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Summer 2012 Free Agency: Holy God, match that offersheet please, Nashville

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Old
07-16-2012, 10:48 PM
  #276
mr sidney crosby
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
Yeah, let's trade Paul Martin for a B/C level prospect who isn't NHL ready (and may never be a top-6 forward in the NHL) with the plan to put him on the first line with Sid. I don't think so.


Also, unless he gets traded or really sucks in camp, Bortuzzo will be on this roster to start the season.
My bad. Who do you want if we traded paul martin to detroit or another option is nashville. Who would you want from there?

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07-16-2012, 10:53 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by mr sidney crosby View Post
My bad. Who do you want if we traded paul martin to detroit or another option is nashville. Who would you want from there?
It's not happening since we traded Michalek. But Wilson from Nashville. Nothing from Detroit really.

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07-16-2012, 11:23 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by mr sidney crosby View Post
My bad. Who do you want if we traded paul martin to detroit or another option is nashville. Who would you want from there?

Yes, Colin Wilson is right at the top of my list of players I would target by trade, along with Setoguchi from Minnesota. I think both of those players could be long-term fixtures to our top-6 and wingers for Crosby. If I had the chance of getting one of those players for Martin (or Orpik), I would make the sacrifice of going young on the blue-line and make have growing pains for one year with a guy like Despres or Dumoulin in the top 4.

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07-16-2012, 11:29 PM
  #279
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Also, unless he gets traded or really sucks in camp, Bortuzzo will be on this roster to start the season.
I still think Despres forces his way in and see no chance of having 2 rookies in the lineup unless someone is injured.

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07-16-2012, 11:33 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by mr sidney crosby View Post
Paul martin to detroit for Teemu Pulkkinen.
Sign Semin

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Dumoulin seemed nhl ready at camp but thats just prospects he's playing against. And we have enough space to get a cheap defensive defensmen at the deadline.
You forgot our leader. Mr.Joe Vitale unless.. oh wait. He's so amazing thar his name is too sacred to be affiliated with these scrubs.

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07-16-2012, 11:40 PM
  #281
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I still think Despres forces his way in and see no chance of having 2 rookies in the lineup unless someone is injured.

That may be true, and that's just fine by me, because I think Strait is the guy that is going to get moved.


I like Strait and think that one day he can be a Scuderi-like player; but his development curve will follow Scuderi's and he'll get to that level in 3 or 4 years time; whereas Harrington will already be at that kind of level when he steps into the line-up in 1 or 2 years.


Bortuzzo, on the other hand, provides a unique element to our blue-line just because of his overall size, and better all-around (physical & 2-way) play. And he's a right-handed shot & plays the right side, so there's no doubt in my mind that he's the one who sticks longer-term. I would include Bortuzzo in a trade for a Wilson or Setoguchi, but otherwise he will be on this team next year.


The way I see it is: either Martin or Orpik get traded in a big deal for a forward, and then both Strait AND Despres will stick in the top 7, or Orpik and Martin are retained and Strait is either the 7th D and gets traded at some point between the beginning of this season and next year's draft. I just don't see him having a long-term future with this club, and will make solid trade bait for teams who could use a reliable defender who could play a lot of years for them.

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07-17-2012, 01:47 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
That may be true, and that's just fine by me, because I think Strait is the guy that is going to get moved.


I like Strait and think that one day he can be a Scuderi-like player; but his development curve will follow Scuderi's and he'll get to that level in 3 or 4 years time; whereas Harrington will already be at that kind of level when he steps into the line-up in 1 or 2 years.


Bortuzzo, on the other hand, provides a unique element to our blue-line just because of his overall size, and better all-around (physical & 2-way) play. And he's a right-handed shot & plays the right side, so there's no doubt in my mind that he's the one who sticks longer-term. I would include Bortuzzo in a trade for a Wilson or Setoguchi, but otherwise he will be on this team next year.


The way I see it is: either Martin or Orpik get traded in a big deal for a forward, and then both Strait AND Despres will stick in the top 7, or Orpik and Martin are retained and Strait is either the 7th D and gets traded at some point between the beginning of this season and next year's draft. I just don't see him having a long-term future with this club, and will make solid trade bait for teams who could use a reliable defender who could play a lot of years for them.
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Originally Posted by mr sidney crosby View Post
My bad. Who do you want if we traded paul martin to detroit or another option is nashville. Who would you want from there?
Really depends on how Shero values his D vs allowing some growing pains to let the young guys take that next step.

Personally I think the issue isn't with trading one of Martin, Orpik or Niskanen. It's that we have a vet in Engelland who isn't a 2nd pairing guy who's taking up a roster spot. Meaning that unless Drepres or another rookie can play top 4 minutes, that we're kinda limited with how many rookies we can dress this year, as Engelland's icetime could easily be filled by a rookie, however his skillset is still fairly unique to our lineup. That's one of the reasons I'd love to get an upgrade on Engelland (an Allen type of player) who is a top 4 D, which would open up a spot on the 3rd pairing for a rookie.

Mind you dressing 7D would also allow us to move one of our top 4D and still not have to force someone to play too many minutes.

It wouldn't bother me too much to see 2 rookies in the regular lineup during the season. There's 4-5 months before the TD to figure out if they can hack it, or if a vet is needed.

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07-17-2012, 02:29 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Really depends on how Shero values his D vs allowing some growing pains to let the young guys take that next step.

Personally I think the issue isn't with trading one of Martin, Orpik or Niskanen. It's that we have a vet in Engelland who isn't a 2nd pairing guy who's taking up a roster spot. Meaning that unless Drepres or another rookie can play top 4 minutes, that we're kinda limited with how many rookies we can dress this year, as Engelland's icetime could easily be filled by a rookie, however his skillset is still fairly unique to our lineup. That's one of the reasons I'd love to get an upgrade on Engelland (an Allen type of player) who is a top 4 D, which would open up a spot on the 3rd pairing for a rookie.

Mind you dressing 7D would also allow us to move one of our top 4D and still not have to force someone to play too many minutes.

It wouldn't bother me too much to see 2 rookies in the regular lineup during the season. There's 4-5 months before the TD to figure out if they can hack it, or if a vet is needed.
The problem with trying to upgrade off of Engelland is that while there are guys that can bring what he brings (outside of the fighting part), there's essentially no one in the league who does what he does for as little money as he makes. Having a really good 5-6 who fights and makes less than a million a year is really valuable.

I do think we need to upgrade our D, but it doesn't seem like it's likely to happen unless it comes from within. Despres, if he adjusts well, could help a lot; if Niskanen develops a little more that helps too. If Orpik and Martin return to form that's an even bigger help. Minor system adjustments could help also.

We have to remember that our defense was actually very good in the regular season, even if Orpik and Martin were very obviously making more mistakes than usual. It's much more likely that the Philly series was the outlier. We can make improvements for sure, but it's also not as hopeless as people make it sound without adding someone new.

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07-17-2012, 04:01 AM
  #284
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The problem with trying to upgrade off of Engelland is that while there are guys that can bring what he brings (outside of the fighting part), there's essentially no one in the league who does what he does for as little money as he makes. Having a really good 5-6 who fights and makes less than a million a year is really valuable.

I do think we need to upgrade our D, but it doesn't seem like it's likely to happen unless it comes from within. Despres, if he adjusts well, could help a lot;... Minor system adjustments could help also.

We have to remember that our defense was actually very good in the regular season... but it's also not as hopeless as people make it sound without adding someone new.
Was our D that good, or was our amazing offensive ability (or MAF) hiding/masking our D's issues?

I'm not disputing that Engelland holds value to us. He's a solid 3rd pairing guy who's sound defensively, physical, fights and is on an amazing contract. But we have a few things to consider. We have a TON of D prospects. 3 or 4 of which are NHL ready this year (Strait, Bort, Despres and potentially Dumoulin) - with Morrow and Harrington likely ready the following year (or worse case the year after). We have to start getting these guys that are ready into the lineup so that when others are ready that we can make room. Or we're suddenly going to have to insert multiple rookies at the same time...

If you look at our D (forget the pairings for a min) without a trade (or injuries) there's no way to get more than one of our rookies any real icetime without putting someone into the top 4 (either a rookie or Engelland).

Losing what Engelland brings leaves a hole. But dressing him really limits DB's options when it comes to trying to limit a rookies icetime (assuming we only dress 6). I wouldn't be opposed to moving Engelland & another D (Niskanen/Martin) for someone like Gleason/Allen/Reghr/Hejda, etc who has some of Engelland's bite, but is a top 4D (and gets paid like it). As it would free up a spot on the 3rd pairing for a young guy to get a shot.

It also causes a bottle neck in the sense that it delays Dumoulin (not that that's a bad thing), but in delaying 1 prospect, that could further delay other prospects (only so many spots, etc) causing a ripple effect all the way down the chain. For these players to develop they need NHL icetime (at some point). Strait/Bort won't turn into NHL players if they spend most of their time in the press box.

I know we're obviously not going to be keeping all of them forever. But even to maximize their trade value (a la Gogo) we need to play them in the NHL and give them a regular shift so that we can see what they can do (don't want to trade a potential future superstar), and other GMs can see enough to give decent value in a trade.

Letang
Martin
Niskanen
Orpik
Despres
Engelland
Strait/Bort

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07-17-2012, 05:34 AM
  #285
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Originally Posted by mr sidney crosby View Post
Paul martin to detroit for Teemu Pulkkinen.
Sign Semin

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Tangradi-Sutter-Tk/Bennett if he's tearing it up by midseason
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Despres-Letang
Orpik-Niskanen
Dumoulin-strait/Engo

Dumoulin seemed nhl ready at camp but thats just prospects he's playing against. And we have enough space to get a cheap defensive defensmen at the deadline.
I would love to get Pulkkinen. I wonder if Martin would do it. I still dont understand why we chose B Rust when Pulkkinen was on the board during that draft year. Rust is a 3rd line sand paper guy we have plenty of them. Would you say with this draft year our goaltending and forward prospects are better?

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07-17-2012, 06:59 AM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Was our D that good, or was our amazing offensive ability (or MAF) hiding/masking our D's issues?

I'm not disputing that Engelland holds value to us. He's a solid 3rd pairing guy who's sound defensively, physical, fights and is on an amazing contract. But we have a few things to consider. We have a TON of D prospects. 3 or 4 of which are NHL ready this year (Strait, Bort, Despres and potentially Dumoulin) - with Morrow and Harrington likely ready the following year (or worse case the year after). We have to start getting these guys that are ready into the lineup so that when others are ready that we can make room. Or we're suddenly going to have to insert multiple rookies at the same time...

If you look at our D (forget the pairings for a min) without a trade (or injuries) there's no way to get more than one of our rookies any real icetime without putting someone into the top 4 (either a rookie or Engelland).

Losing what Engelland brings leaves a hole. But dressing him really limits DB's options when it comes to trying to limit a rookies icetime (assuming we only dress 6). I wouldn't be opposed to moving Engelland & another D (Niskanen/Martin) for someone like Gleason/Allen/Reghr/Hejda, etc who has some of Engelland's bite, but is a top 4D (and gets paid like it). As it would free up a spot on the 3rd pairing for a young guy to get a shot.

It also causes a bottle neck in the sense that it delays Dumoulin (not that that's a bad thing), but in delaying 1 prospect, that could further delay other prospects (only so many spots, etc) causing a ripple effect all the way down the chain. For these players to develop they need NHL icetime (at some point). Strait/Bort won't turn into NHL players if they spend most of their time in the press box.

I know we're obviously not going to be keeping all of them forever. But even to maximize their trade value (a la Gogo) we need to play them in the NHL and give them a regular shift so that we can see what they can do (don't want to trade a potential future superstar), and other GMs can see enough to give decent value in a trade.

Letang
Martin
Niskanen
Orpik
Despres
Engelland
Strait/Bort
IMO when you have to score 8 to beat the Jets late in the season, the fire power up front is masking the poor D play. If you look back the D was awful all year and padded their numbers against the bottom feeders in the league.

Strit/Bort won't develop in the pressbox, but there is no harm in letting Engelland sit some while those guys play, you already know the type of opponent you need his skillset for, and he is what he is.

If Despres is really going to get a look next to LeTang then Orpik for Stewart would be my choice.

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07-17-2012, 07:14 AM
  #287
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I personally think people underrate Strait and Bortuzzo. They will have growing pains. They are 23, but they have real NHL potential. These aren't just some bottom pairing stop gaps. These guys can play hockey.

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07-17-2012, 07:27 AM
  #288
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I personally think people underrate Strait and Bortuzzo. They will have growing pains. They are 23, but they have real NHL potential. These aren't just some bottom pairing stop gaps. These guys can play hockey.
Don't mind the growing pains at all, but I sure as heck would like to see them make a serious run before they went with the young guys full tilt.

If we went with more than one rookie I wouldn't expect this team to compete (Seriously) for a season or two after this one coming up.

Chewing away at prime years of the best two players without making a serious run first seems like a waste. But we'll see how things progress.

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07-17-2012, 07:28 AM
  #289
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Originally Posted by mr sidney crosby View Post
Paul martin to detroit for Teemu Pulkkinen.
Sign Semin

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Tangradi-Sutter-Tk/Bennett if he's tearing it up by midseason
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Dumoulin-strait/Engo

Dumoulin seemed nhl ready at camp but thats just prospects he's playing against. And we have enough space to get a cheap defensive defensmen at the deadline.
I really miss Pascal Dupuis there . And I like getting younger, but this is a bit too much.

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07-17-2012, 07:37 AM
  #290
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After dealing Zyb, there is no way we are - or should - be dealing Martin before we see how the youngsters hold up. It would be crazy.

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07-17-2012, 07:48 AM
  #291
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Don't mind the growing pains at all, but I sure as heck would like to see them make a serious run before they went with the young guys full tilt.

If we went with more than one rookie I wouldn't expect this team to compete (Seriously) for a season or two after this one coming up.

Chewing away at prime years of the best two players without making a serious run first seems like a waste. But we'll see how things progress.
Tell that to Philly.

If guys are NHL ready, like many believe Strait and Bortuzzo are, there's shouldn't be a big off from them and guys in the top 4 for long.

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07-17-2012, 07:48 AM
  #292
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After dealing Zyb, there is no way we are - or should - be dealing Martin before we see how the youngsters hold up. It would be crazy.
Yeah I would not be in favor of dealing any of the veteran D unless it was in a package to bring in better D.

Getting a wing for Sid would be nice but they will score plenty even if they don't.

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07-17-2012, 08:00 AM
  #293
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Tell that to Philly.

If guys are NHL ready, like many believe Strait and Bortuzzo are, there's shouldn't be a big off from them and guys in the top 4 for long.
ya i agree, just because they are rookies doesn't mean they will be bad, and honestly if Strait and Bort weren't playing well during the season we'd probably bring someone up or make a trade. Shero wants the team to be a contender every year

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07-17-2012, 08:01 AM
  #294
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I would love to get Pulkkinen. I wonder if Martin would do it. I still dont understand why we chose B Rust when Pulkkinen was on the board during that draft year. Rust is a 3rd line sand paper guy we have plenty of them. Would you say with this draft year our goaltending and forward prospects are better?
That draft was depressive. Kühnhackl was nice pick there at 4th and Agostino at 5th of course, but it's too bad that we took someone like Rust. Just pure stupidity and I have a feeling that we don't have enough euro scouts or maybe they aren't visiting or watching Finnish league that much. But it's also weird that many other teams passed him also so...

EDIT: Oh, I get it! Yes, because of his size (5'11").

Detroit isn't giving "Pulu" away. Not for Martin IMO. They draft so well and they are good at using those lower picks right. We can forget Pulkkinen.


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07-17-2012, 08:09 AM
  #295
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Does anybody get the feeling that once the Doan situation is resolved (gut feeling tells me that he won't sign with the Penguins), Shero (or other GMs) may be waiting to see how the arbitrations turn-out before swinging a deal. For example, the arbitration cases for Kulemin, Oshie, or possibly even Mark Fistric (which is the type of D Shero covets) may open up the possibility for a deal with their respective teams.

If Kulemin gets paid, Burke may be inclined to move him...

If Fistric gets paid, Jow N. may also be inclined to move him. I know that we have a plethora of D but Shero may be looking to dump Martin for a winger and replace him with Fistric to add toughness to the blueline.

Lastly, if Oshie gets paid, perhaps it may re-kindle the idea of moving a player of less priority like Chris Stewart to shore up their D.

What do you guys think?

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07-17-2012, 08:11 AM
  #296
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Tell that to Philly.

If guys are NHL ready, like many believe Strait and Bortuzzo are, there's shouldn't be a big off from them and guys in the top 4 for long.
Except they have afforded themselves the likes of Dumoulin, Despres, Morrow will make them redundant even faster. Especially Strait.

I'd easily part ways with either for a veteran stop gap for a push this season in hopes that one or all three make the team the fallowing season. Despres looks to make the team this season by how they have been talking so there's one down right off the bat.

Lovejoy needs dealt with too.

We can't keep them all, but they can keep the better of the lot.

Boy...then there's Pouliot, Maata, Harrington meaning those guys will have very short Penguin careers.

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07-17-2012, 08:18 AM
  #297
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Does anybody get the feeling that once the Doan situation is resolved (gut feeling tells me that he won't sign with the Penguins), Shero (or other GMs) may be waiting to see how the arbitrations turn-out before swinging a deal. For example, the arbitration cases for Kulemin, Oshie, or possibly even Mark Fistric (which is the type of D Shero covets) may open up the possibility for a deal with their respective teams.

If Kulemin gets paid, Burke may be inclined to move him...

If Fistric gets paid, Jow N. may also be inclined to move him. I know that we have a plethora of D but Shero may be looking to dump Martin for a winger and replace him with Fistric to add toughness to the blueline.

Lastly, if Oshie gets paid, perhaps it may re-kindle the idea of moving a player of less priority like Chris Stewart to shore up their D.

What do you guys think?
I like it.

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07-17-2012, 08:21 AM
  #298
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I personally think people underrate Strait and Bortuzzo. They will have growing pains. They are 23, but they have real NHL potential. These aren't just some bottom pairing stop gaps. These guys can play hockey.
as I've been saying, the "problem" is that Despres looks like he can already play hockey better than Strait or Bortuzzo. So unless we want to go with multiple rookies in the starting 6, they are going to have a tough time. And even then, I'm not convinced they will be better NHL players than Dumoulin or Morrow for very long either; if they're even better right now.

It should be an interesting camp.

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07-17-2012, 08:21 AM
  #299
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Except they have afforded themselves the likes of Dumoulin, Despres, Morrow will make them redundant even faster. Especially Strait.

I'd easily part ways with either for a veteran stop gap for a push this season in hopes that one or all three make the team the fallowing season. Despres looks to make the team this season by how they have been talking so there's one down right off the bat.

Lovejoy needs dealt with too.

We can't keep them all, but they can keep the better of the lot.

Boy...then there's Pouliot, Maata, Harrington meaning those guys will have very short Penguin careers.
I'm not saying that guys won't be dealt. That'd be naive, but to be honest, I could see Bortuzzo and Strait both being here until guys like Pouliot and Maatta are ready. I think Ray will be using veteran defensemen as trade bait as younger defensemen prove capable, which I really don't think will take too terribly long.

And them having potential short tenures with the Pens doesn't mean they shouldn't be on the team in the immediate future until other guys are ready. And whose to say that when the dust settles, Bortuzzo and Strait aren't better options than guys like Harrington? Strait was a pretty decorated WJC player too.


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07-17-2012, 08:21 AM
  #300
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What about Semin and maybe Kostitsyn to Pit?

Wouldn´t that be a good line combo?

Semin Malkin Kostitsyn

Semin showed what he can do when healthy and motivated!
I would rather have Radulov than Kostsitsyn but he signed allready a KHL contract!

What are your thoughts guys?

Barney Stinson76 is offline  
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