ahead of us, really deserve another 1 overall.

Nashville would have to lose 10 more games and the jackets win 10 for the jackets to move past them.

Ducks played better last part of season so maybe they will be tough to catch plus they have Getzlaff-Perry-Ryan

I think even 10th is way too optimistic. To guess, the highest I see is 12th and even that is probably to0 high. Most likely 14-16.

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Old
07-20-2012, 11:28 AM
  #283
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I've said this before in previous threads...

It isn't the individual pieces, it is how they fit together. Does the current combo of pieces (along with the coaching staff) have the ability to get the most out of each piece while also improving the team as a whole?

The defense will be much better able to move the puck than in previous seasons. I wouldn't be surprised if a huge number of scoring chances and goals come from the back end this coming season, more than any other season before. This should also help the forwards have more room in the offensive zone and increase the ability to attack the zone with speed.

Are we lacking firepower up front? Some, yes. But how are the guys going to be used?

Will Richards instill a system that works? We'll have to wait and see. Is the team better than last November - I think so. Are they better than they were in April, not significantly, no.

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Old
07-20-2012, 12:23 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by cbjgirl View Post
I've said this before in previous threads...

It isn't the individual pieces, it is how they fit together. Does the current combo of pieces (along with the coaching staff) have the ability to get the most out of each piece while also improving the team as a whole?

The defense will be much better able to move the puck than in previous seasons. I wouldn't be surprised if a huge number of scoring chances and goals come from the back end this coming season, more than any other season before. This should also help the forwards have more room in the offensive zone and increase the ability to attack the zone with speed.

Are we lacking firepower up front? Some, yes. But how are the guys going to be used?

Will Richards instill a system that works? We'll have to wait and see. Is the team better than last November - I think so. Are they better than they were in April, not significantly, no.
I would say we are better than in April. We have added several pieces who look like they will fit in this locker room and only have lost a bottom pairing Dman, an oft injured backup goaltender, and almost seven million dollars worth of salary to players that combined to a grand total of nine games last season.

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Old
07-20-2012, 02:41 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
6th in the West?

Let's really look at the Conference, shall we?

Central
Chicago Blackhawks
Columbus Blue Jackets
Detroit Red Wings
Nashville Predators
St. Louis Blues

Northwest
Calgary Flames
Colorado Avalanche
Edmonton Oilers
Minnesota Wild
Vancouver Canucks

Pacific
Anaheim Ducks
Dallas Stars
Los Angeles Kings
Phoenix Coyotes
San Jose Sharks

Now, let's look at the final standings which were:

Vancouver
St. Louis
Nashville
Detroit
Chicago
Phoenix
San Jose
LA
Calgary
Dallas
Colorado
Minnesota
Anaheim
Edmonton
Columbus
You have to take into account that this team suffered about every bad break imaginable between injuries and suspensions.

We finished last season 11-9, the last 20 games featured an intact defense, funny how important the blue line is. Thats 88-89 points projected over a season, right on the bottom side of the bubble. Calgary finished 9th in the West at 90 points for reference. I think this team is very capable of that, and more if as I said the goaltending can be better...Bobrovsky is a wild card, but I have a hunch he won't be as bad as Mason was last season.

Bottom line, projecting standings is more guess work than science. If you or I really knew what to expect from this coming season in the league, we'd be independently wealthy (maybe you are, but I know I'm not).

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Old
07-20-2012, 04:07 PM
  #286
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That's interesting. Everyone, which seven teams do we have a chance of leapfrogging this season to make the playoffs?

My suspects:
- Dallas
- Calgary
- Anaheim
- Edmonton
- Phoenix
- San Jose
- Nashville

DAMN! That's a tall order indeed - especially with a lack of firepower and questions in goal. I'll predict a 12th place finish.

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Old
07-20-2012, 04:11 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by leesmith View Post
That's interesting. Everyone, which seven teams do we have a chance of leapfrogging this season to make the playoffs?

My suspects:
- Dallas
- Calgary
- Anaheim
- Edmonton
- Phoenix
- San Jose
- Nashville

DAMN! That's a tall order indeed - especially with a lack of firepower and questions in goal. I'll predict a 12th place finish.
Do these lower expectations indicate less complaining this season?

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07-20-2012, 04:15 PM
  #288
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Do these lower expectations indicate less complaining this season?


(I suspect you'll be just as busy this season as last)

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Old
07-20-2012, 04:30 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by leesmith View Post
That's interesting. Everyone, which seven teams do we have a chance of leapfrogging this season to make the playoffs?

My suspects:
- Dallas
- Calgary
- Anaheim
- Edmonton
- Phoenix
- San Jose
- Nashville

DAMN! That's a tall order indeed - especially with a lack of firepower and questions in goal. I'll predict a 12th place finish.
I'm hopeless optimistic

Now let me finish my beer, its still half full.

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Old
07-20-2012, 05:01 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by leesmith View Post


(I suspect you'll be just as busy this season as last)


Post of the year!

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Old
07-20-2012, 05:05 PM
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leesmith View Post
That's interesting. Everyone, which seven teams do we have a chance of leapfrogging this season to make the playoffs?

My suspects:
- Dallas
- Calgary
- Anaheim
- Edmonton
- Phoenix
- San Jose
- Nashville

DAMN! That's a tall order indeed - especially with a lack of firepower and questions in goal. I'll predict a 12th place finish.
Swap out San Jose with Detroit. Their blueline is suffering something awful. At present they've got the equivalent of, say, us having to play Savard and Moore on the bottom pairing and pray that they work out... and no Murray to bail 'em out. If Holland doesn't sign one or two backup blueliners in the next few months, Oh Dear.

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Old
07-20-2012, 05:08 PM
  #292
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You have to take into account that this team suffered about every bad break imaginable between injuries and suspensions.

We finished last season 11-9, the last 20 games featured an intact defense, funny how important the blue line is. Thats 88-89 points projected over a season, right on the bottom side of the bubble. Calgary finished 9th in the West at 90 points for reference. I think this team is very capable of that, and more if as I said the goaltending can be better...Bobrovsky is a wild card, but I have a hunch he won't be as bad as Mason was last season.

Bottom line, projecting standings is more guess work than science. If you or I really knew what to expect from this coming season in the league, we'd be independently wealthy (maybe you are, but I know I'm not).
Yeah, I don't by the "bad break" nonsense that some of you have peddled. Our man games lost to injury were a problem precisely because of our lack of depth. At forward, that situation has not improved in any material way.

I'm a fan of the team and prone to overestimating their performance (although not as much as some)--in recent years they've almost always finished worse than I expected. Maybe this year will be different, but I doubt it.

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07-20-2012, 07:08 PM
  #293
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Agreed Captain..

Didn't Dougie Mac say he wouldn't swap our lineup for Detroits? Years ago I know, but right now I'm liking the Wild, Nashville & Jets lineup's let alone the more established teams.

I don't see us finishing higher than 12th, but I do think we can play much better than last year. I remember so many games where Mason let in a couple of the first 5 shots on goal. You just can't keep your team upbeat with that kind of **** hitting the fan.

If Bob can keep his save % about 92% and keep us in each game this season we should actually get to see some hockey. I am sick of the dump the puck bum's rush into the offensive zone. Control the puck, get shots, pot some rebounds, I'm good with that.

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Old
07-21-2012, 12:38 AM
  #294
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Didn't Dougie Mac say he wouldn't swap our lineup for Detroits? Years ago I know, but right now I'm liking the Wild, Nashville & Jets lineup's let alone the more established teams.
You'll have to pardon me, 'cause I'm not seeing what you're seeing.
  • The Jets aren't even in our conference, and while their blueline is enviable by many their offense is about as anemic as ours. Heck, one could arguably say they're us with somewhat more proven goaltending.
  • Minnesota has one heck of a "name brand" offense going, but they're having to hope that the kids on the blueline have adequately learned from last year's baptism by fire and can keep going. Tall order.
  • Nashville - even if Weber stays - is going to be having that kids-on-the-blueline baptism by fire this year. And while the offense is a capable and steady one, it's not exceptional enough to really carry weaknesses elsewhere.
I really don't think the gaps are as wide as suggested here.

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07-21-2012, 07:31 AM
  #295
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You'll have to pardon me, 'cause I'm not seeing what you're seeing.
  • The Jets aren't even in our conference, and while their blueline is enviable by many their offense is about as anemic as ours. Heck, one could arguably say they're us with somewhat more proven goaltending.
  • Minnesota has one heck of a "name brand" offense going, but they're having to hope that the kids on the blueline have adequately learned from last year's baptism by fire and can keep going. Tall order.
  • Nashville - even if Weber stays - is going to be having that kids-on-the-blueline baptism by fire this year. And while the offense is a capable and steady one, it's not exceptional enough to really carry weaknesses elsewhere.
I really don't think the gaps are as wide as suggested here.
But our guys are better drivers, especially with all the practice they get starting each April

And the kids on the blueline in Minny , especially that Suter one, need to keep improving

And for what it is worth, here's one guy, who sees the Jackets in their familiar spot

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/blog/ey...power-rankings

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07-21-2012, 08:51 AM
  #296
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But our guys are better drivers, especially with all the practice they get starting each April
Umm? Hrr... hrr...

Quote:
And for what it is worth, here's one guy, who sees the Jackets in their familiar spot

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/blog/ey...power-rankings
Less than nothing. Our changes can't be measured in wins or losses to this point. He does have one point, there is no where to go but up.

We will be a better team next year, that I believe. We weren't as bad a team as how we started last year. We were feeding on ourselves. The players seemed to have righted the ship a bit. The more I watched, the more I thought Arniel was a huge problem. Do I think Richards is a good coach? I don't think he's all that great or all that bad. I think he's what the Jackets players could use right now, so I am ok with it. A transitional coach for a transitional year. He does have one thing going for him that I really can't repeat.

Does this roster have problems? Of course. Are the problems big enough that this team is pre-ordained to finish 30th in the league? Hell no. What I think will make or break this team is how the players, individually, respond to adversity. Brassard being one of the biggest, Mason being the biggest if he is on this team, and the really young guys. Johansen and Atkinson being the biggest.

What I do think we did right is that we seem to be bringing in a lot more in the way of character. We'll see how that works out for us.

As far as Nash goes, I don't see anything that can be said about it. In the off season rankings of GM's, I give Howson a D- on his handling of Nash. The only reason it's not a F- is because he hasn't made an idiotic trade.

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07-21-2012, 09:03 AM
  #297
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And for what it is worth, here's one guy, who sees the Jackets in their familiar spot

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/blog/ey...power-rankings
We will have to get used to it because that's pretty much what everyone is going to do.

While we will factor in the injuries of last year, the upbeat finish, the "culture change", the improved blue line, and the general optimism of being fans, no one else is going to. They will look at last year, figure it's the CBJ, and just dump us into last again.

Until there are some wins, that's just the way it's going to be.

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Old
07-22-2012, 01:31 AM
  #298
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
But our guys are better drivers, especially with all the practice they get starting each April

And the kids on the blueline in Minny , especially that Suter one, need to keep improving

And for what it is worth, here's one guy, who sees the Jackets in their familiar spot

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/blog/ey...power-rankings
I'm sorry, did you quote my post by accident or something? I don't see anything in here that actually constitutes a reply to anything I said.

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Old
07-22-2012, 06:38 AM
  #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
He does have one point, there is no where to go but up.
Somebody should point out that this is true only if you care about nothing but the final standings.

The fact is, depending on how the Nash and goaltending situations get resolved, this season's CBJ could be substantially worse than last season's in terms of points in the standings and quality of the on-ice product.

And that, of course, will lead to the team being worse in attendance and an even greater preponderance of out-of-town fans coming in to scalp cheap tickets so they can watch an easy win by their team and have a laugh at the locals.

Which means the quality of the experience Blue Jacket fans are being offered for our entertainment dollars is even lower.

For me, the standings are a reflection of the quality of a team, not the sole measuring stick. This is why I was no fan of "Fail for Nail" nor will I advocate "Quit Winnin' for Makinnon."

This is also a big part of why I remain totally disgusted with the current "leadership" team.

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07-22-2012, 06:43 AM
  #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBJF View Post
Somebody should point out that this is true only if you care about nothing but the final standings.

The fact is, depending on how the Nash and goaltending situations get resolved, this season's CBJ could be substantially worse than last season's in terms of points in the standings and quality of the on-ice product.

And that, of course, will lead to the team being worse in attendance and an even greater preponderance of out-of-town fans coming in to scalp cheap tickets so they can watch an easy win by their team and have a laugh at the locals.

Which means the quality of the experience Blue Jacket fans are being offered for our entertainment dollars is even lower.

For me, the standings are a reflection of the quality of a team, not the sole measuring stick. This is why I was no fan of "Fail for Nail" nor will I advocate "Quit Winnin' for Makinnon."

This is also a big part of why I remain totally disgusted with the current "leadership" team.
While I nominally agree with the majority of this in principle (particularly that it is possible to get even worse), I do not think that it is likely that we'd do worse than last season - especially considering how the blueline is shaping up.

Of course, that could also be sabotaged if we were so inclined, but, heck, while we're discussing those sorts of events, we could also bring up the possibility of the Nat abruptly collapsing or something.

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