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Old
07-19-2012, 01:23 AM
  #76
Ice-Tray
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
What ICLN said, right now James Neal is MUCH better than Alfy. Not close.
Can't and won't ever say that. Neal has youth over Alfie, but he will never be a better player. Shame on you, and you.... Kids these days, no loyalty...

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Old
07-19-2012, 10:47 AM
  #77
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Can't and won't ever say that. Neal has youth over Alfie, but he will never be a better player. Shame on you, and you.... Kids these days, no loyalty...
Loyalty shouldn't equate to bias and irrational thinking: that causes a lot of problems in the world and has been responsible for the deaths of millions.

Drama aside, I love Alfy as much as the next guy, but he's not a very good player anymore. He's a second liner at best while Neal is a sure fire #1 winger. Alfy obviously has intangible qualities like leadership and defensive superiority but he'a not even in the same realm as Neal in offensive ability.

Shame on you for thinking otherwise.

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Old
07-19-2012, 11:15 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Loyalty shouldn't equate to bias and irrational thinking: that causes a lot of problems in the world and has been responsible for the deaths of millions.

Drama aside, I love Alfy as much as the next guy, but he's not a very good player anymore. He's a second liner at best while Neal is a sure fire #1 winger. Alfy obviously has intangible qualities like leadership and defensive superiority but he'a not even in the same realm as Neal in offensive ability.

Shame on you for thinking otherwise.
Alfie is still easily a 1st liner. Or, at least last year he was. He scored 59 pts in 75 games (60th in NHL), a 65 pt pace, while easily being the player to carry the brunt of the offensive load while playing an equal role with Turris defensively. Of guys with more pts than him, only 5-7 had less ice time. Alfie was a #2 or 3 fwd on a playoff team. He scored more than Getzlaf, Ryan and Nash in fewer games.

Shame on you for being condescendingly wrong.

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Old
07-19-2012, 11:21 AM
  #79
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Are people seriously arguing Alfredsson is currently better than Neal? o_O

Alfredsson's peak is something that Neal will probably never touch, but right now it's not really close.

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Old
07-19-2012, 11:25 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by CJam613 View Post
Are people seriously arguing Alfredsson is currently better than Neal? o_O

Alfredsson's peak is something that Neal will probably never touch, but right now it's not really close.
Thats not what I was arguing, I think one guy did though purely out of loyalty.

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Old
07-19-2012, 11:31 AM
  #81
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Thats not what I was arguing, I think one guy did though purely out of loyalty.
No I know I was already posting before you posted. I agree that he produced well last year though and hopefully he can do the same this year. We don't need him to be James Neal for him to be effective for Ottawa.

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Old
07-19-2012, 11:38 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Loyalty shouldn't equate to bias and irrational thinking: that causes a lot of problems in the world and has been responsible for the deaths of millions.

Drama aside, I love Alfy as much as the next guy, but he's not a very good player anymore. He's a second liner at best while Neal is a sure fire #1 winger. Alfy obviously has intangible qualities like leadership and defensive superiority but he'a not even in the same realm as Neal in offensive ability.

Shame on you for thinking otherwise.
You obviously don't love Alfie as much as the next guy, not a very rationale statement, especially when you follow it by cutting him down.

Dude, I'm assuming that you can separate entertainment from global politics in your head, I know I can.

Listen, there is really nothing rationale about being a sports fan at all. Getting emotional about a game, spending hoards of cash on something so meaningless in the grand scheme of things, come on, trying to sell yourself as rationale makes me laugh.

Being a sports fan is all about irrational thinking, and if you think yourself incapable of it, that is seriously your loss.

For me, I'll never utter or write the words claiming that Neal is better than our captain. If that makes me responsible for the death of millions, so be it.

There are some things I won't do regardless of how I feel inside. I won't publicly insult my friends, family, or the captain of my hockey team. I know, I know, irrational behaviour, but there's something to be said about that kind of loyalty.

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Old
07-19-2012, 11:44 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Ice-Tray View Post
You obviously don't love Alfie as much as the next guy, not a very rationale statement, especially when you follow it by cutting him down.

Dude, I'm assuming that you can separate entertainment from global politics in your head, I know I can.

Listen, there is really nothing rationale about being a sports fan at all. Getting emotional about a game, spending hoards of cash on something so meaningless in the grand scheme of things, come on, trying to sell yourself as rationale makes me laugh.

Being a sports fan is all about irrational thinking, and if you think yourself incapable of it, that is seriously your loss.

For me, I'll never utter or write the words claiming that Neal is better than our captain. If that makes me responsible for the death of millions, so be it.

There are some things I won't do regardless of how I feel inside. I won't publicly insult my friends, family, or the captain of my hockey team. I know, I know, irrational behaviour, but there's something to be said about that kind of loyalty.
I don't see anything wrong with Sureves' post. Like he stated, being a fan of a team or a player doesn't mean people have to write accolades about the team or player. It's perfectly fine for people to be objective and critical.

Alfredsson has been a great player for the team and a model citizen for the organization and the city. His on-ice performance, however, has decreased. He doesn't quite have the burst that he once had and he cannot take over games like he did in his prime. None of this is surprising since he's 39 years old (40 in December).

And James Neal, right now, is a better player than Alfredsson. Neal is only 24 years old (25 in September), so he has a lot more going for him. Whether he'll have the career that Alfredsson has had remains to be seen.

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Old
07-19-2012, 12:08 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
I don't see anything wrong with Sureves' post. Like he stated, being a fan of a team or a player doesn't mean people have to write accolades about the team or player. It's perfectly fine for people to be objective and critical.

Alfredsson has been a great player for the team and a model citizen for the organization and the city. His on-ice performance, however, has decreased. He doesn't quite have the burst that he once had and he cannot take over games like he did in his prime. None of this is surprising since he's 39 years old (40 in December).

And James Neal, right now, is a better player than Alfredsson. Neal is only 24 years old (25 in September), so he has a lot more going for him. Whether he'll have the career that Alfredsson has had remains to be seen.
Not saying Neal isn't beter at this point then Alfie, but the guy got some pretty favourable ice time. Included below is last season for both, and alfie's last pt/g season for comparisson sake. He never had the same level of opportunity that Neal was given this season; low QOC, high QOT, high zone starts.

SEASONNAMEGPCorsi QoCCorsi QoTCorsi RelativeCorsi OnOff Zone Start %Off Zone Finish %
2011-2012 JAMESNEAL 80-0.52812.79210.217.1064.455.2
2011-2012 DANIELALFREDSSON75-0.2636.35013.414.5958.352.7
2007-2008 DANIELALFREDSSON700.4034.0378.08.1359.054.3

Alfie is past prime, but Neal is hard to judge, as he may be benefiting more from his situation then some would care to admit.

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Old
07-19-2012, 12:14 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
I don't see anything wrong with Sureves' post. Like he stated, being a fan of a team or a player doesn't mean people have to write accolades about the team or player. It's perfectly fine for people to be objective and critical.

Alfredsson has been a great player for the team and a model citizen for the organization and the city. His on-ice performance, however, has decreased. He doesn't quite have the burst that he once had and he cannot take over games like he did in his prime. None of this is surprising since he's 39 years old (40 in December).

And James Neal, right now, is a better player than Alfredsson. Neal is only 24 years old (25 in September), so he has a lot more going for him. Whether he'll have the career that Alfredsson has had remains to be seen.
I'm not as serious as the post sounds

Just explaining that being a sports fan is inherently irrational, and so my refusal to support claims that Neal is better than Daniel frikken Alfredsson, fits right in. Even more so than the opposite!

Treachery!

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07-19-2012, 12:42 PM
  #86
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Alfredsson still easily is a first liner and could have gotten more points last year if he was on the first line. We needed to balance the lineups so Alfredsson went on the second line and for him to save more energy for the playoffs. He was an absolute TANK in game 7 who remembers that.

He is our best winger, easily.

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07-19-2012, 01:35 PM
  #87
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He is our best winger, easily.
Through unmatched effort and heart alone, which was a little sad to see at his age (and makes it apparent he'll never be replaceable)

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07-19-2012, 01:48 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Loyalty shouldn't equate to bias and irrational thinking: that causes a lot of problems in the world and has been responsible for the deaths of millions.

Drama aside, I love Alfy as much as the next guy, but he's not a very good player anymore. He's a second liner at best while Neal is a sure fire #1 winger. Alfy obviously has intangible qualities like leadership and defensive superiority but he'a not even in the same realm as Neal in offensive ability.

Shame on you for thinking otherwise.
Not sure if serious?

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Old
07-19-2012, 02:32 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Ice-Tray View Post
I'm not as serious as the post sounds

Just explaining that being a sports fan is inherently irrational, and so my refusal to support claims that Neal is better than Daniel frikken Alfredsson, fits right in. Even more so than the opposite!

Treachery!
Ok. I do agree with you that being a sports fan - especially one that is emotionally invested in a team - is irrational. There was a survey that asked men whether they cried when their child took her/his first step or when their team won a major championship. The vast majority replied the latter.

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Old
07-19-2012, 02:56 PM
  #90
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Alfie is still easily a 1st liner. Or, at least last year he was. He scored 59 pts in 75 games (60th in NHL), a 65 pt pace, while easily being the player to carry the brunt of the offensive load while playing an equal role with Turris defensively. Of guys with more pts than him, only 5-7 had less ice time. Alfie was a #2 or 3 fwd on a playoff team. He scored more than Getzlaf, Ryan and Nash in fewer games.

Shame on you for being condescendingly wrong.
It all depends what we mean by a "1st liner" if you mean someone who is one of the best 90 forwards in the NHL, then yeah sure he probably is.

So is Vrbata, Ryder, Fleischmann, Jokinen, Desharnais, Dupuis, Michalek (all ahead of Alfy) and so are Fisher and Prospal.

If that's what we are calling a 1st liner then sure, I'll retract my statement and agree that Alfy is a first liner.

Now let me go back to what I was originally saying: Alfy is nowhere close to as good as Neal at this point in time. This the same James Neal who was #7 in league scoring talling 40 goals and 81 points. Better supporting cast? Sure. But he's better than Alfy and it's as simple as that.

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07-19-2012, 04:15 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
So is Vrbata, Ryder, Fleischmann, Jokinen, Desharnais, Dupuis, Michalek (all ahead of Alfy) and so are Fisher and Prospal.

If that's what we are calling a 1st liner then sure, I'll retract my statement and agree that Alfy is a first liner.
You've hit an all-time low with this post. Lmao... I'm not trying to insult you but seriously?

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07-19-2012, 04:51 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
You've hit an all-time low with this post. Lmao... I'm not trying to insult you but seriously?
I don't understand what you mean. He said Alfy is a top 60 forward in the NHL because he was #59 in scoring. Those guys were ahead of him in scoring, they are also first line forwards by that logic.

If that's the basis upon which we are assessing top line forwards, then I'm fully prepared to concede Alfy is a top line forward along with those guys.

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Old
07-21-2012, 04:05 PM
  #93
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Right now on Who's Better, Pietrangelo and Crosby are nip and tuck.

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07-21-2012, 05:24 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
I don't understand what you mean. He said Alfy is a top 60 forward in the NHL because he was #59 in scoring. Those guys were ahead of him in scoring, they are also first line forwards by that logic.

If that's the basis upon which we are assessing top line forwards, then I'm fully prepared to concede Alfy is a top line forward along with those guys.
Alfredsson is still pretty easily a first line player in the NHL. Are you saying he is not? He still can contribute 60+ points while playing a solid 2 way game, leadership, all-around etc...

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07-21-2012, 05:51 PM
  #95
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Not saying Neal isn't beter at this point then Alfie, but the guy got some pretty favourable ice time. Included below is last season for both, and alfie's last pt/g season for comparisson sake. He never had the same level of opportunity that Neal was given this season; low QOC, high QOT, high zone starts.

SEASONNAMEGPCorsi QoCCorsi QoTCorsi RelativeCorsi OnOff Zone Start %Off Zone Finish %
2011-2012 JAMESNEAL 80-0.52812.79210.217.1064.455.2
2011-2012 DANIELALFREDSSON75-0.2636.35013.414.5958.352.7
2007-2008 DANIELALFREDSSON700.4034.0378.08.1359.054.3

Alfie is past prime, but Neal is hard to judge, as he may be benefiting more from his situation then some would care to admit.
You don't even need all these crazy statistics. James Neal scored almost half of his goals on the PP. I'd say he benefitted from playing with Malkin in a situation that gives them lots of time and space to produce. Guy doesn't even kill penalties. Meanwhile, 40-year-old Alfie had 3 SHG.

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07-21-2012, 07:39 PM
  #96
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Currnt result for Crosby vs. Peitrangelo:

Crosby: 53.8%
Pietrangelo: 46.1%

LOL. Whoever says that Crosby is universally loved/the posterboy have no idea what they're talking about.

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07-21-2012, 07:47 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by AlfieDavidThoreau View Post
Currnt result for Crosby vs. Peitrangelo:

Crosby: 53.8%
Pietrangelo: 46.1%

LOL. Whoever says that Crosby is universally loved/the posterboy have no idea what they're talking about.
Leads me to believe Petro would be winning the pole if he played in Canada.

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07-21-2012, 08:25 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlfieDavidThoreau View Post
Currnt result for Crosby vs. Peitrangelo:

Crosby: 53.8%
Pietrangelo: 46.1%

LOL. Whoever says that Crosby is universally loved/the posterboy have no idea what they're talking about.
Its amazing what being away from the game almost a season can do and also what hyping a young up and comer can do. Just like Karlsson, Pietrangelo is gonna have huge expectations to fill next season. I bet a lot of Blues fans will be disappointed if he doesn't get a Norris nomination.

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07-21-2012, 08:31 PM
  #99
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You don't even need all these crazy statistics. James Neal scored almost half of his goals on the PP. I'd say he benefitted from playing with Malkin in a situation that gives them lots of time and space to produce. Guy doesn't even kill penalties. Meanwhile, 40-year-old Alfie had 3 SHG.
Well, that's another issue, as all those crazy statistics were even strength. Don't get me wrong, Neal is a quality top 6 player, but you put Colby Armstrong beside Crosby and he'll net you 40 pts in 47 games, and well, since then, not so much.

Neal is reaping the benefits of great chemistry with Malkin, but I have my doubts he's a pt/g player without him.

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Old
07-21-2012, 08:35 PM
  #100
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Anyone else think this will turn into a Hall vs Eberle thing thanks to Oiler fans?

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