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What are the Predators going to do?

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Old
07-13-2012, 09:11 PM
  #26
Seto
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Poile basically threw away their two most talented wingers. I'd say that's bad management regardless of the circumstances.

Kostitsyn - Fisher - Hornqvist
Erat - Legwand - Smith
Spaling - Wilson - Halischuk
Bourque - Gaustad - Yip

Josi - Weber
Gill - Klein
Ellis - Blum

Rinne
Mason

Trade Ellis for a top four left handed defenseman.

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07-13-2012, 09:12 PM
  #27
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At worst? Really? Unless you use that definition of a #1 defenseman being just the best defenseman of any one NHL team, I really don't see him being one of those real (and few) number one defensemen. I don't think anything between #2 and #4 is unfair. He's good enough in both ways to be a #3, but if there's a guy that's playing a bit more of a dominant style of game on his pairing, he can just play what he needs to and fit well into a #4 role as well, pretty much like a #2. I don't think that difference is as big as it's made out to be.
While I do think that poster is being a bit overzealous. Hamhuis has vastly improved with the Canucks, to the point you could legitimately argue he is a "poor man's #1 and a phenomenal #2-3." Granted, this is if you utilize him properly. Hamhuis will never put up offense, nor should you expect it. He can quarterback a powerplay and is a stabilizing force as evident by his presence on Vancouver's first unit finally getting them in sync. Frankly, he has built Bieska into a whole better player since coming here.

Nevertheless, Nashville should have traded him at the deadline. He had made it well known Vancouver was his preference but they kept him on as a rental. Alrighty, live and learn however Suter is another story. Going into the season with him as a potential UFA proved disastrous. I argue if he was hesitant to sign, trading him would not have impacted Weber as significantly as his abrupt departure now. He could at least hang his hat on the notion Nashville is acquiring assets to replace him. Pittsburgh is a prime example of the initiative that eluded Nashville.

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07-13-2012, 09:17 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
While I do think that poster is being a bit overzealous. Hamhuis has vastly improved with the Canucks, to the point you could legitimately argue he is a "poor man's #1 and a phenomenal #2-3." Granted, this is if you utilize him properly. Hamhuis will never put up offense, nor should you expect it. He can quarterback a powerplay and is a stabilizing force as evident by his presence on Vancouver's first unit finally getting them in sync. Frankly, he has built Bieska into a whole better player since coming here.

Nevertheless, Nashville should have traded him at the deadline. He had made it well known Vancouver was his preference but they kept him on as a rental. Alrighty, live and learn however Suter is another story. Going into the season with him as a potential UFA proved disastrous. I argue if he was hesitant to sign, trading him would not have impacted Weber as significantly as his abrupt departure now. He could at least hang his hat on the notion Nashville is acquiring assets to replace him. Pittsburgh is a prime example of the initiative that eluded Nashville.
It would have impacted Weber, the team would have been significantly worst this year without Suter and the pieces brought in from trading him are likely to be futures/young players which wont help the Preds re-sign Weber. In my opinion trading Suter at the start of the season would guarantee Weber moving on.

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Old
07-13-2012, 09:24 PM
  #29
Vipers31
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Going into the season with him as a potential UFA proved disastrous. I argue if he was hesitant to sign, trading him would not have impacted Weber as significantly as his abrupt departure now. He could at least hang his hat on the notion Nashville is acquiring assets to replace him.
I understand your line of thinking, but in reality, I think players look at things a lot differently than GMs and armchair GMs like you and me. At least on average, they don't spend as much time thinking about trades and values. They mostly look at the rink where they are playing every day, and when a guy that's as big of a part as Suter was with Nashville, that's going to make a huge impression. I'm pretty sure there was no asset that would have made Weber say "well, sucks that Suter's gone, but this trade's really worth it with him possibly leaving next year". I am really sure that there's just a very different approach to thinking about these things between most players and us. I do understand your line of thinking, though, no question.

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Pittsburgh is a prime example of the initiative that eluded Nashville.
In trading Staal? I really don't see that as a comparable, at all. He was their #3 center, and in that was pretty much a luxury. The Penguins are pretty much guaranteed to be competive around the axis of Crosby, Malkin and Letang, and are an established high-caliber organisation in the league that has little problems attracting high-caliber talent to join the organisation. Nashville had its core of Weber-Suter-Rinne, and was just beginning to establish itself as more than the always somewhat underdog that was still getting "respectable" results out of it. Trading Suter, as one of the guys most imperative to the Preds' success, would have instantly decreased their chances by a lot. Trading Staal certainly hurt the Pens a bit, but he was paid (asset-wise) not just for what he was in Pittsburgh, but for what he's assumed to potentially be elsewhere, so that his replacement for his role in Pittsburgh came in Sutter, along with some other assets. I don't think there would have been a deal available for Suter that would have come close to replacing him as adequately in his role on the team as with Sutter in Pittsburgh.

It's an entirely different situation from Pittsburgh, in many ways. I think the decision for Poile was inifinitely more difficult than the one was for Shero.

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07-13-2012, 09:26 PM
  #30
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It's not as if he's made any brutal trade, there's only so much you can do with free agents..
It's more about the trades he didn't make. And he overplayed on a lot of players through trade this past season.

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07-13-2012, 09:29 PM
  #31
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I don't see any way in which Shea Weber signs in Nashville after Suter has bolted.

I am sure a bunch of NSH fans are going to protest this, but he seemed hesitant before, and I can't imagine watching his linemate walk has done much to instill confidence in the franchise.

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07-13-2012, 09:30 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by nhlfan9191 View Post
It's more about the trades he didn't make. And he overplayed on a lot of players through trade this past season.
Trades he should have made? Like who? Suter? Trading one of your best defensemen when you think you're a legitimate contender makes no sense, regardless of his contract status. Gaustad was probably a bit of an overpayment, but when you think you're that close, it's worth the risk. I just don't see what Poile has done that would be considered destroying his team.

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07-13-2012, 09:38 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by MadDevil View Post
Trades he should have made? Like who? Suter? Trading one of your best defensemen when you think you're a legitimate contender makes no sense, regardless of his contract status. Gaustad was probably a bit of an overpayment, but when you think you're that close, it's worth the risk. I just don't see what Poile has done that would be considered destroying his team.
Yeah, I absolutely agree. Gaustad appeared to be overpayment, but the Preds had never really gone "all in" like that with their picks, and waited patiently. Kostitsyn was a fair gamble at a fair price, IMO, just didn't work out. Gill seemed fair value. He also managed to keep the two guys he wanted on the team, so that they were not paid for as just rentals. The picks lost in that process that were supposed to help their playoff run has further been softened by getting Tampa's two 2nd rounders for Lindback. I don't think Nashville will be destroyed by Poile. He's done a great job for a long time, and has now been having to deal with a very tough hand. Can't blame anything substantial on him, just yet. The outcome on Weber will, however, be the most important one.

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07-13-2012, 09:55 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Spezzator View Post
As of now, the Predators have their goalie tandem signed: Pekka Rinne and Chris Mason. So that's good. On the blueline, they only have their 2nd pairing of Hal Gill and Kevin Klein signed, along with Roman Josi signed to an ELC. Shea Weber, as we all know, is an RFA. Up front, they have a pretty anemic cast of forwards, the best of which being Martin Erat, David Legwand, Mike Fisher Patric Hornqvist. Outside of those 4, only depth players are signed: Paul Gaustad, Nick Spaling, Craig Smith, Brandon Yip, Matt Halischuk, Gabriel Bourque and Brian McGratton.

What the hell are the Predators going to do? Obviously their NUMBER ONE priority is to get Shea Weber signed to a lifetime extension. After that, what happens for them? One thing's for sure, even when they had a spectacular defense, they need more talent up front. I realize they've got some guys who can get the job done offensively but am I alone in thinking that they should just give Alex Semin a multi-year deal? I think they need a legitimate top line centre the most but I guess they simply need to do whatever it takes to infuse more offense into the lineup. What about their defense? I hear a lot of great things about Josi and perhaps he will be comfortable on the top pairing with Weber, but they still need more dependable bodies on their blueline.

Anyway, I honestly don't mean to troll with this thread. It's actually an interesting topic, the position the Predators are in. They've got a very thin looking roster and the best options in free agency have passed them by. What's on the agenda for David Poile and the Predators?
it is quite interesting the number of people that do not know the difference between a forward who face the first lines and start 65+% of the time in there ozone and forwards who face first lines start in there ozone less thaan 40% of the time.

In the standard first comp players get 15 even min a game.
Since the lockout the less than 40 % average 18 even points for the season.
the 65+ forwards averaged 53 Even points. A difference of 33 points just from the zone start.

Erat and fisher were in the 40-45% and should be 22 Ev points.
fisher had 39 EVP and Erat 36 points.

Then the great toews 59 games in the 65% zone start and should have 40 EV points. he had 42 even points.

before you start labelling a player, know the history of the game and what is real results for players in a given situation.

fisher and erat were 70% above expected production. the best even line pair in the league.

Could you imagine them in a 65% zone start.
Like Malkin, Neal, Kane, toews
or 75% like the sedins.

Erat and fisher kick the **** out of the other teams best.

if they get any secondary support from the second and third lines hammering easier comp.
They will be in a good position.

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Old
07-13-2012, 10:00 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by oilerbear View Post
it is quite interesting the number of people that do not know the difference between a forward who face the first lines and start 65+% of the time in there ozone and forwards who face first lines start in there ozone less thaan 40% of the time.

In the standard first comp players get 15 even min a game.
Since the lockout the less than 40 % average 18 even points for the season.
the 65+ forwards averaged 53 Even points. A difference of 33 points just from the zone start.

Erat and fisher were in the 40-45% and should be 22 Ev points.
fisher had 39 EVP and Erat 36 points.

Then the great toews 59 games in the 65% zone start and should have 40 EV points. he had 42 even points.

before you start labelling a player, know the history of the game and what is real results for players in a given situation.

fisher and erat were 70% above expected production. the best even line pair in the league.

Could you imagine them in a 65% zone start.
Like Malkin, Neal, Kane, toews
or 75% like the sedins.
That's great. At the end of the day, the Predators still need more offense. Maybe Trotz could help his team more by allowing one line to focus on scoring while the rest focus on defense. It's all well and fine that the Predators are this super great story of a team that stays competitive because their coach gets the most out of his players and gets them all to play well in both ends. Honestly, it's great. But at the end of the day they're going nowhere if they don't infuse more talent into their roster. I can't be the only one who feels this way.

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07-13-2012, 10:05 PM
  #36
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I believe Hamhuis has been voted in the top 30 defensemen over the last 2 years, puting him statistically as a #1 Dman, if you put any stock in those polls - which you probably shouldn't. Having said that, Hamhuis is not a true #1Dman, not in the traditional sense. But his numbers (advanced stats etc.) are amazing, I believe last year someone listed him as the #1 defensive dman in the league. But for a #1D i look for more attributes; a booming shot, and immense offensive ability.

That's why I've always considered Hamhuis the perfect #2D. But he could be a poor man's #1, and is definitely a top pairing D. But he has improved greatly since his Nashville days, so he was a #3 then - plus he happened to be behind two legit #1Dmen. Incredible how much of a Dman-factory Nashville has been.

Re: Nashville

They will be ok, no matter what happens. One of the best drafting teams there is, and there prospect pool is always great, as it is reight now. They can fill all the holes with prospects. Most likely they will sign Weber to a lifetime contract, but even if they don't, they will bring up prospects to balance the team. And worst case scenario, they don't do terrific for one season, and they are able to draft a bluechip prospect. Then they'll be back. They always do ok.

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07-13-2012, 10:06 PM
  #37
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Hahaha Hamhuis is most defintly more than that, hes a #2 at worst
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Originally Posted by Kesler2Kesler View Post
Let him feel good about his teams choices.
What you two (and many others now that I read further) are ignoring here is that Hamhuis would have been a 3/4 defenseman. We still had both Suter and Weber, and Hamhuis was never going to crack that pairing up, I don't care how much you like him on your team. So yes, Hamhuis wanted too much money for a 3/4 defenseman. You should probably look at context before getting offended.

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07-13-2012, 10:07 PM
  #38
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The Preds need more offense after coming off of a season in which they had a top 10 offense and number 1 PP? Not to mention it as one of the youngest teams in the league, and at least some of those players will grow. I think right now the only concern with forwards is a center better than Fisher or Legwand. The blueline is the main concern considering Weber is dangling there without a contract, and Suter's minutes have to be replaced.

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07-13-2012, 10:14 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Redarmynative View Post
Poile basically threw away their two most talented wingers. I'd say that's bad management regardless of the circumstances.

Kostitsyn - Fisher - Hornqvist
Erat - Legwand - Smith
Spaling - Wilson - Halischuk
Bourque - Gaustad - Yip

Josi - Weber
Gill - Klein
Ellis - Blum

Rinne
Mason

Trade Ellis for a top four left handed defenseman.
You're talking about AK and Radulov, right? One of those two guys wasn't exactly liked in the locker room, and neither of them helped bring the offense into the top 10, where it finished, or the PP into the number 1 spot, where it, too, finished.

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07-13-2012, 10:16 PM
  #40
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The Preds need more offense after coming off of a season in which they had a top 10 offense and number 1 PP? Not to mention it as one of the youngest teams in the league, and at least some of those players will grow. I think right now the only concern with forwards is a center better than Fisher or Legwand. The blueline is the main concern considering Weber is dangling there without a contract, and Suter's minutes have to be replaced.
I think so.

So the offense had a pretty good year. It doesn't mean you can't strive to improve. Do you really think your current group of forwards as is, is really going to repeat that success? Don't count on it.

Don't mean to be aggressive or anything. I actually respect the Predators organization a lot and I'm kind of a fan so I feel a bit passionate about them making some changes to take steps forward.

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07-13-2012, 10:17 PM
  #41
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What is Nashville going to do? Make the playoffs of course, only to lose in the 2nd round. With their system and team play they locked for 7th at worst IMO.

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07-13-2012, 10:20 PM
  #42
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I never said I expect it to repeat, but it always seems like the mantra from outsiders is "Nashville needs more offense". Even during last season when the team was rolling right along offensively people continued to talk about how the Preds offense was weak. Yes, the team could benefit from more talent. Can't that be said for basically every team in the league?

The fact remains that the only true need right now up front is a center to play top line minutes so we can move Fish and Leggy down a spot each. That would free up a top line to be a true offensive threat, Fisher and Erat can continue eating teams alive while still scoring some goals, and Legwand can do the same to a lesser extent on the third line.

I realize that Nashville isn't the team to watch year-in and year-out, and I realize they don't get a lot of attention in Canada especially. With that said, Matt Halischuk, Craig Smith, Gabriel Bourque, and Nick Spaling all looked very good last year. I don't see Wilson going anywhere unless it's a trade, so there's him, too.

The Preds need to make moves, but people are acting like Poile somehow blew up the team and needs to rebuild. All that has happened is Suter walked (after telling Poile in November that he was going to stay). It's really not the end of the world in Nashville.

The biggest concern is filling the minutes that Suter ate up. Josi looked great, but I'm not sure if he is able to play 25 minutes per night. 20 might be his max right now. Weber needs to be locked up, and then a 3/4 needs to be found. Minutes can be shared if Josi can't hang, and, really, you can just keep him off of the PK to limit them as much as possible. PP time isn't an issue.

Also, Klein and Josi are the second pairing. Gill and Ellis are the third pairing. Blum and Ekholm are topping the defensive side of the depth chart.

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07-13-2012, 10:21 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
What you two (and many others now that I read further) are ignoring here is that Hamhuis would have been a 3/4 defenseman. We still had both Suter and Weber, and Hamhuis was never going to crack that pairing up, I don't care how much you like him on your team. So yes, Hamhuis wanted too much money for a 3/4 defenseman. You should probably look at context before getting offended.
Ok, that makes sense, No way hes better than those two, but yea i think hes a #2

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07-13-2012, 10:22 PM
  #44
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The awesome thing about the Predators is that, when it comes down to it, they possess arguably the 2nd best goalie in the league and best defenseman in the league. They've got the cream of the crop in those areas. If they are able to acquire some better offensive pieces and develop some of their prospects into legitimate top line forwards (ie. 70+ point forwards) they might just become the best, most well rounded team in the league.

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07-13-2012, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
I never said I expect it to repeat, but it always seems like the mantra from outsiders is "Nashville needs more offense". Even during last season when the team was rolling right along offensively people continued to talk about how the Preds offense was weak. Yes, the team could benefit from more talent. Can't that be said for basically every team in the league?

The fact remains that the only true need right now up front is a center to play top line minutes so we can move Fish and Leggy down a spot each. That would free up a top line to be a true offensive threat, Fisher and Erat can continue eating teams alive while still scoring some goals, and Legwand can do the same to a lesser extent on the third line.

I realize that Nashville isn't the team to watch year-in and year-out, and I realize they don't get a lot of attention in Canada especially. With that said, Matt Halischuk, Craig Smith, Gabriel Bourque, and Nick Spaling all looked very good last year. I don't see Wilson going anywhere unless it's a trade, so there's him, too.

The Preds need to make moves, but people are acting like Poile somehow blew up the team and needs to rebuild. All that has happened is Suter walked (after telling Poile in November that he was going to stay). It's really not the end of the world in Nashville.

The biggest concern is filling the minutes that Suter ate up. Josi looked great, but I'm not sure if he is able to play 25 minutes per night. 20 might be his max right now. Weber needs to be locked up, and then a 3/4 needs to be found. Minutes can be shared if Josi can't hang, and, really, you can just keep him off of the PK to limit them as much as possible. PP time isn't an issue.

Also, Klein and Josi are the second pairing. Gill and Ellis are the third pairing. Blum and Ekholm are topping the defensive side of the depth chart.
In my humble opinion, Wilson is a key guy. Has he stumbled a bit or is he just being slowly developed by the Predators? Do you see him developing into a prototypical all around 1st line centre with size that can make plays and also shoot the puck? If so, that's a huge piece.

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07-13-2012, 10:26 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Redarmynative View Post
Poile basically threw away their two most talented wingers. I'd say that's bad management regardless of the circumstances.

Kostitsyn - Fisher - Hornqvist
Erat - Legwand - Smith
Spaling - Wilson - Halischuk
Bourque - Gaustad - Yip

Josi - Weber
Gill - Klein
Ellis - Blum

Rinne
Mason

Trade Ellis for a top four left handed defenseman.
It's more like

SK - Fisher - Erat
Wilson - Legwand - Hornqvist
Bourque - Smith - Halischuk
Spaling - Gaustad - Yip

Though Spaling and Smith are interchangeable, just like Halischuk and Hornqvist/Bourque and Wilson.

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07-13-2012, 10:28 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Spezzator View Post
In my humble opinion, Wilson is a key guy. Has he stumbled a bit or is he just being slowly developed by the Predators? Do you see him developing into a prototypical all around 1st line centre with size that can make plays and also shoot the puck? If so, that's a huge piece.
I don't see him turning into any kind of center as long as he is in Nashville. Trotz relies heavily on his centers being able to play defense, and Wilson is just too inconsistent defensively. He looked really good on the wing for much of the season last year, though, and at times showed that he has the skill set to take over a game. Smith is more likely to turn into a true 1C than Wilson, but with Spaling and Goose I'm not sure we see Smith playing too much time in the middle either.

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07-13-2012, 10:30 PM
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Trades he should have made? Like who? Suter? Trading one of your best defensemen when you think you're a legitimate contender makes no sense, regardless of his contract status. Gaustad was probably a bit of an overpayment, but when you think you're that close, it's worth the risk. I just don't see what Poile has done that would be considered destroying his team.
Gaustad and Gill were both huge overpayments and he should have at the very least traded Suter's rights for something.

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07-13-2012, 10:30 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
It's more like

SK - Fisher - Erat
Wilson - Legwand - Hornqvist
Bourque - Smith - Halischuk
Spaling - Gaustad - Yip

Though Spaling and Smith are interchangeable, just like Halischuk and Hornqvist/Bourque and Wilson.
I think Wilson is set for a breakout year, on defense they still have Blum/Ellis to continue to mature and ease the hefty loss of suter.. They should make the playoffs but Dallas/Minnesota will be knocking on the door.

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07-13-2012, 10:35 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nhlfan9191 View Post
Gaustad and Gill were both huge overpayments and he should have at the very least traded Suter's rights for something.
I'm really glad you're not the GM of the Predators.

Gaustad and Gill may have been overpayments, but it's the trade deadline. A lot of trades are overpayments. From everything I heard, Detroit was hard after Goose, too, and Poile had already traded away Smithson (the 4C at the time) because he just wasn't fitting the mold anymore.

You're also ignoring, purposefully or not, the fact that the PK needed to be retooled. Special teams win games in the playoffs. The PP was already as good as it was going to get (finishing 1st in the league). The PK needed to be beefed up, and who better to get (who was available) than Gill and Gaustad? And it worked.

And I'm not really sure what Suter's rights have to do with anything. The season was already over. The best we could have hoped for out of trading Suter's rights would have been a low 1st at very best, and even then it's unlikely. Poile had been told by Suter himself that Ryan would be signing a deal in Nashville. He stayed in the mix, aggressively, until the end.

It's pretty easy to play armchair GM with hindsight at your disposal, but if you're telling me you don't try everything you can to keep what could have gone down as the best defensive pairing in the history of the league then I think you give up too easily.

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