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Old
08-23-2012, 02:32 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Barnaby View Post
Yea, Girardi, the guy who made an All Star team despite being a mostly defensive defenseman... Yea, he sucks...
Not to mention he finished 6th in the Norris Trophy voting. What a bum!

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08-23-2012, 03:47 PM
  #127
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I can't believe the conversations I am reading right now. "Girardi is only good because McD and Staal make him look good." "Trade Staal for a piece of paper."

Is this guy(s) on bath salts?

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08-23-2012, 03:49 PM
  #128
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Anyone who suggests moving any of our top 4 dmen, must indeed be on bath salts. I can't even fathom the idea of trading any of them, at least with Sauer still out.

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08-23-2012, 03:52 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Kreiders Underwear View Post
Anyone who suggests moving any of our top 4 dmen, must indeed be on bath salts. I can't even fathom the idea of trading any of them, at least with Sauer still out.
I WILL EAT YOUR FACE OFF.

had to.

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08-23-2012, 04:32 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Rangers get bonned....HARD

Lose a 2nd line center with no replacement.

Lose an elite level shut down defenceman capable of 25+ points every year

get a 3rd paring defenceman in Gleason and a defenceman that still has alot of developing to do.

Larsson can be a very veyr good defenceman. Don't think he is there yet and not a player I am willing to part with Stepan and Staal for.

Defence is not the area you should be looking to improve upon.
Thanks for sharing!

This proposal is predicated on belief Larsson, both immediate and potential as potential to actual McD, so have to give to get.

If you don't believe Larsson is that big a deal, fair enough.

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08-23-2012, 04:49 PM
  #131
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aside from the fact that larsson would have been a 3rd pairing player for the rangers this season, and could easily not pan out to be the top pairing guy you (and a lot of people, including me) believe he will be, the devils would never trade their top defensive prospect within the division so even IF this trade made sense for the rangers (it doesn't) it will never happen.

saying that trading stepan for no replacement is okay because of JT miller is ABSURD. you do realize this is a kid with 0 NHL experience, and a total of 1 point in 8 AHL games, right? i expect him to be a good player, but not a 2nd line center in the next 2-3 years at least. stepan is our best option at center right now after richards and that TERRIFIES me because like you, i don't think stepan is anything special. if anything, i'm looking to trade for another big center, not another winger. as it is we'll either have kreider or hagelin playing on the 3rd line with brian boyle (oh god...) centering the 3rd line.

back to that evander kane trade..like i said, we already have a ton of top 6 wing talent. aside from the fact that you're not addressing a NEED with this trade (the rangers needs are undoubtedly right handed defense and center), you're trading 1 player who is unarguably elite (staal), 1 player who is an all-star and you could make a case he's an elite defenseman (girardi) and a serviceable young center in stepan for ONE borderline elite player. if the rangers are totally healthy, kane is the 3rd best winger on the team, maybe 4th depending on how kreider plays this year. we also don't know how kane will handle new york. these are all reasons this trade is insane. you now have stralman as a TOP PAIRING DEFENSEMAN! do you know how scary that is?! could you imagine watching stralman play 30 minutes a night in the playoffs?!

our offense isn't that horrendous that you need to go out and grab a guy like evander kane. we already addressed that with rick nash. a healthy nash and gaborik is good for anywhere between 70 and 90 (setting a high ceiling) goals on a team that was 13th in goals WITHOUT rick nash! people need to stop talking about how bad the offense is when it was in the top half of the league with the best defense in the league. you don't become a +39 team (6th in the league) with a horrendous offense.

also don't forget evander kane has concussion issues, and there's questions about his character...

the larsson trade is admittedly not the worst thing i've ever read, but man that kane trade is terrible. it really is man. i don't know how you could watch hockey and think these moves would make the rangers better. these are trades that make you look like the only hockey you see is on xbox

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08-23-2012, 07:26 PM
  #132
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also the bigger issue here is do either of those trades make the rangers better RIGHT NOW? they were 2 games from the stanley cup finals, and losing two of our three best defensemen on a team that's based around defense for a guy who isn't a transcendent offensive talent (he's not malkin...) just seems like a step back. maybe you're thinking it makes the rangers better long term (it doesn't) but that's not important for an organization on the verge of winning NOW.

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08-23-2012, 07:29 PM
  #133
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bernmeister, I support your trades 100%. This is how true contenders are built.

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Old
08-23-2012, 10:22 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by petejudge View Post
also the bigger issue here is do either of those trades make the rangers better RIGHT NOW? they were 2 games from the stanley cup finals, and losing two of our three best defensemen on a team that's based around defense for a guy who isn't a transcendent offensive talent (he's not malkin...) just seems like a step back. maybe you're thinking it makes the rangers better long term (it doesn't) but that's not important for an organization on the verge of winning NOW.
If either of these deals make NYR better in the near term, that's good enough. IMO. We will obviously have to do more moves after either scenario, but I consider either the Kane trade or the three way to both lead to improvement, with further moves to fine tune the imbalances do-able. For example, Gleason is a 2nd pair guy who is a 3rd pair on our D corps. Several teams would like him. We can probably translate him into a decent C if we need such depth.

We are a very very good team, cofavorites at best legit contenders at worst.

But we are NOT "on the verge of winning NOW". To justify that posture, we would have to either have clearly dominated, or at least be able to project on paper, that we can now dominate. And to truly dominate, a team should be balanced.

We are not, in all honesty, able to make the claim we can certainly dominate, and we are not balanced either. We are improved, but we need at least one more difference maker on offense.

In addition to reigning champs LAK, whoever emerges, if anyone else, (like Canucks) in the SCF needs be respected, just because of what can happen in a short series. As to our conference, I give us at present 50-50 shot vs. the Pens; injury will obviously be a factor, but the hot hand should take it, and that could go either way.

Forgive me for being honest. Don't shoot the messenger.
I continue to wish us the best.
I continue to consider how we prepare for correcting our problems.

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08-23-2012, 11:57 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by petejudge View Post
...
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Originally Posted by petejudge View Post
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aside from the fact that larsson would have been a 3rd pairing player for the rangers this season,
quote Ms. Devito, My Cousin Vinny: are you sure?
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and could easily not pan out to be the top pairing guy you (and a lot of people, including me) believe he will be,
Do not agree him not panning out is so easily or likely to happen. Not saying we can jump the gun, but there is a high likelihood of him winding up top pair.

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the devils would never trade their top defensive prospect within the division so even IF this trade made sense for the rangers (it doesn't) it will never happen.
Normally, yes.
But we assume an exception to the rule because NJ needs the $$$. I am not saying if that premise is true they have no other options, just that this is enough of an appealing option they seriously consider and do it if no better option is apparent.
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saying that trading stepan for no replacement is okay because of JT miller is ABSURD. you do realize this is a kid with 0 NHL experience, and a total of 1 point in 8 AHL games, right? i expect him to be a good player, but not a 2nd line center in the next 2-3 years at least. stepan is our best option at center right now after richards and that TERRIFIES me because like you, i don't think stepan is anything special. if anything, i'm looking to trade for another big center, not another winger. as it is we'll either have kreider or hagelin playing on the 3rd line with brian boyle (oh god...) centering the 3rd line.
Just cause Stepan is nothing special does not mean we give him away for bupkus. But we do listen to solid offers.
You are not likely to get a bigger, better C for a smaller C, unless you add, and that assumes the team(s) involved want a lesser C back. But that's one approach. Another is you improve the quality of players you get, and then when a better C comes along, you may have options because you can offer from a surplus of premium talent [to the extent you can live with the price you pay].

Again, Miller cuts the mustard or not. Miller is not Kreider, I am not going out on a limb with him to the same extent. However, I believe he definitely makes the team this year. BOOK IT, I SAID IT. There is a ? as to whether he makes it out of camp or later. When he makes it, his speed entitles him to pair with compatible Hags/Kreider-Cally. There would be an exception to this IF we were going to play Kreider at C with Hagelin on LW and Callahan at RW. However, Kreider will not go to C 1) only after he masters LW; and 2) not while Torts system is in place, except as a contingency in case of injury.

Unless there is another acquisition with tons of speed to fit our second line (and even then, you hope the best competition will prevail) Miller will earn his spot and it will be with what is our 2nd line.

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back to that evander kane trade..like i said, we already have a ton of top 6 wing talent.
More does not hurt. In fact, it strengthens our 3rd line. Like I said, first line, we see the talent, second line, s/speed, also dominates. third line, with size and strength, also dominates. Three dominant lines. 1 tenacious checking line. That's a better ticket.

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aside from the fact that you're not addressing a NEED with this trade (the rangers needs are undoubtedly right handed defense and center), you're trading 1 player who is unarguably elite (staal), 1 player who is an all-star and you could make a case he's an elite defenseman (girardi) and a serviceable young center in stepan for ONE borderline elite player.
The operative word is elite. I don't hold our top pair quite to that value. I consider Staal the best shutdown D in the league. That makes him borderline pre-elite. He is not on a par with elite, like Weber. Similarly, Girardi is the non-G shotblocking king. But not elite.
They have each other for support, and solid G with Hank. EKane generates a lot of his own offense.
Remember also that part of the premise adding to the cost is teh cooperation of the Jets in delivering Kane with a contract of enough years for the right money. That service is a legit premium to add to the cost.
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if the rangers are totally healthy, kane is the 3rd best winger on the team, maybe 4th depending on how kreider plays this year.
Kane at 3rd not a problem if it helps us dominate all lines. If Nash goes down or plays off wing, Kane could arguably be first line.

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we also don't know how kane will handle new york.
That's not a basis, and therefore a reason, to expect the worst.

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these are all reasons this trade is insane. you now have stralman as a TOP PAIRING DEFENSEMAN! do you know how scary that is?! could you imagine watching stralman play 30 minutes a night in the playoffs?!
Aside from the fact, which is being ignored, that such a dominant roster helps ease the load on the D, we have a whole season to make a deal to improve our D, based on who is available at what cost.

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our offense isn't that horrendous that you need to go out and grab a guy like evander kane.
Sorry but yes it is.

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we already addressed that with rick nash.
That's not enough. Plus we the way we play D now, we are overdue for injuries.

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a healthy nash and gaborik is good for anywhere between 70 and 90 (setting a high ceiling) goals on a team that was 13th in goals WITHOUT rick nash!
Gabby's total should be higher (if we adjust for how many games he plays) but not so much higher, and it is possible but not likely Nash will play unconscious, especially with the Torts system as is.

13th overall is nothing to brag about. We got schooled by Edmonton and others, as I warned/complained about (not Edmonton per se but at risk of snipers). Only the emergence of Hagelin saved our ass.

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people need to stop talking about how bad the offense is when it was in the top half of the league with the best defense in the league. you don't become a +39 team (6th in the league) with a horrendous offense.
Speak the truth, always.
Our offense sucked most of the year. We got better, but we could never dominate better teams, and you see what that got us in the playoffs. Had we put Ottawa down more quickly, we'd have been less exhausted.

6th in the league is not enough when you want to win the conference and be favorite to win the cup.

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also don't forget evander kane has concussion issues, and there's questions about his character...
I'm unaware of those issues.
CM Lundqvist, while I understand not approving of this deal, things if we got Kane for a good price, he'd be worth having, if I have kept this in straight. He says the cost would begin with McD or Kreider at minimum plus. I succeeded without either being surrendered.

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the larsson trade is admittedly not the worst thing i've ever read, but man that kane trade is terrible. it really is man. i don't know how you could watch hockey and think these moves would make the rangers better. these are trades that make you look like the only hockey you see is on xbox
Call em like you seem. Be accurate, be fair, be honest.
Thanks for the post.

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08-24-2012, 07:54 AM
  #136
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Teams would kill to have a horse like Girardi on their blueline. Glad to read some posters here are so willing to move him for garbage.

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08-25-2012, 08:13 AM
  #137
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i don't get how you can say that staal is the best shutdown defenseman in the league and then in the same breath say that he's not elite. you and i are both in agreement that he is the best player at doing what he does, but you somehow don't see that as being elite? i don't get it.

i'm not saying that adding another top 6 winger to the team is a bad thing, the problem is that there aren't enough centers to go around. it's about what you lose to bring in something that isn't a need. this team NEEDS another center, and badly, so why would you go ahead and trade our 2nd best center? we're not getting any better at that position and unless you're willing to trade someone like hagelin, kreider, or gaborik for another high-end center that position is going to be a huge issue. look at teams that have been good over the last few years, center is the key position for them. pittsburgh has been able to have enormous success because they have the 2 best centers in the world. if you have a good core of centers, i think you can build your offense out from that.

adam larsson would have been a 3rd pairing guy for the rangers at best this season. i AM sure of that. he would have to beat out either girardi or stralman to make it above the bottom pairing and i don't think that's a possibility. larsson and stralman had the same exact numbers as far as points go, except larsson was a -7 and stralman was a +9. if i'm a coach i'm choosing the veteran who plays better in his own end at this point in his career. i'm judging that by the eye test too. there's a good reason why larsson was a healthy scratch through almost the entire playoffs for the devils. aside from stralman, torts also liked the added toughness bickel brought, so you better believe that bickel would get some starts in there over larsson

now going forward i fully believe larsson could be a top pairing guy, but your idea that the rangers can't win now is unbelievable. this is a team that was one win away from a president's trophy, and 2 wins from the stanley cup finals. this is a team that DID dominate most of the league. the rangers were 6-0 against a very good flyers team this season. they overcame some crazy road trips to start the season and still put up great numbers.

the rangers were 13th in the league in goals scored. of the 12 teams above them, 3 of them didn't make the playoffs (tampa, toronto, san jose). 6 of them lost in the first round (boston, pittsburgh, vancouver, ottawa, detroit, chicago). 2 of those 3 teams that made it to the 2nd round lost their series' convincingly to teams that were better defensively (nashville, philly). the only team that broke the mold was the devils, who made the finals and lost to a team that reminds me a lot of how the rangers are built.

so clearly if we're going to destroy our defense in favor of more goals scored, there has to be a reason right? our offense being above average with a stellar defense isn't enough? after the devils, every team in the 2nd round of the playoffs was worse offensively than the rangers through the regular season. think about that. EVERY TEAM. EAST AND WEST.

that's why this evander kane trade is absurd. this is a team that already was above average offensively, in a league that has proven that the best offense doesn't win, and has added one of the premier goal scorers to help improve the offense even more. the defense, which was in my opinion the best in the league, has remained the same (except probably is better now with a healthier staal and possibly a healthy sauer at some point), and the goaltending situation has remained the same.


Last edited by petejudge: 08-25-2012 at 11:22 PM.
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Old
08-25-2012, 11:23 AM
  #138
CM Lundqvist
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Originally Posted by petejudge View Post
i don't get how you can say that staal is the best shutdown defenseman in the league and then in the same breath say that he's not elite. you and i are both in agreement that he is the best player at doing what he does, but you somehow don't see that as not being elite? i don't get it.

i'm not saying that adding another top 6 winger to the team is a bad thing, the problem is that there aren't enough centers to go around. it's about what you lose to bring in something that isn't a need. this team NEEDS another center, and badly, so why would you go ahead and trade our 2nd best center? we're not getting any better at that position and unless you're willing to trade someone like hagelin, kreider, or gaborik for another high-end center that position is going to be a huge issue. look at teams that have been good over the last few years, center is the key position for them. pittsburgh has been able to have enormous success because they have the 2 best centers in the world. if you have a good core of centers, i think you can build your offense out from that.

adam larsson would have been a 3rd pairing guy for the rangers at best this season. i AM sure of that. he would have to beat out either girardi or stralman to make it above the bottom pairing and i don't think that's a possibility. larsson and stralman had the same exact numbers as far as points go, except larsson was a -7 and stralman was a +9. if i'm a coach i'm choosing the veteran who plays better in his own end at this point in his career. i'm judging that by the eye test too. there's a good reason why larsson was a healthy scratch through almost the entire playoffs for the devils. aside from stralman, torts also liked the added toughness bickel brought, so you better believe that bickel would get some starts in there over larsson

now going forward i fully believe larsson could be a top pairing guy, but your idea that the rangers can't win now is unbelievable. this is a team that was one win away from a president's trophy, and 2 wins from the stanley cup finals. this is a team that DID dominate most of the league. the rangers were 6-0 against a very good flyers team this season. they overcame some crazy road trips to start the season and still put up great numbers.

the rangers were 13th in the league in goals scored. of the 12 teams above them, 3 of them didn't make the playoffs (tampa, toronto, san jose). 6 of them lost in the first round (boston, pittsburgh, vancouver, ottawa, detroit, chicago). 2 of those 3 teams that made it to the 2nd round lost their series' convincingly to teams that were better defensively (nashville, philly). the only team that broke the mold was the devils, who made the finals and lost to a team that reminds me a lot of how the rangers are built.

so clearly if we're going to destroy our defense in favor of more goals scored, there has to be a reason right? our offense being above average with a stellar defense isn't enough? after the devils, every team in the 2nd round of the playoffs was worse offensively than the rangers through the regular season. think about that. EVERY TEAM. EAST AND WEST.

that's why this evander kane trade is absurd. this is a team that already was above average offensively, in a league that has proven that the best offense doesn't win, and has added one of the premier goal scorers to help improve the offense even more. the defense, which was in my opinion the best in the league, has remained the same (except probably is better now with a healthier staal and possibly a healthy sauer at some point), and the goaltending situation has remained the same.
Great post.

There's no need to add Evander Kane to this team and start subtracting from a defense that's arguably the best in the league right now on paper with a healthy Sauer.

Possible moves...

- Add a 3rd pairing defenseman in the even that Sauer is too much of a health risk to bank on.

- Add Doan/Kostistyn for excess scoring if needed, Hagelin can be moved down into the bottom 6 making the team even more stacked.

- For a cheaper fix to add offense, you can add a bottom-6 player if needed and keep Hagelin or whoever in the top-6.

Evander Kane will cost way too much to acquire and with Nash being brough in, he's not needed. Would we all love to have him? Absolutely, who the hell wouldn't want him on their team?

Bern, my friend, you need to realize that Kane is not a luxury, but an excess that we do not need. That's overkill.

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08-29-2012, 08:10 AM
  #139
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....
Sorry but reply delayed by real world.
Will try to get something in now.

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i don't get how you can say that staal is the best shutdown defenseman in the league and then in the same breath say that he's not elite. you and i are both in agreement that he is the best player at doing what he does, but you somehow don't see that as being elite? i don't get it.
Elite = complete w/superior excellence in at least one area.

On shutdown, Staal is the best in the league, IMO. Most of strength of Chara, much better balance for checking when skating. Marc is not yet established on offense, though he has shown a serious shot on occasion. When he can use that shot like Shea Weber, the only truly elite D, (bordering uber-elite) he will then be truly elite, which is within his potential, but not there yet.

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i'm not saying that adding another top 6 winger to the team is a bad thing, the problem is that there aren't enough centers to go around. it's about what you lose to bring in something that isn't a need. this team NEEDS another center, and badly, so why would you go ahead and trade our 2nd best center?
Key is not C or W, but overall concentration of talent upgrade to someone who can be a difference maker. We already have a difference maker in net, but we need more help elsewhere.

Our scoring was SO pathetic last year, including generally playoffs, that we need to consider every opportunity for a worthwhile sniper. By worthwhile I mean first and foremost a guy who can actually put the puck in the net, but then preferably has no head case issues, and also preferably is a younger building block.

That's obvious in the case of the Kane proposal.
Larssen is suggested ONLY because of the assumed real opportunity given NJ $$$ issues, a door that is not open every day, so you manufacture a deal while you can. But adding Larrsen gives you other options to deal other Ds (besides McDonagh) for that F help.
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we're not getting any better at that position and unless you're willing to trade someone like hagelin, kreider, or gaborik for another high-end center that position is going to be a huge issue. look at teams that have been good over the last few years, center is the key position for them. pittsburgh has been able to have enormous success because they have the 2 best centers in the world. if you have a good core of centers, i think you can build your offense out from that.
Sid and Geno are also world class SNIPERS. Malkin may be the best player in the world, and that is only in much smaller part on his other skills. It is his scoring that makes him so feared (unlike, say, Bobby Orr, who was an incredible scorer, but first and foremost could really, literally, skate circles around people, forwards and backwards, in multiple gears).

I'm not dissing the importance of Cs. I have maintained we need to develop better balance. Ideally that is performance across the board. But at this point, if I get a scoring W, it's all we can do, given that Cs like Stamkos, Malkin, etc are not available.

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adam larsson would have been a 3rd pairing guy for the rangers at best this season. i AM sure of that. he would have to beat out either girardi or stralman to make it above the bottom pairing and i don't think that's a possibility. larsson and stralman had the same exact numbers as far as points go, except larsson was a -7 and stralman was a +9. if i'm a coach i'm choosing the veteran who plays better in his own end at this point in his career. i'm judging that by the eye test too. there's a good reason why larsson was a healthy scratch through almost the entire playoffs for the devils. aside from stralman, torts also liked the added toughness bickel brought, so you better believe that bickel would get some starts in there over larsson
Larsson is an investment in the future who can contribute seriously now. He's good enough to match up w/either McD or MDZ, so I don't agree he'd be no better than 3rd pair. But yes, he is a half step backward to go 2+ steps forward in an acceptable short term turn around. This guy could have been the top overall pick.
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now going forward i fully believe larsson could be a top pairing guy, but your idea that the rangers can't win now is unbelievable. this is a team that was one win away from a president's trophy, and 2 wins from the stanley cup finals. this is a team that DID dominate most of the league. the rangers were 6-0 against a very good flyers team this season. they overcame some crazy road trips to start the season and still put up great numbers.
We could win now, but we would need to be both lucky and better than we were. And we are due for some cracked ankles the way Torts has the D diving all the time. We need balance and improvement, particularly as to scoring.

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the rangers were 13th in the league in goals scored. of the 12 teams above them, 3 of them didn't make the playoffs (tampa, toronto, san jose). 6 of them lost in the first round (boston, pittsburgh, vancouver, ottawa, detroit, chicago). 2 of those 3 teams that made it to the 2nd round lost their series' convincingly to teams that were better defensively (nashville, philly). the only team that broke the mold was the devils, who made the finals and lost to a team that reminds me a lot of how the rangers are built.
Some proper occasion w/more time, loved to talk further over beer or whatever. Bottom lining it, we barely got by Ottawa, DC was not a cakewalk, and we couldn't finish NJ, not because of our G, not because of our D, but because we did not have enough scoring.

Adding Nash is not enough. Full term Kreider and Hagelin helps. Thomas is an x factor, I'm not holding my breath. Fast looks real. St. Croix is a maybe. We have others in the pipeline, mostly Ds including this year's great draft.

More moves need now, for now, but to also mesh with tomorrow.

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so clearly if we're going to destroy our defense in favor of more goals scored, there has to be a reason right? our offense being above average with a stellar defense isn't enough? after the devils, every team in the 2nd round of the playoffs was worse offensively than the rangers through the regular season. think about that. EVERY TEAM. EAST AND WEST.
Stand by what I said above.
Need more offense, even at cost of some D.
Need balance.

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that's why this evander kane trade is absurd. this is a team that already was above average offensively, in a league that has proven that the best offense doesn't win, and has added one of the premier goal scorers to help improve the offense even more. the defense, which was in my opinion the best in the league, has remained the same (except probably is better now with a healthier staal and possibly a healthy sauer at some point), and the goaltending situation has remained the same.
Again, not offense only. Balance.
We are D heavy now. We need snipers. But not one dimensional guys who can't do anything else. Kane is one guy who is a complete physical package who has the hard work ethic who got results without a lot of help.

Now while I think you not only need give to get, you need to overpay a premium for certain players. I appreciate the feedback, and now that Kane has rejected a deal from the Jets, I will attempt to restructure a less expensive offer.

Best....

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08-30-2012, 09:56 AM
  #140
petejudge
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Sorry but reply delayed by real world.
Will try to get something in now.


Elite = complete w/superior excellence in at least one area.

On shutdown, Staal is the best in the league, IMO. Most of strength of Chara, much better balance for checking when skating. Marc is not yet established on offense, though he has shown a serious shot on occasion. When he can use that shot like Shea Weber, the only truly elite D, (bordering uber-elite) he will then be truly elite, which is within his potential, but not there yet.
so by your standards, there is one elite defenseman in the NHL? if you want to set your standards to an absurd level then fine, i'll agree Staal isn't as good of a player as Weber. in my eyes there's more than one elite player though.
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Key is not C or W, but overall concentration of talent upgrade to someone who can be a difference maker. We already have a difference maker in net, but we need more help elsewhere.
this trade sends two proven difference makers, and a 3rd year growing player with all the potential to be a difference maker, to winnipeg in exchange for one difference maker.

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Our scoring was SO pathetic last year, including generally playoffs, that we need to consider every opportunity for a worthwhile sniper. By worthwhile I mean first and foremost a guy who can actually put the puck in the net, but then preferably has no head case issues, and also preferably is a younger building block.
we did, his name's Rick Nash and we just traded away a lot of important parts for him.
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That's obvious in the case of the Kane proposal.
Larssen is suggested ONLY because of the assumed real opportunity given NJ $$$ issues, a door that is not open every day, so you manufacture a deal while you can. But adding Larrsen gives you other options to deal other Ds (besides McDonagh) for that F help.
it absolutely does not give you any other options to deal defensemen. it depletes your defensive core to the point where your 3rd pairing is even worse than before.

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Sid and Geno are also world class SNIPERS. Malkin may be the best player in the world, and that is only in much smaller part on his other skills. It is his scoring that makes him so feared (unlike, say, Bobby Orr, who was an incredible scorer, but first and foremost could really, literally, skate circles around people, forwards and backwards, in multiple gears).
Gaborik and Nash are also world class snipers. however, Malkin and Crosby are the two best players in the game. if they were wingers, their skills would be less important to their team. sniping is important but possession is more important. world class centers allow you to always have possession.
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I'm not dissing the importance of Cs. I have maintained we need to develop better balance. Ideally that is performance across the board. But at this point, if I get a scoring W, it's all we can do, given that Cs like Stamkos, Malkin, etc are not available.
where our balance is an issue is our 3rd line, and the entire issue is that we don't have a suitable center.

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Larsson is an investment in the future who can contribute seriously now. He's good enough to match up w/either McD or MDZ, so I don't agree he'd be no better than 3rd pair. But yes, he is a half step backward to go 2+ steps forward in an acceptable short term turn around. This guy could have been the top overall pick.
i already explained to you how there were two right handed defensemen that performed better than Larsson this season for the Rangers, hence why he would be a 3rd pairing player. you're right, he's a good investment for the future, but absolutely not to overpay for.

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We could win now, but we would need to be both lucky and better than we were. And we are due for some cracked ankles the way Torts has the D diving all the time. We need balance and improvement, particularly as to scoring.
and one blocked shot gone wrong, or hit on Kane at the wrong angle, and he's a concussion problem all over again. keeping the team deep is how you avoid an injury becoming crippling. with your trade, if Kane or Kreider goes down our team is ruined without that extra scoring threat and a depleted defense.

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Some proper occasion w/more time, loved to talk further over beer or whatever. Bottom lining it, we barely got by Ottawa, DC was not a cakewalk, and we couldn't finish NJ, not because of our G, not because of our D, but because we did not have enough scoring.
Ottawa and Washington were the two worst matchups for the Rangers because of their style of play. we weren't prepared for the quickness of Ottawa, and DC was blocking shots and goaltending at an incredible rate. Ottawa is a very good team and i predicted them winning the division this year. DC will take a step back.

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Adding Nash is not enough. Full term Kreider and Hagelin helps. Thomas is an x factor, I'm not holding my breath. Fast looks real. St. Croix is a maybe. We have others in the pipeline, mostly Ds including this year's great draft.

More moves need now, for now, but to also mesh with tomorrow.
i know the focus of this point isn't on the prospects, but Thomas will absolutely not be a factor for the Rangers, St Croix is a longshot. Yogan and Fast are the top two guys i see getting minutes, with JT Miller possibly towards the middle of the year, though i think he spends this full season in CT. also look out for Shane McColgan next year.

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Stand by what I said above.
Need more offense, even at cost of some D.
Need balance.
some D i would agree with. that's why we traded Erixon, Dubinsky, and Anisimov for Nash. Gave up some D for some offense.

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Again, not offense only. Balance.
We are D heavy now. We need snipers. But not one dimensional guys who can't do anything else. Kane is one guy who is a complete physical package who has the hard work ethic who got results without a lot of help.

Now while I think you not only need give to get, you need to overpay a premium for certain players. I appreciate the feedback, and now that Kane has rejected a deal from the Jets, I will attempt to restructure a less expensive offer.

Best....
i can't complain about the rangers getting Evander Kane, he's one of my favorite players in the league. i also understand overpaying for premium players. however, this is gross overpayment. it's too much. the season hasn't started yet, so we really don't know what Nash is going to add to the team. the issue here is that we were so close to making the finals, and added a guy who addresses our offensive needs. the teams that were offensive-minded were all knocked out of the playoffs early. a defense with Stralman on the top pairing is not a very good defense. with Kane our offense increases greatly but the cost is turning our defense from elite to below average.

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09-01-2012, 10:11 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by petejudge View Post
...
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so by your standards, there is one elite defenseman in the NHL? if you want to set your standards to an absurd level then fine, i'll agree Staal isn't as good of a player as Weber. in my eyes there's more than one elite player though.
As to D, Weber is the OVERALL best. Depending upon what curve you do or do not set with the competition, he is either uber-elite with Doughty, Chara etc elite, or he is elite, with those guys the top of the superior/very good runners up.

Staal is not the best overall, he is the best exclusively as to shutdown, IMO.

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this trade sends two proven difference makers, and a 3rd year growing player with all the potential to be a difference maker, to winnipeg in exchange for one difference maker.
/accurate, except they are not equal difference makers.

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we did, his name's Rick Nash and we just traded away a lot of important parts for him.
That we got one down does not mean we do not have more to go. I said every possible opportunity and with Fast + at least a year away, even with others developing, we need at least one more.

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it absolutely does not give you any other options to deal defensemen. it depletes your defensive core to the point where your 3rd pairing is even worse than before.
I agree we are weaker up top. The improvements to offense = a net plus. I expect Sather to do another Stralman, and we can make do because there are less demands upon our D.

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Gaborik and Nash are also world class snipers. however, Malkin and Crosby are the two best players in the game. if they were wingers, their skills would be less important to their team. sniping is important but possession is more important. world class centers allow you to always have possession.
No body is THAT brilliant, individually, at keep away. Teams that dominate have ample snipers, maybe not each one world class, but enough ample finishers that usually follow through well enough to finish the job. Gaborik + Nash not enough, esp. w/Gabs healing.

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where our balance is an issue is our 3rd line, and the entire issue is that we don't have a suitable center.
I am open to improving Boyle.
I see the much faster JT Miller adequately + taking his spot on the 2nd.

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i already explained to you how there were two right handed defensemen that performed better than Larsson this season for the Rangers, hence why he would be a 3rd pairing player. you're right, he's a good investment for the future, but absolutely not to overpay for.
I am open to discussion on how much less overpayment would still be successful. We agree, as to principle, overpayment you can live with for a special acquisition is ok; too much beyond that by definition of what one can live with. Also, Larsson is some one I see as rising to top pair in short order.

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and one blocked shot gone wrong, or hit on Kane at the wrong angle, and he's a concussion problem all over again. keeping the team deep is how you avoid an injury becoming crippling. with your trade, if Kane or Kreider goes down our team is ruined without that extra scoring threat and a depleted defense.
Stepan and Ds are not big scorers, so we are already down on offense regardless of injuries to Kreider, etc.
With improved offense, we can better adapt from Torts system, which we should be doing anyway so as to not press our luck too much, and with three dominating offensive lines and an energetic 4th checking line, our D has it easier, and the whole team does not have to block as many shots.

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Ottawa and Washington were the two worst matchups for the Rangers because of their style of play. we weren't prepared for the quickness of Ottawa, and DC was blocking shots and goaltending at an incredible rate. Ottawa is a very good team and i predicted them winning the division this year. DC will take a step back.
That is why we need more. Preparation and matchups are not unimportant, but key is to have the proverbial horses.

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i know the focus of this point isn't on the prospects, but Thomas will absolutely not be a factor for the Rangers, St Croix is a longshot. Yogan and Fast are the top two guys i see getting minutes, with JT Miller possibly towards the middle of the year, though i think he spends this full season in CT. also look out for Shane McColgan next year.
I am slightly more optimistic about St. Croix and Thomas. McColgan, I hope you're right, not sure I can gauge him that accurately at this point.

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some D i would agree with. that's why we traded Erixon, Dubinsky, and Anisimov for Nash. Gave up some D for some offense.
Not enough.
Plus they really wanted Stepan.
Could have put him in and paid less overall, plus make them take on Redden's salary.
Quote:
i can't complain about the rangers getting Evander Kane, he's one of my favorite players in the league. i also understand overpaying for premium players. however, this is gross overpayment. it's too much. the season hasn't started yet, so we really don't know what Nash is going to add to the team. the issue here is that we were so close to making the finals, and added a guy who addresses our offensive needs. the teams that were offensive-minded were all knocked out of the playoffs early. a defense with Stralman on the top pairing is not a very good defense. with Kane our offense increases greatly but the cost is turning our defense from elite to below average.
I agree it was overpayment to get the job done, don't consider it gross overpayment considering according to my best case scenario, he pre signs long term at numbers we can live with. With chance he'd sign quickly with Jets gone, that changes the parameters.

Will think about a less expensive offer that still gets the job done.

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09-02-2012, 09:52 AM
  #142
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Bernmeister you are flat out high !!! It's a good thing you don't have anything to do with this team because we would be screwed. You are right Stepan is a bum? He was in the Rookie All Star game two years ago, has 105 points in two years in a very defensive role, he is one of our best penalty killers, plays in every situation for Tort's, has never missed a game in his first two years in the NHL, his plus minus is up there with the league leaders, and he is 21 years old. Go out there and see how many 2nd line centers in the NHL had 55 points last year. I think we should trade all our young guys that have put up these numbers. I am sure glad your going back to your 6th grade teacher tomorrow because you should tell her about your story telling. Your really good at that!!!


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09-02-2012, 03:15 PM
  #143
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Reading this thread made me do this more than once.


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09-03-2012, 07:42 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by EsposHounds View Post
Bernmeister you are flat out high !!! It's a good thing you don't have anything to do with this team because we would be screwed. You are right Stepan is a bum? He was in the Rookie All Star game two years ago, has 105 points in two years in a very defensive role, he is one of our best penalty killers, plays in every situation for Tort's, has never missed a game in his first two years in the NHL, his plus minus is up there with the league leaders, and he is 21 years old. Go out there and see how many 2nd line centers in the NHL had 55 points last year. I think we should trade all our young guys that have put up these numbers. I am sure glad your going back to your 6th grade teacher tomorrow because you should tell her about your story telling. Your really good at that!!!
Grow up, my eloquent friend .
We can quibble about the net of Stepan after trying to accurately measure his + [intangibles] and his - [average footspeed at best, got lost a chunk of last year, etc.].

Bottom line is, can you upgrade moving one block of assets for another. Answer that honestly and you realize compared to other guys we have, we're better off trading Stepan IF IF IF IF it is not for the sake of moving him, but towards getting an upgrade.

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09-03-2012, 09:20 AM
  #145
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I think this team is set and especially if there is a lockout meaning Gaborik likely is healthy and even Sauer when the yr actually starts.

in G, Lundqvist, Biron.......lovely
on LD- McD, Staal, DZ.....lovely
on RD- Girardi, Sauer(healthy), Stralman, Bickel.........not bad
LW, Nash, Kreider, Hagelin, Rupp.......me likey
C- Richards, Stepan, Boyle, Halern....BB will be just fine in a 3rd line role
RW- Gaborik, Callahan, Pyatt, Asham........top 2 good. Would like Miller , Thomas to steal a spot during the yr.

Maybe a vet signing for depth/bench but not really needed

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