HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Detroit Red Wings
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

I am a spoiled Wings fan-Talk me off the ledge!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-17-2012, 07:37 PM
  #151
jaster
I pay off the mods.
 
jaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Country: United States
Posts: 6,393
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
They don't have to dominate for 10 yrs, but they are a contender for a 5-7 yr stretch, and probably can win more than one Cup.
Yeah, I'm sure that can happen.


Quote:
My point wasn't the period of contention, but that tanking and loading up on elite talent is a cheaper way to acquire elite talent. It seems it's virtually impossible due to the cap to load up on more than a couple of superstars. Random events will take care of most teams, but the teams who managed to tank and acquire 4-5 elite talents that way will have the upper hand.
There is definitely more appeal to tank and accumulate picks than there was before the salary cap, I agree. The upside to that unfortunate development is that there will theoretically be more teams doing it, and there's only so many top-3 picks to go around. So it may actually be a more difficult strategy to pull off than before the cap as well.

jaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2012, 07:38 PM
  #152
jaster
I pay off the mods.
 
jaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Country: United States
Posts: 6,393
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
has the salary cap really changed everything about the game and what it takes to be successful?
Maybe not everything, no. But most things.

jaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2012, 08:22 PM
  #153
SoupNazi
Global Moderator
No Soup for You!!!
 
SoupNazi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Kramerica Industries
Country: Argentina
Posts: 18,179
vCash: 526
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I think so. The cap forces the GM to always worry about cap hits firstly. They used to make 'hockey decisions'. Trades happened more frequently than they do now. Contracts are longer now for the better players. Now every player has a 'cap hit' and that has become the currency for trades.

I enjoyed waking up and finding teams had made some deals, designed solely to work on a roster issue. That's gone the way of the dodo bird.
I agree with everything Fugu says here. Really, since the lockout I've found every trade deadline and every free agency period fairly boring. GMs, for the most part, play it safe with their spending.

Of course, you have exceptions, but for the most part, nothing interesting happens anymore.

SoupNazi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2012, 08:41 PM
  #154
ZDH
Registered User
 
ZDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,439
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
Why? They have depth at forward, a solid all around defense anchored by a stud Norris caliber #1 defense man and a top flight goalie that narrowly lost the Vezina. The fact they had such a bad regular season and backed into the playoffs is more of a surprise to me than them winning the cup was. That is a damn good team, cap world or not.
Because I like a few teams in the west more, particularly vancouver and especially st louis. Id take Pietrangelo over Doughty any day of the week. I like the Blues collection of forwards a lot more and the goaltending is a wash. Throw in the fact that the Blues have Elliot as a fall back option and the kings have an unproven berneir and I'll take St Louis in net as well. LA isnt the 02 red wings, they dont scare me near as much as vancouver or St Louis does.

Theres a few teams in the west that can boast that they have a potential vezina caliber goalie, a stud dman, and a stacked group of forwards....


Last edited by ZDH: 07-17-2012 at 08:47 PM.
ZDH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2012, 09:40 PM
  #155
icKx
Subtle interference
 
icKx's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Intertubes
Country: United States
Posts: 3,186
vCash: 500
Even if the Blues and Canucks are better that still doesn't support LA finishing outside the top-4 in the West.

That argument begins with what team bests them in a somewhat declining Pacific division.

icKx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2012, 10:13 PM
  #156
FlashyG
Registered User
 
FlashyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,074
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by icKx View Post
Even if the Blues and Canucks are better that still doesn't support LA finishing outside the top-4 in the West.

That argument begins with what team bests them in a somewhat declining Pacific division.
Personally I think they'll win their division but I wouldn't be shocked if either Dallas or San Jose beat them.

FlashyG is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2012, 10:47 PM
  #157
Actual Thought
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,298
vCash: 500
Do you enjoy being so negative?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
I agree with everything Fugu says here. Really, since the lockout I've found every trade deadline and every free agency period fairly boring. GMs, for the most part, play it safe with their spending.

Of course, you have exceptions, but for the most part, nothing interesting happens anymore.

Actual Thought is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2012, 11:03 PM
  #158
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
LA made some of the most audacious trades a GM can make and they won.
Sure, they picked Doughty 2nd overall. But lots of those guys were middle and a late first round picks, and even more were late rounders.
A lot of these guys came via trade and UFA.

It's not a good plan to tank for high picks.

It's a good plan to hire GMs who are excellent at assessing talent, and making the choices about who to pay and who to let walk.

RedWingsNow* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2012, 11:11 PM
  #159
The Zetterberg Era
Moderator
Nyquist Explosion!
 
The Zetterberg Era's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ft. Myers, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 22,957
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
LA made some of the most audacious trades a GM can make and they won.
Sure, they picked Doughty 2nd overall. But lots of those guys were middle and a late first round picks, and even more were late rounders.
A lot of these guys came via trade and UFA.

It's not a good plan to tank for high picks.

It's a good plan to hire GMs who are excellent at assessing talent, and making the choices about who to pay and who to let walk.
Kopitar was really a riskier pick at the time than people give them credit for. They took him out of Swedish 1 or the lower level junior teams and high (11th I think). He panned out in a big way, but that is far from the slam dunk people look at it like now. Not also from a country exactly known for producing world class talent in Slovenia.

The Zetterberg Era is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2012, 11:15 PM
  #160
Actual Thought
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,298
vCash: 500
Don't just take shots at Abdelkader like that!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
It's a good plan to hire GMs who are excellent at assessing talent, and making the choices about who to pay and who to let walk.

Actual Thought is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2012, 11:31 PM
  #161
jaster
I pay off the mods.
 
jaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Country: United States
Posts: 6,393
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
LA made some of the most audacious trades a GM can make and they won.
Sure, they picked Doughty 2nd overall. But lots of those guys were middle and a late first round picks, and even more were late rounders.
A lot of these guys came via trade and UFA.

It's not a good plan to tank for high picks.

It's a good plan to hire GMs who are excellent at assessing talent, and making the choices about who to pay and who to let walk.
Tanking for high picks certainly can be a good plan. It worked out nicely for more than one team that recently won the Cup. There's more than one way to win. And there are combinations of ways to win. A team could both tank for high picks and have a great GM who makes great choices.

jaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2012, 12:08 AM
  #162
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: ϶(o)ϵ
Posts: 31,587
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
LA made some of the most audacious trades a GM can make and they won.
Sure, they picked Doughty 2nd overall. But lots of those guys were middle and a late first round picks, and even more were late rounders.
A lot of these guys came via trade and UFA.

It's not a good plan to tank for high picks.

It's a good plan to hire GMs who are excellent at assessing talent, and making the choices about who to pay and who to let walk.
Back when Lombardi was badmouthing Doughty, I decided he was a terrible GM. He's a bit of loudmouth and didn't seem to mind getting down to the mud level. I also thought he was taking a massive risk in trading for both Carter and Richards, given their penchant for night life and LA being... well LA and Hollywood-esque. I guess he knew both players well enough to convince him it was a good risk, but I'll admit that I wasn't convinced it was a good move. It still may be that getting Sutter to pull it all together was the real missing piece. Funny how that worked out after Sutter fired himself in Calgary.

Fugu is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2012, 08:54 AM
  #163
Syckle78
Registered User
 
Syckle78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Redford, MI
Country: Belgium
Posts: 6,410
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
LA made some of the most audacious trades a GM can make and they won.
Sure, they picked Doughty 2nd overall. But lots of those guys were middle and a late first round picks, and even more were late rounders.
A lot of these guys came via trade and UFA.

It's not a good plan to tank for high picks.

It's a good plan to hire GMs who are excellent at assessing talent, and making the choices about who to pay and who to let walk.
I don't quite agree with the bolded part. Sometimes it is and is the only way to build your team at a certain point. There is noway the Lions would of been able to turn their team around without the high picks. At the same time though you are absolutely right with the end of your post. You cannot win without a legit front office able to assess talent.

Syckle78 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2012, 03:00 PM
  #164
ZDH
Registered User
 
ZDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,439
vCash: 500
Yep, tanking worked out real well for recent stanley cup champs....

(not being sarcastic)


Last edited by ZDH: 07-18-2012 at 03:16 PM.
ZDH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2012, 07:07 AM
  #165
octopi
Registered User
 
octopi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 31,528
vCash: 844
The Wings might be a bad team for a year or two, maybe even three. Rebuild a bit.Can you not live with this?In the expansion era(since the late 60's when there got to be a decent number of teams) history of the NHL, you'd be hard pressed to find (m)any teams that dominated for nearly 2 decades the way the Wings have. 8+ conference finals, 6 cup finals, 4 cup wins. Multiple years near the top of the league in the regular season.Last 2 Captains were two of the most legendary players in the game, and captained the team for more than 25 years combined.Other fans are seething with jealousy any time they think about the way the Wings ruled this league for 2 decades. You literally could not ask for more from a team. Heck, I had to take on a second team and become a Caps fan to really appreciate exactly how incredible the last 2 decades were.

octopi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2012, 08:05 AM
  #166
Actual Thought
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,298
vCash: 500
It has been a great run but I don't think 2-3 years is what we are looking at. In 3 years Hank and Pav will be 35 and 37. We have a pretty short window to win again now while they still have something in the tank. We won't know for many years but odds are we don't have a Hank, Pav, and Lidstrom waiting in the farm system which means we will end up in the middle of the pack like a Calgary. No high picks and nothing to attract free agents.Right now fans in other markets are not envious. They are salivating at watching the Wing's implosion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by octopi View Post
The Wings might be a bad team for a year or two, maybe even three. Rebuild a bit.Can you not live with this?In the expansion era(since the late 60's when there got to be a decent number of teams) history of the NHL, you'd be hard pressed to find (m)any teams that dominated for nearly 2 decades the way the Wings have. 8+ conference finals, 6 cup finals, 4 cup wins. Multiple years near the top of the league in the regular season.Last 2 Captains were two of the most legendary players in the game, and captained the team for more than 25 years combined.Other fans are seething with jealousy any time they think about the way the Wings ruled this league for 2 decades. You literally could not ask for more from a team. Heck, I had to take on a second team and become a Caps fan to really appreciate exactly how incredible the last 2 decades were.

Actual Thought is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2012, 05:06 PM
  #167
SoupNazi
Global Moderator
No Soup for You!!!
 
SoupNazi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Kramerica Industries
Country: Argentina
Posts: 18,179
vCash: 526
Quote:
Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
It has been a great run but I don't think 2-3 years is what we are looking at. In 3 years Hank and Pav will be 35 and 37. We have a pretty short window to win again now while they still have something in the tank. We won't know for many years but odds are we don't have a Hank, Pav, and Lidstrom waiting in the farm system which means we will end up in the middle of the pack like a Calgary. No high picks and nothing to attract free agents. Right now fans in other markets are not envious. They are salivating at watching the Wing's implosion.
Oh, please. You don't necessarily need Top-5 picks to be successful in this league. Let's see how guys like Jarnkrok and Jurco develop before we start comparing ourselves to Calgary.

SoupNazi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2012, 05:40 PM
  #168
Zetterberg4Captain
Registered User
 
Zetterberg4Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,458
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
Oh, please. You don't necessarily need Top-5 picks to be successful in this league. Let's see how guys like Jarnkrok and Jurco develop before we start comparing ourselves to Calgary.
exactly, but wait one sec though, for those teams who havent had a top 5 pick in the last few seasons and who are universally considered to be good an/or successful, how exactly did they go about doing it? Was it just 2nd rd picks who waited 3-6 years from draft to NHL duty, or, hmmm, was their anything else?

Zetterberg4Captain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2012, 09:47 PM
  #169
Actual Thought
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,298
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
Oh, please. You don't necessarily need Top-5 picks to be successful in this league. Let's see how guys like Jarnkrok and Jurco develop before we start comparing ourselves to Calgary.
Jarnkrok is 156 lbs and 5' 11 at 20 years old. Awesome size for an NHL player in 1980. Jurco may have hope but I don't know if one player is going to get the job done. If we are waiting on these guys we are in full blown rebuild. With parity that is a dice roll.

Actual Thought is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2012, 10:02 PM
  #170
FlashyG
Registered User
 
FlashyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,074
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
Jarnkrok is 156 lbs and 5' 11 at 20 years old. Awesome size for an NHL player in 1980. Jurco may have hope but I don't know if one player is going to get the job done. If we are waiting on these guys we are in full blown rebuild. With parity that is a dice roll.
That was his weight when he was drafted, he's put on 10 lbs since then and will continue to get bigger.

You know who was even smaller than that when drafted?....Datsyuk.

FlashyG is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2012, 10:18 PM
  #171
Actual Thought
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,298
vCash: 500
Fair enough. So what do we do in the next 5 years?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
That was his weight when he was drafted, he's put on 10 lbs since then and will continue to get bigger.

You know who was even smaller than that when drafted?....Datsyuk.

Actual Thought is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2012, 10:35 PM
  #172
The Zetterberg Era
Moderator
Nyquist Explosion!
 
The Zetterberg Era's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ft. Myers, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 22,957
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
Jarnkrok is 156 lbs and 5' 11 at 20 years old. Awesome size for an NHL player in 1980. Jurco may have hope but I don't know if one player is going to get the job done. If we are waiting on these guys we are in full blown rebuild. With parity that is a dice roll.
He is currently listed on eliteprospects.com as 6'0" 176lbs. My guess is he will be up over 180lbs when he shows up in September. Datsyuk and Z were both similarly "small" when they started playing. In fact Claude Giroux is 5'11" and 172 lbs doesn't seem to be a big problem for him.

The Zetterberg Era is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2012, 10:36 PM
  #173
sully61
Unregistered User
 
sully61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,446
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
Jarnkrok is 156 lbs and 5' 11 at 20 years old. Awesome size for an NHL player in 1980. Jurco may have hope but I don't know if one player is going to get the job done. If we are waiting on these guys we are in full blown rebuild. With parity that is a dice roll.
Last season he was listed at 176lbs, so who knows where he'll be at the start of this upcoming year. I'm thinking around 180-185 because he has been gaining 10lbs each year.

sully61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2012, 10:47 PM
  #174
Actual Thought
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,298
vCash: 500
Gotcha, Redwings.com has him listed as 156 and 20 years old. Wonder why they are up to date on his age and not his weight. In any case what is the supposed time frame for this kid?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sully61 View Post
Last season he was listed at 176lbs, so who knows where he'll be at the start of this upcoming year. I'm thinking around 180-185 because he has been gaining 10lbs each year.

Actual Thought is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2012, 10:48 PM
  #175
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
I don't quite agree with the bolded part. Sometimes it is and is the only way to build your team at a certain point. There is noway the Lions would of been able to turn their team around without the high picks. At the same time though you are absolutely right with the end of your post. You cannot win without a legit front office able to assess talent.
If you have a team willing to spend money, you can create a cup contender quite easily, if your GM is good at assessing NHL talent.

You don't need to be a great drafter. It sure helps, obviously. But it's not necessary. And you definitely don't need to have lottery picks.

Far too many good players in this league were picked outside of the top 10 for anyone to suggest that you need to be a lottery pick team to be any good.

RedWingsNow* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:06 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.