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Old
07-17-2012, 12:31 AM
  #101
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Sure LA had a magic run but I don't think teams want to aim for the 8th seed and let the magic fly.
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Presidents Cup Winners - Vancouver 111 pts
- Detroit 102 pts
Missing the Playoffs - Calgary 90 pts

So the wings were 9 pts from winning the Presidents Trophy and 12 from missing the playoffs.

In my opinion a quality product is a team that makes the playoffs, but I guess that's up to everyone to decide for themselves. Personally I think its silly to only consider the Stanley Cup winners quality or to discount a team based on where they were eliminated in the playoffs. They are heavily influenced by match-ups and if you replayed this past post season I doubt you'd get anywhere near the same result. All you need to do to have a shot is make the playoffs. LA is proof of this.

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07-17-2012, 12:34 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
Sure LA had a magic run but I don't think teams want to aim for the 8th seed and let the magic fly.
Who's "aiming" for the 8th seed. Just like you I want the Wings to finish as high as possible, as does management, players and anyone else who is a fan of the team.

The aim is still 1st overall and a Cup, but the GM saying he doesn't think we'll finish first is a far cry from saying he thinks we're a poor team, and it also doesn't mean he doesn't want to finish first.

I think more than anything what I want is the Wings to peak at the right time this year, and for them to stay healthy.

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07-17-2012, 12:40 AM
  #103
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I think using the Kings as some kind of hope that the Wings just need to make the playoffs is beyond delusional. They made the playoffs last year and we didnt even get the usual Johan Franzen eight goals in one game so he tricks us into thinking he is still useful. They were soundly beaten and never stood a chance at winning that series.

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07-17-2012, 12:48 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
I think using the Kings as some kind of hope that the Wings just need to make the playoffs is beyond delusional. They made the playoffs last year and we didnt even get the usual Johan Franzen eight goals in one game so he tricks us into thinking he is still useful. They were soundly beaten and never stood a chance at winning that series.
If you make the playoffs you have a shot at the cup. As an 8 seed the chances aren't great but if you get the right match-ups anything can happen.

If the Wings had fallen to 6th, who is to say they don't beat Phoenix again, avoid the injury to Helm and go into the 2nd round as a team with some momentum?

Delusional to me is expecting Franzen to score 8 goals a game, or thinking he's useless.

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07-17-2012, 12:55 AM
  #105
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Oh I completely agree. I know Holland wants to ice a great team. I know he wants to win cups. What concerns me is the words he spoke and the tone he spoke them in following the Suter misfire.
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Who's "aiming" for the 8th seed. Just like you I want the Wings to finish as high as possible, as does management, players and anyone else who is a fan of the team.

The aim is still 1st overall and a Cup, but the GM saying he doesn't think we'll finish first is a far cry from saying he thinks we're a poor team, and it also doesn't mean he doesn't want to finish first.

I think more than anything what I want is the Wings to peak at the right time this year, and for them to stay healthy.

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07-17-2012, 12:56 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
If you make the playoffs you have a shot at the cup. As an 8 seed the chances aren't great but if you get the right match-ups anything can happen.

If the Wings had fallen to 6th, who is to say they don't beat Phoenix again, avoid the injury to Helm and go into the 2nd round as a team with some momentum?

Delusional to me is expecting Franzen to score 8 goals a game, or thinking he's useless.
The what IF Stanley Cup playoffs only has winners and no losers. The Wings reaped what they sowed last year by losing to garbage teams that they should have beat.

The Kings are a very young team with great depth and an elite goalie to help out a decent/above average defensive core.

Wings do not have an elite defense and their core of Z and Datsyuk is on the wrong side of 30. Let's not forget that Kenny got some sweet top six upgrade's this year by signing Samuelsson for two years.

Wings depth consists of Darren Helm. Once you lose him you realize how worthless the Wings bottom six is.

Using the Kings as an example on why the Wings can contend is foolish and setting you up so your liver hates you by the end of April.

Wings dont even have cap space as an advantage since the Kings have 10 million available compared to Detroit's 15 million. That's the scary part right there.

Wings will be a better than mediocre team next year. 6-8th seed with no hope of winning the cup. That's not bad for rebuilding and i am OK with that. Not much Kenny can do anymore now that all the quality FA's are gone or wont be signed by the Wings for whatever reason (Semin) and apparently trading roster player's is illegal in Detroit. I will watch the team and cheer for them and hope they entertain me. That's all i can ask of this team next season.


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07-17-2012, 01:00 AM
  #107
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One could argue that it is actually smaller than ever before. Presumably with parity 6 of the teams they beat were equally as good as they were and could have just as easily won those 6 games.
No, because it's not absolute parity. Some posters talk about how games or playoff series are coin flips, but that's not true. It's not that extreme. Plus, that's not the context in which we were discussing big or small margins. We were talking about how much a team would move in teh standings based on 6 games. 6 games is a huge margin because of how bunched up everyone is in the standings nowadays. In the past, a 6-game swing might move you up or down two or three seeds. Now, it could take you from the 2-seed to out of the playoffs entirely, or vice versa.

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07-17-2012, 01:01 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
I think using the Kings as some kind of hope that the Wings just need to make the playoffs is beyond delusional.
That's parity. It takes some fans longer than others to realize the true effects of parity. You'll get there eventually

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07-17-2012, 01:03 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
The what IF Stanley Cup playoffs only has winners and no losers. The Wings reaped what they sowed last year by losing to garbage teams that they should have beat.

The Kings are a very young team with great depth and an elite goalie to help out a decent/above average defensive core.

Wings do not have an elite defense and their core of Z and Datsyuk is on the wrong side of 30. Let's not forget that Kenny got some sweet top six upgrade's this year by signing Samuelsson for two years.

Wings depth consists of Darren Helm. Once you lose him you realize how worthless the Wings bottom six is.

Using the Kings as an example on why the Wings can contend is foolish and setting you up so your liver hates you by the end of April.

Wings dont even have cap space as an advantage since the Kings have 10 million available compared to Detroit's 15 million. That's the scary part right there.
The thing people don't understand about the Kings is they underperformed prior to the coaching change. Dean Lombardi took a page out of Lou Lamoriello's playbook and changing coaches really pushed all the right buttons. Add in the trade for Jeff Carter and they hit on all cylinders.

Val Filppula is the one forward we have who is poised to continue to break out. We've seen the best from Z and Pavs and if Datsyuk doesn't get an upgrade on wing he'll never eclipse his previous scoring totals.

Get young, give your prospects a shot to see what they've got rather than Kindl-ing them. If we get lucky and a few guys bust out you can use your cap space to fill the necessary holes and become a contender.

Shane Doan and Alexander Semin are not the answers. We struck right the **** out on free agency, time to go with plan B and give our prospects a shot and fill the obvious holes via trade if we can get a deal that Ken Holland can live with.

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07-17-2012, 01:03 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
That's parity. It takes some fans longer than others to realize the true effects of parity. You'll get there eventually
Parity would imply the Wings were on equal footing with the Kings. That's the delusional part. You will get there eventually. Late April is my estimation.

Losing Lidstrom and Stuart and replacing them with nothing doesnt make you equal to the defending Stanley Cup Champions.

I know my post seems negative, but it's just reality.

The Wings are an inferior team compared to last year's team and asking them to pull an LA Kings is delusional. You are being dishonest with yourself if you think this team is capable of doing that. Kings were projected before the season began as cup favorites. They needed one more piece to get over the hump and when they got it.........well the rest is history.


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07-17-2012, 01:09 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Parity would imply the Wings were on equal footing with the Kings. That's the delusional part. You will get there eventually. Late April is my estimation.

Losing Lidstrom and Stuart and replacing them with nothing doesnt make you equal to the defending Stanley Cup Champions.
Lloyd Carr had his defenders right up until Appalachian State. I guess some people still defended him after that game but for most the writing was on the wall. Does Ken Holland adapt and make this team a contender? Time will tell. We've got the cap space and a deep prospect pool, just about everyone would agree with that as being the case.

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07-17-2012, 01:10 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Parity would imply the Wings were on equal footing with the Kings. That's the delusional part. You will get there eventually. Late April is my estimation.

Losing Lidstrom and Stuart and replacing them with nothing doesnt make you equal to the defending Stanley Cup Champions.
That's a strawman. No one is suggesting the Wings are the same as the Kings. The point is that a low-seed has a better chance than ever before. 8 seeds now are better than 8 seeds in the past. And, on the flip side, 1 seeds now are not generally as good as 1 seeds in the past. Yes, the Wings want to finish as high in the standings as they can, of course, but it's not as important anymore to be a top seed. And the Kings are absolutely an example of that. Nothing delusional about it. It's parity. And it's here. I won't predict when you'll catch up, but hopefully soon

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07-17-2012, 01:13 AM
  #113
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That's a strawman. No one is suggesting the Wings are the same as the Kings. The point is that a low-seed has a better chance than ever before. 8 seeds now are better than 8 seeds in the past. And, on the flip side, 1 seeds now are not generally as good as 1 seeds in the past. Yes, the Wings want to finish as high in the standings as they can, of course, but it's not as important anymore to be a top seed. And the Kings are absolutely an example of that. Nothing delusional about it. It's parity. And it's here. I won't predict when you'll catch up, but hopefully soon
Kings were expected to contend for the cup. They horribly underachieved until they got the last piece of the puzzle at the trade deadline. Using the Kings as proof of parity is laughable in my opinion.

I am suggesting that the Wings team we will be seeing in a few months is worse than last year's team. Nothing straw man about that. How a team goes from a 1st round exit to winning the Stanley Cup after losing their two best defense man and replacing them with nothing looks like a pipe dream.

I fully expect today's roster to be 99% the same as the roster we see on opening night.

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07-17-2012, 01:21 AM
  #114
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I fully expect today's roster to be 99% the same as the roster we see on opening night.
Well that is impossible, we know they like to carry seven d-man like the rest of the NHL and they have to many forwards currently under contract. So....

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07-17-2012, 01:22 AM
  #115
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The Kings are a very young team with great depth and an elite goalie to help out a decent/above average defensive core.
The Kings have a goalie who had an Elite season, whether he can keep up that pace is very much up for debate. Before last season he was ranked behind Howard, maybe next year is Howards break-out year

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Wings do not have an elite defense and their core of Z and Datsyuk is on the wrong side of 30. Let's not forget that Kenny got some sweet top six upgrade's this year by signing Samuelsson for two years.
Since when do you have to be young to win the Cup? The Wings have been considered an old team for over 20 years and its never held them back before. They are significantly younger this year than last year anyways.

Samuelsson is not signed to be part of the top 6, if he plays there it will be because he outplayed Nyquist, Cleary, Bert, Brunner and any players we happen to sign/get via trade for the spot.

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Wings depth consists of Darren Helm. Once you lose him you realize how worthless the Wings bottom six is.
You can't be serious. We added 3 additions to the bottom 6, while getting Eaves back from injury. We have more bottom 6 depth than any team in the league.

Helm, Tootoo, Abdelkader, Eaves, Cleary, Bert, Miller, Emmerton, Mursak, Brunner, Samuelsson, and Nyquist are all potentially bottom 6 players for us next year. How can you say our bottom 6 has no depth?

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Using the Kings as an example on why the Wings can contend is foolish and setting you up so your liver hates you by the end of April.

Wings dont even have cap space as an advantage since the Kings have 10 million available compared to Detroit's 15 million. That's the scary part right there.

Wings will be a better than mediocre team next year. 6-8th seed with no hope of winning the cup. That's not bad for rebuilding and i am OK with that. Not much Kenny can do anymore now that all the quality FA's are gone or wont be signed by the Wings for whatever reason (Semin) and apparently trading roster player's is illegal in Detroit. I will watch the team and cheer for them and hope they entertain me. That's all i can ask of this team next season.
The Kings don't have 10 million in cap space, they have just over 8.6 million, while Detroit has just under 16 million, so almost double.

Besides thats all irrelevant, the point isn't to compare the Wings and Kings specifically its to say that ANY playoff team has a shot at the cup.

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07-17-2012, 01:24 AM
  #116
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Fact. And that was quite apparent while they were getting embarrassed in the first rd vs Nashville.
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Wings depth consists of Darren Helm. Once you lose him you realize how worthless the Wings bottom six is.

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07-17-2012, 01:31 AM
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Or Howard has peaked and will be exposed behind a severely depleted defense.
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The Kings have a goalie who had an Elite season, whether he can keep up that pace is very much up for debate. Before last season he was ranked behind Howard, maybe next year is Howards break-out year

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07-17-2012, 01:31 AM
  #118
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Well Howard hasnt done that and he has had three years to prove his ability to elevate his game in the playoffs. He has been good with flashes of great. He is who he is. A goalie that plays for the Detroit Red Wings that have gotten worse and worse since the end of 2009. That is the opposite trend for Jonathan Quick and the Kings.

Having a young core helps. Wings core of Datsyuk and Zetterberg has proven that they cant carry the team like they used to. They badly need help and Holland has done nothing to address that problem since the end of the 2009 season.

Wings depth is so ridiculously overrated its painful to read. It's a bunch of names that dont contribute on any level. What the hell has Justin Abdelkader done since scoring those goals against the Pens? The depth completely vanishes in the playoffs because it's not built to do anything in the playoffs. Helm is the only consistent depth player. Tootoo is a good signing, but we will see how he does. The lack of depth hurt's Datsyuk and Z even more since they have to work even harder.

Wings have 16 million and are probably about to pay Quincey (nice job Holland) four million dollars. So that number drops to around 12-13 million. Let's not forget the greatest Wing of them all........Justin Abdelkader who is still a RFA too and needs to be signed. It's easy to forget about him since Holland signed 9000 bottom six players.

You keep believing that the Kings have proven parity to be working. They were a team that horribly underachieved and got the final piece of the puzzle and lived up to their expectations. The Kings are the rallying cry of Wings fans hoping the same will happen next year. I dont believe any team that gets in has a shot at the cup. It's a bad cliche. The Wings have been the inferior team since 2009. That trend does not look like it will be reversed in 2013.

I do hope you are right and prove me wrong though. I just have no expectations of that happening. I will enjoy watching Z and Datsyuk. I will also enjoy seeing what Nyquist can do on Datsyuk's wing. I just have no expectations for them doing any damage in the playoffs.


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07-17-2012, 01:48 AM
  #119
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Essentially we have 12 bottom six forwards, 1 top 4 D-man, and 3.5 top 6 forwards. (Franzen is the .5)

I simply don't get the argument that this team can be nearly as good as last year's. That being the case I think giving them a 50/50 chance of making the playoffs might be too generous.

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07-17-2012, 02:02 AM
  #120
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This is the attitude I knew would rear its head when Lidstrom retired.

Lidstrom was pretty pedestrian last year, and we still were a playoff team.
We don't need to replace the best defenseman of the last 20 years.

We need to replace a very skilled, but slowish defenseman who still had very strong technical skills even as his skills were declining.

Lidstrom can be replaced.

Even if he can't, we have the ability right now to improve. And we're sitting on our hands.

He retired 3 yrs after the Wings almost won in 2009, on the heels of a Cup in 2008.

Yes, he was on the decline and it wasn't the same Lidstrom from 09 or 08 or 02. However--- he fit the team like a glove. Or the team fit him like a glove. You can't just plug in another guy, even elite and expect it to gel, so even a slower, older Lidstrom might still be far more effective at his 70% level than someone newer.

And as we've noted, on top of losing the one player who was by far the most dependable one you'd ever want on the ice, the team lost Rafalski and Stuart. They too were very good meshes for the team and fit a specific role that seem utterly suited to them.

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07-17-2012, 02:02 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Well Howard hasnt done that and he has had three years to prove his ability to elevate his game in the playoffs. He has been good with flashes of great. He is who he is. A goalie that plays for the Detroit Red Wings that have gotten worse and worse since the end of 2009. That is the opposite trend for Jonathan Quick and the Kings.

Having a young core helps. Wings core of Datsyuk and Zetterberg has proven that they cant carry the team like they used to. They badly need help and Holland has done nothing to address that problem since the end of the 2009 season.

Wings depth is so ridiculously overrated its painful to read. It's a bunch of names that dont contribute on any level. What the hell has Justin Abdelkader done since scoring those goals against the Pens? The depth completely vanishes in the playoffs because it's not built to do anything in the playoffs. Helm is the only consistent depth player. Tootoo is a good signing, but we will see how he does. The lack of depth hurt's Datsyuk and Z even more since they have to work even harder.

Wings have 16 million and are probably about to pay Quincey (nice job Holland) four million dollars. So that number drops to around 12-13 million. Let's not forget the greatest Wing of them all........Justin Abdelkader who is still a RFA too and needs to be signed.

You keep believing that the Kings have proven parity to be working. They were a team that horribly underachieved and got the final piece of the puzzle and lived up to their expectations. The Kings are the rallying cry of Wings fans hoping the same will happen next year. I dont believe any team that gets in has a shot at the cup. It's a bad cliche. The Wings have been the inferior team since 2009. That trend does not look like it will be reversed in 2013.
It took Quick 4 years to hit his stride, Why shouldn't we give Howard the same leeway. His first 3 years have been better than Quick's. Its a long shot but not impossible that his 4th will be too.

The offseason isn't even close to being over, you have no idea who is even in the top 6, if its Nyquist and he puts up 50+ pts, all of a sudden Detroit has a young piece to their core and a better top 6.

I'm not saying the Wings will be the Kings, or better than the Kings, I'm saying that the Kings proved you don't have to be the best team in the league to win the cup.

The Kings aren't some Juggernaut team that is going to rule the league for the next decade, I personally think they over-achieved in the playoffs and will be a better regular season team this coming year, but will not be able to duplicate any of the playoff success they had.

If the Wings depth is so bad, What teams bottom 6 DO you like? Other than at center the Kings bottom 6 pales in comparison to the Wings. Depending on the lines the Wings may have the highest scoring bottom 6 in the entire NHL.

You can call it a bad cliche all you want, but its still an irrefutable fact that making the playoffs gives you a shot at the Cup. Your chances may be smaller as an 8 seed but you still only need 16 wins just like 15 other teams.

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07-17-2012, 02:03 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
Essentially we have 12 bottom six forwards, 1 top 4 D-man, and 3.5 top 6 forwards. (Franzen is the .5)

I simply don't get the argument that this team can be nearly as good as last year's. That being the case I think giving them a 50/50 chance of making the playoffs might be too generous.
It would appear to me that you're not all that interested in being talked off the ledge. You seem to like it out there and have your mind made up.

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07-17-2012, 02:04 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Kings were expected to contend for the cup. They horribly underachieved until they got the last piece of the puzzle at the trade deadline. Using the Kings as proof of parity is laughable in my opinion.

I am suggesting that the Wings team we will be seeing in a few months is worse than last year's team. Nothing straw man about that. How a team goes from a 1st round exit to winning the Stanley Cup after losing their two best defense man and replacing them with nothing looks like a pipe dream.

I fully expect today's roster to be 99% the same as the roster we see on opening night.
Don't forget the coaching change.

Some of us expected them to be a hell of a lot better than their early record showed. Doughty was locked out by Lombardi for a good couple of months. That alone might have cost the team a few notches in the standings.

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07-17-2012, 02:04 AM
  #124
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It would appear to me that you're not all that interested in being talked off the ledge. You seem to like it out there and have your mind made up.
He can't help it if his assessment seems to be accurate.

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07-17-2012, 02:06 AM
  #125
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Or Howard has peaked and will be exposed behind a severely depleted defense.
Maybe he will, There are glass half full kind of people and glass half empty kind of people.

Apparently when it comes to some of our more spoiled fans there is now a new category of fans who see only shards of a broken glass which they seem to want to slice across their wrists.

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