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Old
07-13-2012, 10:59 PM
  #26
Vankiller Whale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilch View Post
I would do an Edler for Couturier swap straight up. Not sure if Flyers fan find it fair.
I wouldn't, as we would then need a replacement top 4. That's why the Schenns made more sense, imo.

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07-13-2012, 11:03 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
You compared Edler to Richards in terms of value for a Schenn... I don't think Edler's value is that far off what the Flyers got for Richards: Schenn, Simmonds, 2nd Round Pick.
think Brent Burns is a decent comparision for Edler's value.

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07-13-2012, 11:04 PM
  #28
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Never.

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Old
07-13-2012, 11:06 PM
  #29
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I'd do this in a heartbeat if we for some reason couldn't resign edler. If we are able to sign him long term, I wouldn't do it. I'm assuming Flyers fans wouldn't do it either.

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07-13-2012, 11:07 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
1) The difference in value between Luongo and Edler is only because of the market, and to a lesser extent age.

2) Edler will likely be looking for a raise in the 6mil+ zone. It is possible that he throws our cap structure out of wack. The Schenns are both locked up long term at pretty decent cap hits, assuming they produce.
B Schenn has a cap hit of 3.1 (900k, 810k salary)
L Schenn has a cap hit of 3.6 over 4 years (3.3 salary).

But how does Brayden's 2 yr deal equal "locked up long term"!?

Edler is a very attractive piece, and could easily replace Timo if he's resigned. But there's absolutely no reason to make this trade unless he resigns. And even if he does, Philly is over paying for him. Not by a lot, but Van would have to send something the other way (say a 1st, while Philly adds a 2nd?? - idk).

Additionally if they did make this trade, Van's D is in trouble. Edler is their #1D, and really their only offensive PMD guy. Bieska and Garrison are both nice pieces, but neither are offensive guys (not ones that will really skate the puck anyway). If you move Edler (or God forbid he gets hurt for any length of time) you'll realise how important he is to your D.

You already lost Erhroff, can you afford to lose your only other offensive D?

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07-13-2012, 11:11 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
think Brent Burns is a decent comparision for Edler's value.
A little different but similar, but the trade that happend for Burns is quite different than the one being proposed.

Setoguchi is also very similar to Schenn, in terms of playing and career #'s at the same age...

That is trading for NHL assets vs trading for young players still developing.

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07-13-2012, 11:12 PM
  #32
Flair Hay
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If I'm Vancouver, I wait for Edler to turn 30 before I give up the dream of him being a top five defenseman. Te potential is there.

If I'm Philadelphia, I wait for the youth I gave up proven talent to acquire to turn the team into a contender, not just flip one for a short term need.

Good value, doesn't make enough sense for both teams.

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07-13-2012, 11:13 PM
  #33
LickTheEnvelope
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhay1987 View Post
If I'm Vancouver, I wait for Edler to turn 30 before I give up the dream of him being a top five defenseman. Te potential is there.

If I'm Philadelphia, I wait for the youth I gave up proven talent to acquire to turn the team into a contender, not just flip one for a short term need.

Good value, doesn't make enough sense for both teams.

Exactly.

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07-13-2012, 11:15 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
A little different but similar, but the trade that happend for Burns is quite different than the one being proposed.

Setoguchi is also very similar to Schenn, in terms of playing and career #'s at the same age...

That is trading for NHL assets vs trading for young players still developing.
I don't think Schenn and Seto were comparable. Schenn was in competition for best prospect not in the nhl/most NHL-ready prospect after he came off a dominating year with his WJ performance, his performance with Saskatoon and a good AHL stint with the Manchester Monarch. Setoguchi on the other hand was already established, but his point totals were down compared to his output in his first full yr. He is more comparable to Simmonds imo.

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Old
07-13-2012, 11:17 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
B Schenn has a cap hit of 3.1 (900k, 810k salary)
L Schenn has a cap hit of 3.6 over 4 years (3.3 salary).

But how does Brayden's 2 yr deal equal "locked up long term"!?

Edler is a very attractive piece, and could easily replace Timo if he's resigned. But there's absolutely no reason to make this trade unless he resigns. And even if he does, Philly is over paying for him. Not by a lot, but Van would have to send something the other way (say a 1st, while Philly adds a 2nd?? - idk).

Additionally if they did make this trade, Van's D is in trouble. Edler is their #1D, and really their only offensive PMD guy. Bieska and Garrison are both nice pieces, but neither are offensive guys (not ones that will really skate the puck anyway). If you move Edler (or God forbid he gets hurt for any length of time) you'll realise how important he is to your D.

You already lost Erhroff, can you afford to lose your only other offensive D?
Bieksa is the epitome of offensive defenseman, and Garrison got 17 goals last year. Even Hamhuis put up a respectable 37 points, not to mention Ballard is looking like he might rebound, and he's also an offensive dman.

Edler is an excellent player, but I wouldn't define him as a PMD. We got Garrison for exactly that reason.

Although my mistake on Brayden Schenn's contract, for some reason I thought he had the same term as Luke.

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Old
07-13-2012, 11:17 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icebreakers View Post
Edler>2schenns and a 2nd.
No. If you look at it as the Schenns will never ever get better, then yes I'd agree. But Brayden Schenn was one of the best prospect's in the NHL last summer. L Schenn was a monster in his 1st NHL season. 2nd one was crappy. 3rd was pretty decent, and last year was a down year. But he has the tools and the potential to become a solid top 4 shutdown D - who hits like a truck.

And in making a trade for them, you're paying for that potential. Edler is good, but not worth both Schenns.

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Old
07-13-2012, 11:25 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Bieksa is the epitome of offensive defenseman, and Garrison got 17 goals last year. Even Hamhuis put up a respectable 37 points, not to mention Ballard is looking like he might rebound, and he's also an offensive dman.

Edler is an excellent player, but I wouldn't define him as a PMD. We got Garrison for exactly that reason.

Although my mistake on Brayden Schenn's contract, for some reason I thought he had the same term as Luke.
I think we'll just agree to disagree on how you're evaluating those players.

Dan Hamhius is an amazing shutdown guy. But he's not an offensice juggernaut. Same goes for Bieska. Although he's certainly better than Hamhuis. They're not bad with the puck, but neither are they offensive with it.

Garrison was paired with Campbell who was his setup man. Sure those numbers are sexy and while there's a huge risk that he'll never repeat (lets give him some credit that he continues to post decent numbers going forward), I still don't see him as a PMD who'll skate the puck.

Like I said... I think we'll end up agreeing to disagree.

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Old
07-13-2012, 11:30 PM
  #38
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It's nice to talk about on HF, but do you think a gm would even contemplate trading a #1Dman for an 18 point forward who hopefully drastically improves? I'm not trying to diss Brayden here because I like him a lot, and think he will be a real good 2nd line forward, possibly even a top line forward. But #1Ds are the hardest position to find, that's because defensemen are so much more difficult then forwards to predict how they will turn out.

Schenn is really good and I would trade a lot for him. But would never consider trading Edler for him. And personally, Luke has little value in my mind, but hopefully he becomes a really solid middle pairing D for Philly.

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Old
07-13-2012, 11:45 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhay1987 View Post
If I'm Vancouver, I wait for Edler to turn 30 before I give up the dream of him being a top five defenseman. Te potential is there.

If I'm Philadelphia, I wait for the youth I gave up proven talent to acquire to turn the team into a contender, not just flip one for a short term need.

Good value, doesn't make enough sense for both teams.
Very good post. Sums it up nicely.

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Old
07-13-2012, 11:46 PM
  #40
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No thanks. Edler is not moving unless Shea Weber is coming back and last time I checked Philly doesn't have Shea Weber

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Old
07-13-2012, 11:49 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Socratic Method Man View Post
It's nice to talk about on HF, but do you think a gm would even contemplate trading a #1Dman for an 18 point forward who hopefully drastically improves? I'm not trying to diss Brayden here because I like him a lot, and think he will be a real good 2nd line forward, possibly even a top line forward. But #1Ds are the hardest position to find, that's because defensemen are so much more difficult then forwards to predict how they will turn out.

Schenn is really good and I would trade a lot for him. But would never consider trading Edler for him. And personally, Luke has little value in my mind, but hopefully he becomes a really solid middle pairing D for Philly.
Since when has reality gotten in the way of HF proposals?sarcasm:

But seriously, Philadelphia traded a 1st line centre for futures(really good ones), and that is as hard a hole to fill. And although Edler is great, in the long term we will be be better off. Although there is risk involved, personally I think that Luke Schenn will be a top pairing shut down defenseman, and Brayden will be around a 70 point forward. Obviously I can't convey my hunches to other people, but I think this trade would make us better off in the long run.

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07-13-2012, 11:51 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Since when has reality gotten in the way of HF proposals?sarcasm:

But seriously, Philadelphia traded a 1st line centre for futures(really good ones), and that is as hard a hole to fill. And although Edler is great, in the long term we will be be better off. Although there is risk involved, personally I think that Luke Schenn will be a top pairing shut down defenseman, and Brayden will be around a 70 point forward. Obviously I can't convey my hunches to other people, but I think this trade would make us better off in the long run.
If the Canucks wanted Luke Schenn we could have traded Luongo for him AND kept Edler, but Gillis said no.

Brayden Schenn does not make up the difference between Luke and Edler

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Old
07-13-2012, 11:56 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Henrik To Daniel View Post
If the Canucks wanted Luke Schenn we could have traded Luongo for him AND kept Edler, but Gillis said no.

Brayden Schenn does not make up the difference between Luke and Edler
He didn't want Luke(+) because we were signing Garrison(I think).

But if we move Edler, then a spot becomes open for him.

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07-14-2012, 12:03 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Since when has reality gotten in the way of HF proposals?sarcasm:

But seriously, Philadelphia traded a 1st line centre for futures(really good ones), and that is as hard a hole to fill. And although Edler is great, in the long term we will be be better off. Although there is risk involved, personally I think that Luke Schenn will be a top pairing shut down defenseman, and Brayden will be around a 70 point forward. Obviously I can't convey my hunches to other people, but I think this trade would make us better off in the long run.
Interesting. I personally never saw top pairing potential in Luke, simply because he never seemed to have the foot speed - but I'd be happy for Philly if that comes to be. It's pretty good value, really. Brayden is blue chip, he will be good, I could see 70 point potential. It's a pretty fair proposal, I just can't see Vancouver doing this because Edler is such a critical part of the team. Maybe if Weber was somehow coming to Vancouver... but that isn't likely to happen. But good proposal.

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Old
07-14-2012, 12:03 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
He didn't want Luke(+) because we were signing Garrison(I think).

But if we move Edler, then a spot becomes open for him.
If we lose Edler we lose our #1 dman for a guy who COULD be a top pairing guy.... in a few years. We are trying to win now and Edler helps us more than Luke.

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Old
07-14-2012, 12:09 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Henrik To Daniel View Post
If we lose Edler we lose our #1 dman for a guy who COULD be a top pairing guy.... in a few years. We are trying to win now and Edler helps us more than Luke.
I think this is the crux of the difference in opinion.

We either gear up for a final push for the cup within 3-5 years, or we try to remain solid contenders perpetually. I think Gillis is aiming for the latter.

EDIT: Also, I'd say Luke is a victim of Ron Wilson's "screw defense and try to score as many goals as possible" philosophy. Look at the shutdown defensemen that have struggled there(Beauchmin, Komisarek) and compare it to the offensive ones(Phaneuf, Gardiner).

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

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Old
07-14-2012, 12:14 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I think this is the crux of the difference in opinion.

We either gear up for a final push for the cup within 3-5 years, or we try to remain solid contenders perpetually. I think Gillis is aiming for the latter.
That really all depends on the goalie situation. If Gillis can't get a deal done for Luongo he has no choice but to go all in this season.

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Old
07-14-2012, 12:20 AM
  #48
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throw in kassian

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Old
07-14-2012, 12:26 AM
  #49
Vankiller Whale
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
throw in kassian
You know we can't really do that, right? I mean, we throw him into Weber proposals, but he really can't be traded until we know if Gillis made the right decision, not to mention that we need all the toughness we can get.

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Old
07-14-2012, 12:32 AM
  #50
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Luke Schenn isn't very good. Toronto won that trade in a landslide and there's no way I accept this trade.

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