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TSN Poll: Who's Better - Karlsson vs Letang

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Old
07-22-2012, 04:54 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Sorry View Post
Again, the award is to the best defenseman. Create a new award for offensive d-men if the role of playing actual defense is tossed aside for offensive play.
defensemen describes where on the ice you line up. the award goes to the best overall player who plays the defensemen position, not the defensemen who plays the best defense. Why should offense be discounted? Why don't they make a defensive d-man award? Give it to Girardi or McDonough. They were better defensively than Weber or Chara.

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07-22-2012, 10:07 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
yeah, you are comparing the norris winner to a guy that's never been nominated.

people keep harping on karlsson's defense, but last season overall letang was no prize on his own zone.
I do think with the retirement of Lidstrom, we've seen the end of the Norris going to the most well rounded defenseman, and rather whoever gets the most points will win the trophy. Not how it should be, but that's how I think it will be.

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07-22-2012, 10:55 PM
  #78
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I do think with the retirement of Lidstrom, we've seen the end of the Norris going to the most well rounded defenseman, and rather whoever gets the most points will win the trophy. Not how it should be, but that's how I think it will be.
When is the last time a guy has won because he was a complete offensive stud? It's very rare. It takes a season like this where he blew everyone else away in points. 25 more points than the next closest. Tied for most goals from D. 9 more ES goals than Weber who he was tied with for total goals. 5 more ES goals than the next closest in Yandle. 10 up on Campbell in assists. tied 10th overall in the league for scoring. Tied Malkin and Thornton for 3rd in assists. A defensemen hasn't put up this many more points than the next closest defenseman in a long time.

I guess my question is what are you basing that prediction on? Offensive production has been a part of the Norris equation for a long time. I don't think its changing, I just think we've seen two offensive d-men in Green and Karlsson stand out more than we had in a long time.

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07-22-2012, 11:06 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
When is the last time a guy has won because he was a complete offensive stud? It's very rare. It takes a season like this where he blew everyone else away in points. 25 more points than the next closest. Tied for most goals from D. 9 more ES goals than Weber who he was tied with for total goals. 5 more ES goals than the next closest in Yandle. 10 up on Campbell in assists. tied 10th overall in the league for scoring. Tied Malkin and Thornton for 3rd in assists. A defensemen hasn't put up this many more points than the next closest defenseman in a long time.

I guess my question is what are you basing that prediction on? Offensive production has been a part of the Norris equation for a long time. I don't think its changing, I just think we've seen two offensive d-men in Green and Karlsson stand out more than we had in a long time.
A guy hasn't won because he's an offensive stud in a long time...mainly because Nick Lidstrom has owned the trophy for the last 10 years, and was the undisputed best defenseman in the league.

We'll see where the voting goes, but now that the stalwart is no longer in the league, this could go one of two ways, and with where the game is moving, I think it's going to go towards the guy who puts up the most points.

The point of contention will always be, does the Norris go to the best OVERALL defenseman? If yes, it shouldn't matter how many points a guy puts up as long as they are respectable.

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07-22-2012, 11:27 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
A guy hasn't won because he's an offensive stud in a long time...mainly because Nick Lidstrom has owned the trophy for the last 10 years, and was the undisputed best defenseman in the league.

We'll see where the voting goes, but now that the stalwart is no longer in the league, this could go one of two ways, and with where the game is moving, I think it's going to go towards the guy who puts up the most points.

The point of contention will always be, does the Norris go to the best OVERALL defenseman? If yes, it shouldn't matter how many points a guy puts up as long as they are respectable.
Respectable in what way? In general? Chara and Weber both put up a very respectable number right around 50. Compared to Karlsson? Ya, not even close. Should the 25+ point difference (almost 50% more points than Weber or Chara) be ignored because Weber and Chara's numbers were respectable? Offense makes up half of the game. There's no reason it shouldn't make up half of the award.

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07-23-2012, 08:28 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Respectable in what way? In general? Chara and Weber both put up a very respectable number right around 50. Compared to Karlsson? Ya, not even close. Should the 25+ point difference (almost 50% more points than Weber or Chara) be ignored because Weber and Chara's numbers were respectable? Offense makes up half of the game. There's no reason it shouldn't make up half of the award.
Respectable as in a guy who is shutting opposing players down, but is only getting 22 points a year shouldn't win, the same way a guy who puts up 70+ points and plays average defense shouldn't win it.

A guy like Shea Weber who is a complete defensive stud and offensive force from the back end should win that award with 25 less points 10 times out of 10, IMO.

Offense is 50% of the game, but that's not 50% of a defenseman's duty. His main duty is being a defenseman. If the points come, they come, and they will come for great defensemen.

Karlsson is multiple tears lower than the top defensive players in the league. Him winning the award spurred what I said, and I think that's the direction the league is going. The award won't be about the guy who has the biggest impact on all 200 feet, but rather the guy who can light a scoresheet up.


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07-23-2012, 09:18 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
Respectable as in a guy who is shutting opposing players down, but is only getting 22 points a year shouldn't win, the same way a guy who puts up 70+ points and plays average defense shouldn't win it.

A guy like Shea Weber who is a complete defensive stud and offensive force from the back end should win that award with 25 less points 10 times out of 10, IMO.

Offense is 50% of the game, but that's not 50% of a defenseman's duty. His main duty is being a defenseman. If the points come, they come, and they will come for great defensemen.

Karlsson is multiple tears lower than the top defensive players in the league. Him winning the award spurred what I said, and I think that's the direction the league is going. The award won't be about the guy who has the biggest impact on all 200 feet, but rather the guy who can light a scoresheet up.
I still think you are downplaying just how much more offense he brought this year than other d-men. I don't think you'll see guys winning the Norris because they scored an extra 5-10 points than the next guy if their defense is well below them. We saw that with Green. Karlsson put up almost 60% more points than Weber. 78 to 49.

I also disagree with the notion that a defenseman's main duty has to be playing defense in their own end. Their main duty is to help their team win. Karlsson and Weber had a very similar overall impact on the ice this year and I honestly don't care which side of the ice it was on. Impact is impact. Winning is winning. Karlsson helped his team win as much as any defensemen in the league this year. Just because he doesn't fit the normal mold of defensemen shouldn't preclude him from being recognized for that. Defenseman describes players who line up behind the forwards. They tend to focus on defense. They can be very effective focusing on offense too.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 07-23-2012 at 09:28 AM.
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Old
07-23-2012, 09:23 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I still think you are downplaying just how much more offense he brought this year than other d-men. I don't think you'll see guys winning the Norris because they scored an extra 5-10 points than the next guy if their defense is well below them. I also disagree with the notion that a defenseman's main duty has to be playing defense in their own end. Their main duty is to help their team win. Karlsson and Weber had a very similar overall impact on the ice this year and I honestly don't care which side of the ice it was on. Impact is impact. Winning is winning. Karlsson helped his team win as much as any defensemen in the league this year. Just because he doesn't fit the normal mold of defensemen shouldn't preclude him from being recognized for that. Defenseman describes players who line up behind the forwards. That's it.
No. It doesn't. A defenseman is responsible for shutting opposing players down, and aiding in keeping pucks out of his net, first and foremost. Impact isn't impact, especially when you're talking about an award that goes to the best defenseman. The best defenseman should be elite offensively and defensively...that's impact. Weber is...Karlsson is not.

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07-23-2012, 09:33 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
No. It doesn't. A defenseman is responsible for shutting opposing players down, and aiding in keeping pucks out of his net, first and foremost. Impact isn't impact, especially when you're talking about an award that goes to the best defenseman. The best defenseman should be elite offensively and defensively...that's impact. Weber is...Karlsson is not.
If you ran a team, that's what your defensemen would be responsible for. That is historically what they've been there to do. That doesn't mean it's what they have to do. And keeping the puck in the opponents zone helps keep it out of the net, does it not? Really though, all that matters is putting more pucks in the other net than you let go in your own.

If Weber is elite offensively we better come up with a term better than elite to describe Karlsson's offense. a 59% increase in offense from Weber to Karlsson is ridiculous. Do you think Karlsson was 59% less effective at keeping pucks out of his own net? Hell, we'll even let you weigh it to the defensive side. Do you think Karlsson was 40% less effective at keeping pucks out of his own net?

The Norris goes to the "defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position". All around ability doesn't mean mostly defensive ability. Offense is roughly half of all-around-ability.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 07-23-2012 at 09:47 AM.
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Old
07-23-2012, 10:11 AM
  #85
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If you ran a team, that's what your defensemen would be responsible for. That is historically what they've been there to do. That doesn't mean it's what they have to do. And keeping the puck in the opponents zone helps keep it out of the net, does it not? Really though, all that matters is putting more pucks in the other net than you let go in your own. f

If Weber is elite offensively we better come up with a term better than elite to describe Karlsson's offense. a 59% increase in offense from Weber to Karlsson is ridiculous. Do you think Karlsson was 59% less effective at keeping pucks out of his own net? Hell, we'll even let you weigh it to the defensive side. Do you think Karlsson was 40% less effective at keeping pucks out of his own net?

The Norris goes to the "defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position". All around ability doesn't mean mostly defensive ability. Offense is roughly half of all-around-ability.
All around ability means exactly what it says. A guy who can do everything.

Weber is elite offensively and defensively. He's the best shutdown defenseman in the game, and he's good for 15-20 goals a season. Karlsson is elite offensively and average defensively. Karlsson won the award because he had the most points. Shea Weber embodies the Norris, IMO. He can do absolutely everything on the ice, and that's what the award means. He doesn't produce the most points, but he without a shadow of a doubt has the ability.

Agree to disagree. We are not going to see eye-to-eye on this.

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07-23-2012, 10:15 AM
  #86
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All around ability means exactly what it says. A guy who can do everything.

Weber is elite offensively and defensively. He's the best shutdown defenseman in the game, and he's good for 15-20 goals a season. Karlsson is elite offensively and average defensively. Karlsson won the award because he had the most points. Shea Weber embodies the Norris, IMO. He can do absolutely everything on the ice, and that's what the award means. He doesn't produce the most points, but he without a shadow of a doubt has the ability.

Agree to disagree. We are not going to see eye-to-eye on this.
He's certainly not the best shutdown defenseman in the league, but that's an argument for a different day I guess. agree to disagree.

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07-23-2012, 10:16 AM
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He's certainly not the best shutdown defenseman in the league, but that's an argument for a different day I guess. agree to disagree.
And Malkin's not the best center on his own team.

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07-23-2012, 10:17 AM
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And Malkin's not the best center on his own team.
i was just disagreeing with your comment that he's the best shutdown d-man in the league. He's not. Shea Weber is an amazing player. Probably the best defenseman in the league. Had he won the Norris, I wouldn't be upset at all. But I just see how Karlsson could win it over him without being an outrage.

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07-26-2012, 04:40 PM
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http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?id=9706

Hall vs. Eberle final, book it.

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07-26-2012, 04:51 PM
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http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?id=9706

Hall vs. Eberle final, book it.
OHWT F...

Scientific proof of Crosby-hate. He's losing to Eberle and not by a small margin. Almost 18%.


Cue the mid-season "Eberle + 1st for Crosby" proposals.

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07-26-2012, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
OHWT F...

Scientific proof of Crosby-hate. He's losing to Eberle and not by a small margin. Almost 18%.


Cue the mid-season "Eberle + 1st for Crosby" proposals.
wrong team's adding the first

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07-26-2012, 05:15 PM
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OHWT F...

Scientific proof of Crosby-hate. He's losing to Eberle and not by a small margin. Almost 18%.


Cue the mid-season "Eberle + 1st for Crosby" proposals.
Edmonton fans claim they're doing that for fun. Something tells me that they would not feel the same should the roles have been reversed.

Proof: Stamkos is losing by a decent amount to Hall as well.

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07-26-2012, 08:15 PM
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How do you get to the Stamkos vs. Hall page?

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07-26-2012, 10:17 PM
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How do you get to the Stamkos vs. Hall page?
That vote is closed. Troll mission successful.

The funny thing about all this is the poll is attached to a TSN show called "That's Hockey" and as such, their panel is forced to take its results seriously. They phoned Hall today to interview him about his "victory" over Stamkos. He seemed, genuinely, stunned.

Full disclosure: no one in Edmonton (or anywhere) thinks that Eberle is better than Crosby (or that Hall is better than Stamkos). We just think the whole poll is ridiculous (the obvious answer to the best under 25 question is Crosby) and we are having a little fun with it.

You have to suffer from a Peter Laviolette level of delusion to think any current player is better than Sid.


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07-26-2012, 10:21 PM
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That vote is closed. Troll mission successful.

We just think the whole poll is ridiculous
honest question: what particular aspect of the poll made you all feel it was so ridiculous as to warrant a troll job?

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07-26-2012, 10:27 PM
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honest question: what particular aspect of the poll made you all feel it was so ridiculous as to warrant a troll job?
Two of the unquestionably 3 best players in the world (Crosby and Stamkos) were included in a 16 player bracket to determine the best player among a relatively small subset of the league's population.

It also included a disproportionate amount of players from Canadian teams due to it being put forth by a Canadian television show.

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Old
07-26-2012, 10:59 PM
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I'd rather have Letang. But Karlsson is in another tier offensively.
Karlsson is a beast offensively for sure, but keep in mind that Letang was on pace for over 65 points last season as well!

For right now Id rather Letang but thats just cuz of the hitting and defense, but Karlsson is hella young and could very well get better in his own end. Already is filthy good offensively.

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07-26-2012, 11:10 PM
  #98
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Looks like Crosby has somewhat risen from the dead, but there's still some ways to go.

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