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Old
07-31-2012, 12:27 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by rahrahguy View Post
I would imagine he makes it as a special teamer at the very least.
Jaegs please help me out here. How does the backbone of one of the nation's best defenses, two years running, drop like Tank did? Size only?

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07-31-2012, 12:36 PM
  #177
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Jaegs please help me out here. How does the backbone of one of the nation's best defenses, two years running, drop like Tank did? Size only?
When I watched Carder play at TCU, I saw glimpses of Zach Thomas: undersized, not great a taking on blocks, limited physical ability, but some of the best linebacking instincts I've ever seen.

Luke Kuechly is the exact same way in some regards, except he's a great at athletic testing. Carder wasn't. Teams could watch Kuechly play, see his combine results, and look at him physically, and envision a dominant linebacker.

Carder wasn't the elite tackling machine that Kuechly is, but he's pretty close. Carder instinctually knows exactly where to be and what to do. The questions were: could he get to where he needed to be, on time, in the NFL; and could he survive the physical pounding in the NFL at his size/body type?

Carder probably dropped because teams were concerned that he'd never be more than a rah-rah type and elite special teamer due to physical limitations.

I think he takes over for Barnett in 2-3 years and never leaves the field.

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07-31-2012, 12:47 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
When I watched Carder play at TCU, I saw glimpses of Zach Thomas: undersized, not great a taking on blocks, limited physical ability, but some of the best linebacking instincts I've ever seen.

Luke Kuechly is the exact same way in some regards, except he's a great at athletic testing. Carder wasn't. Teams could watch Kuechly play, see his combine results, and look at him physically, and envision a dominant linebacker.

Carder wasn't the elite tackling machine that Kuechly is, but he's pretty close. Carder instinctually knows exactly where to be and what to do. The questions were: could he get to where he needed to be, on time, in the NFL; and could he survive the physical pounding in the NFL at his size/body type?

Carder probably dropped because teams were concerned that he'd never be more than a rah-rah type and elite special teamer due to physical limitations.

I think he takes over for Barnett in 2-3 years and never leaves the field.
What about this guy....You know the guy that led FSU in tackles for 3 straight years, not to mention how ridiculously ripped he is...


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07-31-2012, 01:00 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
What about this guy....You know the guy that led FSU in tackles for 3 straight years, not to mention how ridiculously ripped he is...

Ideal 4-3 linebacker, particularly with how Wannstedt likes linebackers to drop into coverage instead of blitz. Heat-seeking missile that gets places ultra-fast and arrives with explosion.

Total opposite of Carder. My question isn't if Bradham can get there or be physical. My question is does Bradham know where to be? I think he's light on instincts.

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07-31-2012, 02:05 PM
  #180
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Just noticed the title change Well played

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Old
07-31-2012, 05:00 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
Pittsburgh, Houston, the Jets, Green Bay, Baltimore, Dallas, Cincinnati, Denver, Kansas City, Washington, New Orleans, San Francisco, and Arizona don't do that.

Most 3-4 or 46 teams don't do that (every team I listed is a 3-4 team or a 46 variant defense).

What you described is what the Giants do. Since they won the Super Bowl, it's "in vogue." It certainly works, but you need a pass rush with JPP, Umenyiora, Tuck, and Kiwanuka to do it. Buffalo is trying to replicate their success with Williams, Williams, Dareus, and Anderson.

Most teams don't have four good defensive ends like the Giants. Therefore, they don't rush 4 and drop 7 as a matter of habit. They mix things up to keep the QB and blocking scheme off balance. Guys like Dom Capers, LeBeau, Gregg Williams, the Ryan brothers, etc. in fact don't rush 4 and drop 7 habitually. They're doing something different almost every down.
The Giants won it twice, and this is a copycat league. You'd be a fool to suggest that a lot of teams don't, or won't, try to copy them. Buffalo, Detroit, and Seattle come to mind so far.

I think if the recent seasons have shown anything its that "mixing it up" is nice and used to work well, but the top QBs are just too smart right now. They were molded in the fires of defensive trickery and bred to defeat the blitz, however well disguised. Defense in general has been victimized of late, but as the Giants have shown, while tricky schemes are antique, the one thing that does still work is the simple numbers game. Get pressure while committing the least possible rushers. You definitely need a critical mass of talent to do that - which just means that there is a limit on the number of good defenses in the NFL this year. We're lucky to have signed the UFAs we did.

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07-31-2012, 05:34 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by SoFFacet View Post
The Giants won it twice, and this is a copycat league. You'd be a fool to suggest that a lot of teams don't, or won't, try to copy them. Buffalo, Detroit, and Seattle come to mind so far.

I think if the recent seasons have shown anything its that "mixing it up" is nice and used to work well, but the top QBs are just too smart right now. They were molded in the fires of defensive trickery and bred to defeat the blitz, however well disguised. Defense in general has been victimized of late, but as the Giants have shown, while tricky schemes are antique, the one thing that does still work is the simple numbers game. Get pressure while committing the least possible rushers. You definitely need a critical mass of talent to do that - which just means that there is a limit on the number of good defenses in the NFL this year. We're lucky to have signed the UFAs we did.
Do you realize what you just wrote isn't based in the reality of the league today?

The Steelers, Packers, and Saints have won recent Super Bowls using complex, pressure defenses. With also-rans like Brett Keisel, Frank Zombo, and Scott Fujita starting.

But let's ditch the complex schemes, which win Super Bowls, in favor of what one team does. And that team happens to have 3 Pro Bowl caliber ends.

Which do you suppose is tougher: running a great scheme that can combine stars and average starters into a good defense, or acquiring three Pro Bowl ends?

Most teams take the former. Like Houston, who brought in a great defensive coordinator, changed schemes away from their best defender, then became elite without him.

Your theory holds no water. If complex, variable defenses can't stop certain QBs, you think a vanilla four man rush can? There's a reason why most teams don't replicate NY. It's too hard to get talent.

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07-31-2012, 08:43 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
Ideal 4-3 linebacker, particularly with how Wannstedt likes linebackers to drop into coverage instead of blitz. Heat-seeking missile that gets places ultra-fast and arrives with explosion.

Total opposite of Carder. My question isn't if Bradham can get there or be physical. My question is does Bradham know where to be? I think he's light on instincts.
Having seen Bradham play in person on several occasions, I agree with all this. With time and experience, I think he will be a very productive every-down starter. He and Carder were phenomenal picks, for different but equally good reasons.

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07-31-2012, 09:24 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
Do you realize what you just wrote isn't based in the reality of the league today?

The Steelers, Packers, and Saints have won recent Super Bowls using complex, pressure defenses. With also-rans like Brett Keisel, Frank Zombo, and Scott Fujita starting.

But let's ditch the complex schemes, which win Super Bowls, in favor of what one team does. And that team happens to have 3 Pro Bowl caliber ends.

Which do you suppose is tougher: running a great scheme that can combine stars and average starters into a good defense, or acquiring three Pro Bowl ends?

Most teams take the former. Like Houston, who brought in a great defensive coordinator, changed schemes away from their best defender, then became elite without him.

Your theory holds no water. If complex, variable defenses can't stop certain QBs, you think a vanilla four man rush can? There's a reason why most teams don't replicate NY. It's too hard to get talent.
None of your arguments are based in reality. The Saints, Packers, and Steelers had great talent at LB. And regardless of how difficult it is, several teams including the Bills are hoarding DL talent. And complex schemes of all shades were just demolished by the optimal offenses last season and even in previous seasons leading up to it.

The reason is that the supposed advantage of being complex and confusing is nullified by the modern top tier QBs which have been bred for the one and only purpose of seeing through the complexity and delivering the perfect strike to the open man. They simply cannot be outsmarted with any reliability. Now even the Giants mix things up occasionally, but its clear the strongest overall defensive strategy right now is to make the strongest play as often as possible - rushing exactly four.

And for the last time, the Giants strategy is a scheme which combines stars and average talent into a good defense. It just so happens that all the average talent needs to be at LB. Which is exactly what we have. This is a good thing, which is what I was saying from the start.

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08-01-2012, 12:22 AM
  #185
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Misread, feel free to ignore

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Old
08-01-2012, 04:51 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by SoFFacet View Post
None of your arguments are based in reality. The Saints, Packers, and Steelers had great talent at LB. And regardless of how difficult it is, several teams including the Bills are hoarding DL talent. And complex schemes of all shades were just demolished by the optimal offenses last season and even in previous seasons leading up to it.

The reason is that the supposed advantage of being complex and confusing is nullified by the modern top tier QBs which have been bred for the one and only purpose of seeing through the complexity and delivering the perfect strike to the open man. They simply cannot be outsmarted with any reliability. Now even the Giants mix things up occasionally, but its clear the strongest overall defensive strategy right now is to make the strongest play as often as possible - rushing exactly four.

And for the last time, the Giants strategy is a scheme which combines stars and average talent into a good defense. It just so happens that all the average talent needs to be at LB. Which is exactly what we have. This is a good thing, which is what I was saying from the start.
If your right, and I'm the one not based in reality, tons of teams should be moving from complex, hybrid schemes to base defenses with lots of defensive line talent. Let's check.

Teams in the past five years that have ditched hybrid schemes to go to a base 4-3:

Buffalo, Cleveland, Philadelphia, NY Giants

Teams in the past five years that have ditched base 4-3 defenses to go to a hybrid, 3-4, or 46:

Buffalo, Indianapolis, Houston, Denver, Kansas City, Washington, Green Bay, Detroit, New Orleans, San Francisco, St. Louis, Arizona

So, NFL head coaches have been four times as likely to change to a hybrid, pressure defense than to something like the 2012 Giants. The guys that have to decide what defense to play agree with me.

You're wrong about the pressure defenses not outsmarting QB's. For Brady, Brees, and Rodgers, it's hard. But it's also about confusing the blocking scheme, not just the QB. For that reason, more teams are playing complex defenses every year. And even the Jets and Steelers confuse Brady now and again.

Only teams with great defensive line talent can even try what NY does. Buffalo is banking on it. But so did Philly last year and see how that turned out. Rushing four in a simple scheme only works if you have elite talent on the line. Very few teams do. It's why you see teams abandoning the Tampa 2. They don't have enough talent.

And that's exactly why not a lot of teams are doing what you suggest they are.

BTW, can't count the 2007 Giants in your argument. They played a 46 variant under Spagnuola with Kiwanuka playing OLB. Fewell changed them to a base 4-3.

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08-01-2012, 01:20 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
If your right, and I'm the one not based in reality, tons of teams should be moving from complex, hybrid schemes to base defenses with lots of defensive line talent. Let's check.

Teams in the past five years that have ditched hybrid schemes to go to a base 4-3:

Buffalo, Cleveland, Philadelphia, NY Giants

Teams in the past five years that have ditched base 4-3 defenses to go to a hybrid, 3-4, or 46:

Buffalo, Indianapolis, Houston, Denver, Kansas City, Washington, Green Bay, Detroit, New Orleans, San Francisco, St. Louis, Arizona

So, NFL head coaches have been four times as likely to change to a hybrid, pressure defense than to something like the 2012 Giants. The guys that have to decide what defense to play agree with me.

You're wrong about the pressure defenses not outsmarting QB's. For Brady, Brees, and Rodgers, it's hard. But it's also about confusing the blocking scheme, not just the QB. For that reason, more teams are playing complex defenses every year. And even the Jets and Steelers confuse Brady now and again.

Only teams with great defensive line talent can even try what NY does. Buffalo is banking on it. But so did Philly last year and see how that turned out. Rushing four in a simple scheme only works if you have elite talent on the line. Very few teams do. It's why you see teams abandoning the Tampa 2. They don't have enough talent.

And that's exactly why not a lot of teams are doing what you suggest they are.

BTW, can't count the 2007 Giants in your argument. They played a 46 variant under Spagnuola with Kiwanuka playing OLB. Fewell changed them to a base 4-3.
I also feel that some coaches (like the Ryans) think they can out smart other teams and try to use hybrid schemes.

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08-01-2012, 02:40 PM
  #188
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This is freaking hilarious.

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08-01-2012, 05:24 PM
  #189
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This is freaking hilarious.
That was great.

Bang bang!

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08-01-2012, 06:34 PM
  #190
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Sounds like Graham and especially Gilmore are impressing in camp.

Anyone whose been there agree?

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08-01-2012, 06:54 PM
  #191
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Habs fan here. I know nothing of the NFL, but I have seen the Bills in Buffalo before (lost 51-17 to Pats lol). Tailgates are fun tho. Anyways, two of my friends are hardcore NFL fans. One cheers for the Jets, the other one for the Dolphins, and they decided that I should be a fan of the Bills, because division and because **** Boston.

So I guess I am a Bills fan. Educate me.

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08-01-2012, 08:55 PM
  #192
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Habs fan here. I know nothing of the NFL, but I have seen the Bills in Buffalo before (lost 51-17 to Pats lol). Tailgates are fun tho. Anyways, two of my friends are hardcore NFL fans. One cheers for the Jets, the other one for the Dolphins, and they decided that I should be a fan of the Bills, because division and because **** Boston.

So I guess I am a Bills fan. Educate me.
Totally legit reason to become a bills fan
Be prepared for disappointment, that's the best advice i can give you as a bills fan. Having no expectations makes any success they have that much better
oh, and if we beat the dolphins, tell your friend who is a dolphins fan that we "squished the fish"

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08-01-2012, 10:14 PM
  #193
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So I've never played fantasy football before and this is the team I drafted: Anyone have any suggestions:

QB Drew Brees
QB Eli Manning
QB Ryan Fitzpatrick

RB Fred Jackson
RB Reggie Bush
RB Michael Bush

WR Steve Johnson
WR Victor Cruz
WR DeSean Jackson
WR Anquan Boldin
WR Mike Williams

TE Rob Gronkowski
TE Coby Fleener

K Stephen Gostkowski

DEF Buffalo Bills

I'm looking at RB as a weakness though I expect Bush and Jackson to have good years.

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08-01-2012, 10:57 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by dma0034 View Post
So I've never played fantasy football before and this is the team I drafted: Anyone have any suggestions:

QB Drew Brees
QB Eli Manning
QB Ryan Fitzpatrick

RB Fred Jackson
RB Reggie Bush
RB Michael Bush

WR Steve Johnson
WR Victor Cruz
WR DeSean Jackson
WR Anquan Boldin
WR Mike Williams

TE Rob Gronkowski
TE Coby Fleener

K Stephen Gostkowski

DEF Buffalo Bills

I'm looking at RB as a weakness though I expect Bush and Jackson to have good years.
RB, the position I consider most important in fantasy football, is your weakest position.

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08-01-2012, 11:14 PM
  #195
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RB, the position I consider most important in fantasy football, is your weakest position.
Yeah I saw that too. After I was done picking Brees and Gronk in the first two rounds all the RBs were taken. I took Freddy and Reggie Bush just hoping they'll have good seasons (Freddy doesn't get hurt and Miami just feeds Bush).

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08-01-2012, 11:36 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by dma0034 View Post
So I've never played fantasy football before and this is the team I drafted: Anyone have any suggestions:

QB Drew Brees
QB Eli Manning
QB Ryan Fitzpatrick

RB Fred Jackson
RB Reggie Bush
RB Michael Bush

WR Steve Johnson
WR Victor Cruz
WR DeSean Jackson
WR Anquan Boldin
WR Mike Williams

TE Rob Gronkowski
TE Coby Fleener

K Stephen Gostkowski

DEF Buffalo Bills

I'm looking at RB as a weakness though I expect Bush and Jackson to have good years.

What positions do you start? Is the scoring standard? Regardless, your team should be pretty competitive if everyone stays healthy though.

There's too much risk in that WR group and definitely not enough depth at RB for my liking though. I don't think you needed to draft anymore QBs or TEs when you already drafted Gronk and Brees with your first two picks either.

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08-01-2012, 11:57 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by OpethianSabre20 View Post
What positions do you start? Is the scoring standard? Regardless, your team should be pretty competitive if everyone stays healthy though.

There's too much risk in that WR group and definitely not enough depth at RB for my liking though. I don't think you needed to draft anymore QBs or TEs when you already drafted Gronk and Brees with your first two picks either.
Literally picked Manning-Williams-Fleener-Fitz as my last 4 picks.

I'll a little surprised you say the WR are risky.

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08-02-2012, 03:51 AM
  #198
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Originally Posted by dma0034 View Post
So I've never played fantasy football before and this is the team I drafted: Anyone have any suggestions:

QB Drew Brees
QB Eli Manning
QB Ryan Fitzpatrick

RB Fred Jackson
RB Reggie Bush
RB Michael Bush

WR Steve Johnson
WR Victor Cruz
WR DeSean Jackson
WR Anquan Boldin
WR Mike Williams

TE Rob Gronkowski
TE Coby Fleener

K Stephen Gostkowski

DEF Buffalo Bills

I'm looking at RB as a weakness though I expect Bush and Jackson to have good years.

Which Mike Williams is that, Tampa Bay or Seattle? The one from Seattle was cut.

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08-02-2012, 05:52 AM
  #199
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Originally Posted by dma0034 View Post
So I've never played fantasy football before and this is the team I drafted: Anyone have any suggestions:

QB Drew Brees
QB Eli Manning
QB Ryan Fitzpatrick

RB Fred Jackson
RB Reggie Bush
RB Michael Bush

WR Steve Johnson
WR Victor Cruz
WR DeSean Jackson
WR Anquan Boldin
WR Mike Williams

TE Rob Gronkowski
TE Coby Fleener

K Stephen Gostkowski

DEF Buffalo Bills

I'm looking at RB as a weakness though I expect Bush and Jackson to have good years.
Sorry to say, your going to be in some real trouble with that team. RB is the meat and potatoes of a fantasy team. You have none. Sure Fred MIGHT get the numbers he had last year but I doubt it. Reggie Bush is just not a good fantasy back, and michael bush isn't either. Unfortunatly, if your RBs aren't good you need Elite WRs, which you also don't have.....there is a reason why all the good RBs were gone so quick.....Your team probably won't make the playoffs...Not trying to sound like a jerk at all about it....just the simple truth. Not a great team at all. Another hint for thr future: Take one less QB, and one less TE, then 2 more RBs. Depth is always important to RBs. Think of it this way. What's more likely? That both DB and EM are hurt or that FJ and RB are hurt? As for TE, you don't really need a backup until you actually need one, which you can grab off of waivers. After the top 6ish, they're all pretty much the same. And also: Friends don't let friends draft D until 3rd to last round at the earliest.

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08-02-2012, 09:02 AM
  #200
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Eli is actually a very good fantasy QB, there's been seasons where I haven't picked a QB until him at the very end, and went deep into the playoffs

I would put Brees on the block and look for a blockbuster deal.

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