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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Ovechkin & Malkin vs Lafleur & Dionne

View Poll Results: Would you rather build your team around Ovechkin and Malkin or Dionne and Lafleur?
Ovechkin & Malkin 25 55.56%
Dionne & Lafleur 20 44.44%
Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-16-2012, 06:26 PM
  #1
Brewster
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Ovechkin & Malkin vs Lafleur & Dionne

Simple question. Would you rather build your team around the top 2 picks from the 1971 entry draft or the top 2 from the 2004 entry draft?

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07-16-2012, 07:45 PM
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Big Phil
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Lafleur and Dionne here. The reason being, is that the one quantity Ovechkin can beat Lafleur in would be goal scoring. Even then, its arguable.

Dionne vs. Malkin is a bit closer. Malkin on his best day is as good or better than Dionne. The only issue is, like Ovechkin, you wonder if they'll mail it in come playoff time. It's happened. Dionne you get the same feeling with but Lafleur is by far the most consistent day in and day out performer of the 4. He never took a night off.

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07-16-2012, 08:34 PM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Lafleur and Dionne here. The reason being, is that the one quantity Ovechkin can beat Lafleur in would be goal scoring. Even then, its arguable.

Dionne vs. Malkin is a bit closer. Malkin on his best day is as good or better than Dionne. The only issue is, like Ovechkin, you wonder if they'll mail it in come playoff time. It's happened. Dionne you get the same feeling with but Lafleur is by far the most consistent day in and day out performer of the 4. He never took a night off.
Yes, that Conn Smythe trophy that's ringing in Malkin's ears with the highest single playoff point total in history outside of Lemieux, Gretzky, and Coffey. Defintiely didn't show up that playoffs. Or the season before when he had 22 points in 20 playoff games. Or the season after when he had 11 points in 13 games. Or this year when he had 8 points in 6 games. Yeah all those times he definitely mailed it in and didn't show up. Let me tell you.

Lafleur is definitely the best of the bunch though, and I take that pairing over the recent pairing as of right now.

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07-17-2012, 04:49 AM
  #4
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Lafleur and Dionne here. The reason being, is that the one quantity Ovechkin can beat Lafleur in would be goal scoring. Even then, its arguable.

Dionne vs. Malkin is a bit closer. Malkin on his best day is as good or better than Dionne. The only issue is, like Ovechkin, you wonder if they'll mail it in come playoff time. It's happened. Dionne you get the same feeling with but Lafleur is by far the most consistent day in and day out performer of the 4. He never took a night off.
How in the world do you get "the same feeling" about Dionne as you get from Malkin/Ovechkin in the playoffs? That qoute seems either extremely biased or extremely dishonest.

Dionne is in the running for the biggest playoff let down ever (and not just on a team level)

Malkin beat prime Crosby for a Conn Smythe.

Ovechkin has one of the highest goals and points/game in playoff history.

Please explain this feeling of yours.

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07-17-2012, 08:32 AM
  #5
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The Russians and it's not even close. People are overrated Marcel Dionne and/or underrating one of the current players.

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07-17-2012, 08:54 AM
  #6
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Can I trade Lafleur after his six-year prime? Either way, Dionne is a sure thing. I like the window of opportunity for a championship with those two. But if Ovechkin bounces back (and Malkin stays bounced back), it's them.

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07-17-2012, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
The Russians and it's not even close. People are overrated Marcel Dionne and/or underrating one of the current players.
If anything, it sure as hell isn't "not even close" (is that the most overused phrase on HFBoards?).

The nice thing about Lafleur/Dionne is that you know how their whole careers turned out - and I'd take them at the moment.

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07-17-2012, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Lafleur and Dionne here. The reason being, is that the one quantity Ovechkin can beat Lafleur in would be goal scoring. Even then, its arguable.
I'd put them pretty even goal scoring-wise... and give OV a sizable advantage in physical play.

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07-17-2012, 12:36 PM
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The answer really depends on how much Dionne's longevity as an elite player counts

Ovechkin = Lafleur in the regular season, but Lafleur wins because of playoffs.

So Malkin would need to beat Dionne for this to be a comparison, and I think the only way that happens is if we only compare their first 6 seasons or whatever

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07-17-2012, 01:22 PM
  #10
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The answer really depends on how much Dionne's longevity as an elite player counts

Ovechkin = Lafleur in the regular season, but Lafleur wins because of playoffs.

So Malkin would need to beat Dionne for this to be a comparison, and I think the only way that happens is if we only compare their first 6 seasons or whatever
But you could compare Malkin with Lafleur and Dionne to Ovy. Than it looks a lot closer to me, as the emphasis mostly lies on the playoffs.

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07-17-2012, 01:28 PM
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But you could compare Malkin with Lafleur and Dionne to Ovy. Than it looks a lot closer to me, as the emphasis mostly lies on the playoffs.
I don't think it's as easy a comparison then because Lafleur and Ovechkin have very similar regular season peaks, both a step up from the other two.

I don't think they are that compatible in the playoffs this way, as Lafleur is easily better than Malkin and Ovechkin easily better than Dionne in the playoffs

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07-17-2012, 01:32 PM
  #12
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Confusing comparison because Ovechkin/Malkin's careers aren't close to completion yet.


But in terms of peak ferformance, its a slight advantage for Ovechkin/Malkin.....but only because Dionne lags behind the others in the playoffs.

LaFleur
Malkin
Ovechkin

Dionne

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07-17-2012, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Can I trade Lafleur after his six-year prime? Either way, Dionne is a sure thing. I like the window of opportunity for a championship with those two. But if Ovechkin bounces back (and Malkin stays bounced back), it's them.
I'd agree with this for the most part.

It's a bit of an unfair question because people are comparing entire careers with 7 years of work.

That being said Malkin is the most skilled of the 4 and probably the best playoff performer overall in most situations (ie when are we building this team, sometime between the 70's and today and without knowing who else is on the roster I'd build around Malkin 1st).

Size also trumps AO over Dionne (who I think is under rated on these boards BTW).

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07-17-2012, 10:09 PM
  #14
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Originally Posted by pluppe View Post
How in the world do you get "the same feeling" about Dionne as you get from Malkin/Ovechkin in the playoffs? That qoute seems either extremely biased or extremely dishonest.

Dionne is in the running for the biggest playoff let down ever (and not just on a team level)

Malkin beat prime Crosby for a Conn Smythe.

Ovechkin has one of the highest goals and points/game in playoff history.

Please explain this feeling of yours.
We can agree that Ovechkin and Malkin both have been on better teams than Dionne ever was. That being said they should have more playoff success than Dionne, which they do. Would they do any better though on those Kings teams? Hard to say, but the "feeling" I get lumping the three together is that there have been inconsistency issues with Dionne, Malkin and Ovechkin. In fact, Dionne never really did have the luxury of being great in the postseason. Malkin did. It would be harder to know what you would get from those three compared to Lafleur who never seemed to squander a big game opportunity. That's all. This is why I take the group with Lafleur. You have a very good indication of what he will do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Yes, that Conn Smythe trophy that's ringing in Malkin's ears with the highest single playoff point total in history outside of Lemieux, Gretzky, and Coffey. Defintiely didn't show up that playoffs. Or the season before when he had 22 points in 20 playoff games. Or the season after when he had 11 points in 13 games. Or this year when he had 8 points in 6 games. Yeah all those times he definitely mailed it in and didn't show up. Let me tell you.

Lafleur is definitely the best of the bunch though, and I take that pairing over the recent pairing as of right now.
2009 was very good for Malkin. 2008 was looking that way too until the final. It took Malkin until Game 5 of the final to get a point. Meanwhile the Pens lost three of the first 4 games. 2010? He did not do well at all. Again, he wasn't a dominating factor against Montreal. 2012? Neither him or Crosby were difference makers. Could have won the series just by raw skill and didn't. So there are certainly some inconsistency issues with Malkin.

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07-17-2012, 10:14 PM
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Ovechkins 2009 playoffs was the greatest goal scoring display I have ever seen. Everytime he touched the puck he was dangerous.

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07-17-2012, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by PSUCapsFan View Post
Ovechkins 2009 playoffs was the greatest goal scoring display I have ever seen. Everytime he touched the puck he was dangerous.
It was pretty amazing. Alas he never got out of the second round and wasn't even the best player in that second round series either.

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07-17-2012, 11:10 PM
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I don't think it's as easy a comparison then because Lafleur and Ovechkin have very similar regular season peaks, both a step up from the other two.

I don't think they are that compatible in the playoffs this way, as Lafleur is easily better than Malkin and Ovechkin easily better than Dionne in the playoffs
You eluded to it earlier, if we compare all 4 players directly in their 1st 7 seasons as a direct comp then it's more fair as of now.

Guy probably still has the edge in the playoffs but it's not as huge and it's difficult to isolate individual versus supporting team and the context of the mid 70's (great disparity to late 00's less disparity between teams and tiers in the league).

If we add up regular seasons and playoffs for all 4 players in their 1st 4 years then the edge goes to Malkin and AO IMO.

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07-18-2012, 12:27 AM
  #18
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
We can agree that Ovechkin and Malkin both have been on better teams than Dionne ever was. That being said they should have more playoff success than Dionne, which they do. Would they do any better though on those Kings teams? Hard to say, but the "feeling" I get lumping the three together is that there have been inconsistency issues with Dionne, Malkin and Ovechkin. In fact, Dionne never really did have the luxury of being great in the postseason. Malkin did. It would be harder to know what you would get from those three compared to Lafleur who never seemed to squander a big game opportunity. That's all. This is why I take the group with Lafleur. You have a very good indication of what he will do.



2009 was very good for Malkin. 2008 was looking that way too until the final. It took Malkin until Game 5 of the final to get a point. Meanwhile the Pens lost three of the first 4 games. 2010? He did not do well at all. Again, he wasn't a dominating factor against Montreal. 2012? Neither him or Crosby were difference makers. Could have won the series just by raw skill and didn't. So there are certainly some inconsistency issues with Malkin.
Wow!

Thatīs one of the most biased attemts at arguing I have ever seen. I often value your opinion but I think you should have your glasses checked.

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07-18-2012, 01:02 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
We can agree that Ovechkin and Malkin both have been on better teams than Dionne ever was. That being said they should have more playoff success than Dionne, which they do. Would they do any better though on those Kings teams? Hard to say, but the "feeling" I get lumping the three together is that there have been inconsistency issues with Dionne, Malkin and Ovechkin. In fact, Dionne never really did have the luxury of being great in the postseason. Malkin did. It would be harder to know what you would get from those three compared to Lafleur who never seemed to squander a big game opportunity. That's all. This is why I take the group with Lafleur. You have a very good indication of what he will do.



2009 was very good for Malkin. 2008 was looking that way too until the final. It took Malkin until Game 5 of the final to get a point. Meanwhile the Pens lost three of the first 4 games. 2010? He did not do well at all. Again, he wasn't a dominating factor against Montreal. 2012? Neither him or Crosby were difference makers. Could have won the series just by raw skill and didn't. So there are certainly some inconsistency issues with Malkin.
Wait a second.
If you're penalizing Ovechkin/Malkin for playing on better teams than Dionne, at least hold Lafleur to that same criteria.
How would Lafleur have done on those Caps, Penguins, Kings teams? Hard to say.
Likewise, what would Ovechkin/Malkin/Dionne's playoff resume be if they had the luxury of playing for one of the greatest dynasties in history?

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07-18-2012, 06:41 AM
  #20
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Playing on the Same Team

The issue is how each pair would play on the same team.

Lafleur and Dionne would define one line each per team. Would not matter which was considered the first line. You could play them together on the PP. This would create a situation where their individual stats would suffer especially if you have an inequity in the supporting linemates.Since their styles were somewhat similar, it would not create synergy problems with the dman pairings, etc.

Lafleur tended to be a whiner, complaining about playing with Keith Acton after playing with Lemaire and Larouche.Not buying into Lemaire's coaching. Not good for a team concept that such a duo would require.

Malkin and Ovechkin. From the limited time they have played together internationally the team synergy is not there. Malkin's game blends fairly well with Crosby in Pittsburgh but injuries to both have precluded the team from optimizing.

A team would not have success playing Ovechkin and Malkin on the same line. Bobby Hull and Phil Esposito showed that a team is vulnerable with such lines.Basically an excellent defensive center with responsible wingers and defensemen that hold their position can drastically reduce the lines effectiveness.Split them and the opposition would require a second excellent defensive center. Key would be getting the appropriate center for Ovechkin and wingers for Malkin. Your dmen would have to show the necessary versatility to play effectively with both lines.

Overall a slight edge to the Lafleur / Dionne duo since getting the appropriate linemates and defensive pairings would be easier.

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07-18-2012, 09:24 AM
  #21
Rob Scuderi
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
We can agree that Ovechkin and Malkin both have been on better teams than Dionne ever was.
As long as we can agree Dionne's linemates shame everything Malkin's had to lineup with before finally getting James Neal. The presence of Gonchar is definitely something the Triple Crown line could have used, but Malkin had to carry the likes of Satan, Fedotenko, and Max Talbot during those '09 playoffs to a Conn Smythe. He had Sykora during the regular season but not those playoffs. Certainly not the only factor in play when comparing teams, but a notable one nonetheless.

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07-19-2012, 11:13 PM
  #22
Big Phil
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Wait a second.
If you're penalizing Ovechkin/Malkin for playing on better teams than Dionne, at least hold Lafleur to that same criteria.
How would Lafleur have done on those Caps, Penguins, Kings teams? Hard to say.
Likewise, what would Ovechkin/Malkin/Dionne's playoff resume be if they had the luxury of playing for one of the greatest dynasties in history?
Fair enough. I see your point. That being said, out of the 4 players the guy you know is giving it every night regardless is still Lafleur. If he won 4 Conn Smythe Trophies it wouldn't have been a crime. He was always money in the bank.

Malkin, when he wants to be, is utterly dominant. He has those moments like against the Canes in 2009. But he has other times when he is off his game. He and Crosby should have carried the Pens to a Cup this year. Really, just like 2010, the field was more depleted this year and it was theirs to lose. That bothers me that he only has one ring.

Ovechkin isn't a bad playoff performer at all. He just has failed to lead some pretty darn good teams anywhere. Losing three times at home in Game 7. You have to win one of those games. He's not going to mail it in so much as he won't be as consistently dominant as Lafleur.

Dionne is the 4th guy on this list.

Basically the playoff career looks like this:

Lafleur
Malkin
Ovechkin
Dionne


I don't know about you but I still take the #1 playoff performer (by a good margin) on my team if I am building around them.

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Originally Posted by pluppe View Post
Wow!

Thatīs one of the most biased attemts at arguing I have ever seen. I often value your opinion but I think you should have your glasses checked.
Malkin did lay an egg in the 2008 final though. He hasn't had a "wow" factor in the postseason other than 2009. I've been cheering for the Pens post lockout since the Leafs have been a joke so I've always paid a lot of attention to the Pens. The Pens should have more than one Cup by now, and there are some factors that come into play there that go beyond Malkin's hot and cold streaks but he does need to shoulder a bit of the blame.

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07-20-2012, 09:14 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Fair enough. I see your point. That being said, out of the 4 players the guy you know is giving it every night regardless is still Lafleur. If he won 4 Conn Smythe Trophies it wouldn't have been a crime. He was always money in the bank.

Malkin, when he wants to be, is utterly dominant. He has those moments like against the Canes in 2009. But he has other times when he is off his game. He and Crosby should have carried the Pens to a Cup this year. Really, just like 2010, the field was more depleted this year and it was theirs to lose. That bothers me that he only has one ring.

Ovechkin isn't a bad playoff performer at all. He just has failed to lead some pretty darn good teams anywhere. Losing three times at home in Game 7. You have to win one of those games. He's not going to mail it in so much as he won't be as consistently dominant as Lafleur.

Dionne is the 4th guy on this list.

Basically the playoff career looks like this:

Lafleur
Malkin
Ovechkin
Dionne


I don't know about you but I still take the #1 playoff performer (by a good margin) on my team if I am building around them.



Malkin did lay an egg in the 2008 final though. He hasn't had a "wow" factor in the postseason other than 2009. I've been cheering for the Pens post lockout since the Leafs have been a joke so I've always paid a lot of attention to the Pens. The Pens should have more than one Cup by now, and there are some factors that come into play there that go beyond Malkin's hot and cold streaks but he does need to shoulder a bit of the blame.
My problem is this:

First you said like this:


Lafleur





Malkin
Ovechkin
Dionne


Then you said like this


Lafleur


Malkin
Ovechkin

Dionne


Now you say this


Lafleur
Malkin
Ovechkin
Dionne


When I think itīs more like this

Lafleur

Malkin
Ovechkin






Dionne

But we can agree to disagree.

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07-20-2012, 02:34 PM
  #24
Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pluppe View Post
My problem is this:

First you said like this:


Lafleur





Malkin
Ovechkin
Dionne


Then you said like this


Lafleur


Malkin
Ovechkin

Dionne


Now you say this


Lafleur
Malkin
Ovechkin
Dionne


When I think itīs more like this

Lafleur

Malkin
Ovechkin






Dionne

But we can agree to disagree.
Honestly wasn't even thinking of how to space them. Seriously. Just put them in order from 1-4 without having the gaps in between. But if I were to do it that way I still think Lafleur is the best in the postseason by a decent margin. That counts for something for me. Malkin is better than Ovechkin by a bit but still far away from Lafleur and Dionne is far away from Ovechkin. I don't know, something like this I suppose:

Lafleur
...........
........
........
Malkin
Ovechkin
..........
.........
.........
Dionne


Just my opinion because I value what a prime Lafleur would bring to the table in the postseason. And in this case I always take the team with the best player who is going to help me win. I think it is safe to say no one on that list helps their team win more than Lafleur.

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07-20-2012, 03:43 PM
  #25
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if we only count their first seven years, you could add up ovechkin and malkin's high end accomplishments and that would still only really equal lafleur.


ovechkin+malkin: art ross (x3), hart (x3), lindsay (x4), conn smythe, 1st team all-star (x8), 2nd team all-star (x1), stanley cup, calder (x2), goals finishes (1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5), assists finishes (1, 3, 6, 6, 6, 10), points finishes (1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 7)

lafleur: art ross (x3), hart (x2), pearson (x3), conn smythe, 1st team all-star (x4), stanley cup (x4, 3 as best player), goals finishes (1, 2, 2, 2), assists finishes (1, 2, 3, 5), points finishes (1, 1, 1, 4)


but obviously, lafleur only has two more relevant year after his first seven. on the other hand, dionne isn't really relevant until after year seven (he rattles off consecutive pearsons in years eight and nine).

knowing what we know, and with the uncertainty of ovechkin getting back to his level and malkin staying there (or staying healthy), it's hard not to go with the frenchies. but on the other hand, ovechkin and malkin both came into the league with a bang, and while dionne was a calder nominee (behind dryden and rick martin's 45 goals), i think both he and guy were behind the russians until age 23. ovechkin and malkin had two art rosses between them before the age of 23, and malkin already had his smythe.


tough poll. my inclination is on the frenchies but i don't think i can decide for sure quite yet.

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