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Old
07-18-2012, 12:53 AM
  #76
Henkka
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I don't agree.
Adam Henrique. 3rd round pick. 44 points in his draft year. 77 points in his fourth year of junior. 50 points as an AHL rookie. 50 points as 22 year old NHL rookie.
Andrew Shaw drafted as an overager at 20 years old. Never scored more than 50 points in the OHL. Scores 23 points in 38 AHL games and makes a decent contribution at the NHL level (identical to his AHL stats).

it doesn't seem to matter much if you're 10th overall like Cody Hodgson or a third rounder like Henrique.

This notion that you need to light up the AHL is completely and utterly bogus.

Mursak should have been in the NHL in 2010-11. Instead, we wasted him for a year so we could have Modano and Holmstrom et al.

Nyquist was 20 and nearly 21 at the end of his sophomore year at Maine. There was no need for him to go back to college after that.

We've got NHL talent in our system. And we keep bottle necking it.

If we're bottlenecking it for elite top sixers or even high caliber bottom sixers, I am all for it.

But if we're bottlenecking it to pay Sammuelsson $3M a year and to extent Bertuzzi for two more years, and for decent depth guys like Miller... I think we're shooting ourselves in the foot.
Tatar hasn't even seen the 1st line at AHL yet. You have to think him differently, because he hasn't had 3-4 years at junior leagues. He is small guy and still maturing. Not some physically ready like Sheahan. And Nyquist have said himself that wasn't ready. Maybe he also wanted that education.

Mr. Bob, with all politeness, are you sure, you are not just overanalyzing again?

Brendan Smith is the only guy IMO who could have been in NHL earlier. But not any of those forwards.

But you got a point that we should not do this on purpose, if the real talent is there.

Are you scaring that we miss some great talent when not giving a NHL sport for him enough early? I don't think there's any risk for that, because, if there's a real talent, he will show and blow his way immediately to NHL. So far he haven't seen it. Filppula was the last one, who was forced down and Babcock wanted him up. He is now, after 6 years, a 2nd liner.

Great talents will push through no matter what. We can't miss them. They will show it, by far difference to anybody else.

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07-18-2012, 01:07 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I don't agree.
Adam Henrique. 3rd round pick. 44 points in his draft year. 77 points in his fourth year of junior. 50 points as an AHL rookie. 50 points as 22 year old NHL rookie.
Andrew Shaw drafted as an overager at 20 years old. Never scored more than 50 points in the OHL. Scores 23 points in 38 AHL games and makes a decent contribution at the NHL level (identical to his AHL stats).

it doesn't seem to matter much if you're 10th overall like Cody Hodgson or a third rounder like Henrique.

This notion that you need to light up the AHL is completely and utterly bogus.

Mursak should have been in the NHL in 2010-11. Instead, we wasted him for a year so we could have Modano and Holmstrom et al.

Nyquist was 20 and nearly 21 at the end of his sophomore year at Maine. There was no need for him to go back to college after that.

We've got NHL talent in our system. And we keep bottle necking it.

If we're bottlenecking it for elite top sixers or even high caliber bottom sixers, I am all for it.

But if we're bottlenecking it to pay Sammuelsson $3M a year and to extent Bertuzzi for two more years, and for decent depth guys like Miller... I think we're shooting ourselves in the foot.
You're still wrong on Nyquist , but I'll give you Mursak too, to go along with Smith. So I do partially agree with you. But let's move on....

Which forward prospects, right now, should be added to the team? Tatar and Andersson? I wouldn't be opposed to that, but I also don't think either one comes close to contributing as much as Samuelsson and Bertuzzi, nor do they fill the same roles. So I think this year you have to look at the Millers, Eaves, and Clearys of the team. It'll be interesting to see what happens between now and October though. We have way too many forwards and something has to give. By my count, including the prospects that could see a call-up this year, we have 19 forwards. And we're trying to add another. Which would seem to be about 4 or 5 too many. Where are all these forwards going to end up?

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07-18-2012, 01:11 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Where are all these forwards going to end up?
It's quite obvious somebody or -bodies will be traded for a defenceman. But that's only partial solution.

Another plan looks to be trade quantity for quality (alleged Rick Nash proposal).

If nothing happens, then they drop some waiver-free guys to AHL and try to continue negoatiating trades. If and when the trade happens, then call the guys up.

Last option is to waive some of the weakest links (probably Emmerton or Eaves, if it's only smoke-screen to say he's "full healthy"). Training camp will be interesting battle-field...


Last edited by Henkka: 07-18-2012 at 01:18 AM.
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07-18-2012, 01:23 AM
  #79
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Training camp will be interesting battle-field...
Indeed. I've been to two in the past, but this one is shaping up to be a real interesting one. Wish I could go again.

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07-18-2012, 01:51 AM
  #80
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People still mad over Quincey going to arbitration? What was he supposed to do, wait for Kenny to lowball him until he signs a contract? Sit and hope things work itself out? He used his only leverage in this situation to get a deal done sooner rather than later, I'm fine with that and don't see the big deal in it. I don't think that automatically means Quincey wants out at first chance either, he seemed pretty happy getting traded back here.

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07-18-2012, 02:24 AM
  #81
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Whatever. I like Abby. You haters can go screw yourselves!

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07-18-2012, 04:32 AM
  #82
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Abdelkader is the definition of mediocre. I look forward to another subpar season from him.

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07-18-2012, 09:18 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
I think there's a fair chance someone has value for the guy that's along the lines of LA going gaga for Avery (though not quite to the extent of drawing in a guy like Schneider). Then again, I was aiming for a guy to fill out the bottom third of our blueline, someone along the lines of the rumored Yannick Weber from a week or two ago.

I think we see Abdelkader pretty similarly, though. I just disliked the idea of the near $2m tag being thrown around a few weeks back and see as expendable at that price. for the now rumored $1.25m? I can deal with it.

I'm hoping we don't see Flip moved, though. It might bring an upgrade on the blueline, but I don't want to see our top6 after that - unless Holland's moved hard on Doan/Semin, preferably both.
OK, we were going for different things in terms of D. I think the Wings need a top pairing guy to solidify the back end. I am honestly not in favor of adding a bottom three kind of defender to what I view as an already muddled situation. I'm aiming for clarity. Make Kronwall and player X the clear go-to unit, and let the rest sort themselves out. We only have 6 D slated for the team, including Q, so there is definitely going to be someone added. I am hoping Holland uses assets to make a big acquisition.

I totally agree that if we trade Flip then we need to sign Doan and/or Semin, preferably both, to replenish the top six. But I would absolutely do this for the right defender.


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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
I've generally been of the opinion I could take or leave Abby. He's at his best as a winger, he just flat out sucks as a center. So if you need to pay a premium because he's a center who can take faceoffs I don't see the value there. Anything less than $1.5mm is fine given the current cap and that he has the potential to become a bit better. I just can't get worked up over him at all.

For Q they better take him to arbitration and ask for a 1 year deal. I can't see tying up any more than 1 year worth of cap space on a guy who did not look good when he was traded here. You can't make a long term commitment to a guy who you do not know whether he can fill the role you traded him for and who has basically been cast aside by three franchises.
They did. I get the distinct impression that Q will get a one year tryout, whether it comes through and agreement or via an arbitrator's decision. KH doesn't want to sign him for longer than 1-2 years until we see how he fits in here. With that in mind, Q will get a 1 year deal and then attempt to cash in... that doesn't necessarily mean he won't cash in here, however.

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Originally Posted by Borlag View Post
Perhaps it's simply because Babcock saw Abby in another role there, or take on more responsibilities/bigger role on the ice. Things aren't always so black and white in that you don't always see everything right away. Try out different things, such as give the opportunity for other people to stand up and shine, and they just might. If you never give them that opportunity, then you can bet they wont be taking that.
That's also what I took Babcock's statement to mean. IMO, Babcock has a bad habit of pigeon-holing players. He sees them in a very specific role, and then gives them no opportunity to break out of it. That's why Yzerman almost retired mid-season, he had been relegated to garbage time and wasn't being allowed a shot at doing more.

Hopefully this will give Gator an opportunity. I think he has better hands then he has been allowed to show.


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Originally Posted by garry1221 View Post

This is the biggest question spinning in my head. We signed 3 depth players while going after the biggest FA's. To me, it showed that Holland was hedging his bets in case Plan A fell through, we'd have the warm bodies to pull off a trade or two. This is why it's so hard for me to believe the quotes where Kenny says he's happy with the team and doesn't plan on making any more moves. Things just don't add up.
There are two ways to take what KH did. One is what you're saying.... he stocked up on assets in case he needs to wheel and deal. The other is that he was so unhappy with the bottom six he is retooling it. Miller, Eaves, Emmerton and Mursak are all in peril of being gone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
I doubt that is what is going on. If they are talking about 1- and 2-year deals, and are reportedly close to getting something done, then I tend to believe it will be a 1- or 2-year deal. I don't think Holland is or will be "caving."
Exactly how I see it. There is no way KH will be giving Quincey more than a 1 or 2 year deal at this point.

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07-18-2012, 10:19 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by HardingsJockstrap View Post
I like the guy on this team, but some people might think he is redundant, with Miller, Eaves and the rest of our bottom 6 forwards. He's a 30 point scorer, is our most physical player and can fill in on the second line when needed. He does take some stupid penalties from time to time, but he's only played 2 full years, so he's still getting used to the NHL, I suspect we'll see his biggest year this year, playing with Helm and Tootoo (Grind Line 2.0).
The argument is whether it's better for the present and future Wings to keep the better players in Miller and Eaves or the much younger players in Abby, Emmerton, and Mursak.

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Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
I like the $1.25M mentioned for Abdelkader. That would be a good deal and also makes him a trade asset.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
I want Gator back, just not at the near $2m level that was tossed around in an earlier article. This article, guessing that he'll come in around $1.25m is better, but not great.
Sounds like Helene St. James has been reading my posts... $1.25 is the number I've had slated for Abdelkader for several months.

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Originally Posted by HardingsJockstrap View Post
Hey, I was trying to be generous. What I wanted to say that he will be a 30 point 3rd/4th liner, in the Kopecky / Halischuk / Neil crowd.
Kopecky is a 40+ point 2nd line center/winger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newfy View Post
Colby Armstrong is a complete band aid and a joke of a hockey player, all my leaf fan buddies were pumped the day he got bought out. And yeah he had a career high playing with Crosby...

All of those guys are at best comoparable to Abdelkader, this is just a case of the grass is always greener. None are tougher hockey players however. With Brad May on his line, Abby ran around and played tougher I have a feeling Tootoo will rub off on him. Especially if Abdelkader is at wing.

[mod edit] You dont get tougher by adding Tootoo, you play Tootoo with ABdelkader to become a tougher team. Hes young, played with Emmerton and Homer and still hit 22 points from the 4th line and was by far our most physical forward last season.
Abdelkader is not currently a top-line player. The fact that Armstrong posted 16-2440 points in 47 games, on a line with Crosby, on a team with John Leclair (73 gp, 22-29-51), Ryan Malone (77 gp, 22-22-44), Ziggy Palffy (42 gp, 11-31-42), and Mario Lemieux (26 gp, 7-15-22). Armstrong's numbers may be inflated, but he was playing top line ahead of legit scorers and scoring nearly a point per game. Abdelkader will likely never do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newfy View Post
I kinda agree with this. At wing I think everyone will agree hes much more effective. His offense on the fourth line was pretty good though. He only had 2 less points than Miller who played on the third line most of the year. Abby was stuck playing on a line with Homer and Emmerton and still put up 22 points.

For a guy on that bad of a line those are pretty solid numbers. Not a lot of fourth liners get much more than that. I wouldnt want to see him playing over 12 minutes a night really either.

But I kinda disagree on not hitting hard. Hes definitely had his fair share of big hits and for some reason people choose to ignore them, even though the wings are softer than baby **** and hes the only consistent hitter. He's not the biggest hitter in the league, but most would call him a pretty big hitter. I'm willing to post lots of video evidence of this as well

He also has the balls to drop the gloves which no one else really does either, even though he doesnt do great he can still be a guy to help handle the pests of the league
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Tatar hasn't even seen the 1st line at AHL yet. You have to think him differently, because he hasn't had 3-4 years at junior leagues. He is small guy and still maturing. Not some physically ready like Sheahan. And Nyquist have said himself that wasn't ready. Maybe he also wanted that education.

Mr. Bob, with all politeness, are you sure, you are not just overanalyzing again?

Brendan Smith is the only guy IMO who could have been in NHL earlier. But not any of those forwards.

But you got a point that we should not do this on purpose, if the real talent is there.

Are you scaring that we miss some great talent when not giving a NHL sport for him enough early? I don't think there's any risk for that, because, if there's a real talent, he will show and blow his way immediately to NHL. So far he haven't seen it. Filppula was the last one, who was forced down and Babcock wanted him up. He is now, after 6 years, a 2nd liner.

Great talents will push through no matter what. We can't miss them. They will show it, by far difference to anybody else.

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07-18-2012, 11:24 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
I want Gator back, just not at the near $2m level that was tossed around in an earlier article. This article, guessing that he'll come in around $1.25m is better, but not great.
At what point do you just rip the band-aid off?

The guy is OK in the circle, isnt overly fast but is somewhat defensively responsible. At anything over 1.5 for a 4th liner is asinine. I don't care if he hits a lot, we could go out and get hitters.

Would you rather see Mursak/Andersson/Emmerton [one more year] given a shot at 1/2 the price or just release them essentially to waivers (yes i know andersson doesnt have to this year, but he will next year) or Abby? The kid is a no-show in the playoffs. Remember all the cup teams get clutch scoring from bottom liners.. still waiting for that with our current bottom-enders.. Cut ties now before you become too loyal. Kid is young and i am sure you could send him somewhere for some value.

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07-18-2012, 11:25 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
People still mad over Quincey going to arbitration? What was he supposed to do, wait for Kenny to lowball him until he signs a contract? Sit and hope things work itself out? He used his only leverage in this situation to get a deal done sooner rather than later, I'm fine with that and don't see the big deal in it. I don't think that automatically means Quincey wants out at first chance either, he seemed pretty happy getting traded back here.
I think people are more pissed we traded a good pick for him.

Would rather have that first and sign Colaiacovo then to have Quincey.

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07-18-2012, 12:26 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by HardingsJockstrap View Post
I like the guy on this team, but some people might think he is redundant, with Miller, Eaves and the rest of our bottom 6 forwards. He's a 30 point scorer, is our most physical player and can fill in on the second line when needed. He does take some stupid penalties from time to time, but he's only played 2 full years, so he's still getting used to the NHL, I suspect we'll see his biggest year this year, playing with Helm and Tootoo (Grind Line 2.0).
The argument is whether it's better for the present and future Wings to keep the better players in Miller and Eaves or the much younger players in Abby, Emmerton, and Mursak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
I like the $1.25M mentioned for Abdelkader. That would be a good deal and also makes him a trade asset.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
I want Gator back, just not at the near $2m level that was tossed around in an earlier article. This article, guessing that he'll come in around $1.25m is better, but not great.
Sounds like Helene St. James has been reading my posts... $1.25 is the number I've had slated for Abdelkader for several months.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HardingsJockstrap View Post
Hey, I was trying to be generous. What I wanted to say that he will be a 30 point 3rd/4th liner, in the Kopecky / Halischuk / Neil crowd.
Kopecky is a 40+ point 2nd line center/winger.

Neil posted 22 in 68 last year but is far more dominant physically than Abdelkader.

Halischuk posted 15 goals and 28 points in 73 games last year. He's well ahead of Abdelkader developmentally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newfy View Post
Colby Armstrong is a complete band aid and a joke of a hockey player, all my leaf fan buddies were pumped the day he got bought out. And yeah he had a career high playing with Crosby...

All of those guys are at best comoparable to Abdelkader, this is just a case of the grass is always greener. None are tougher hockey players however. With Brad May on his line, Abby ran around and played tougher I have a feeling Tootoo will rub off on him. Especially if Abdelkader is at wing.

[mod edit] You dont get tougher by adding Tootoo, you play Tootoo with ABdelkader to become a tougher team. Hes young, played with Emmerton and Homer and still hit 22 points from the 4th line and was by far our most physical forward last season.
Abdelkader is not currently a top-line player. The fact that Armstrong posted 16-2440 points in 47 games, on a line with Crosby, on a team with John Leclair (73 gp, 22-29-51), Ryan Malone (77 gp, 22-22-44), Ziggy Palffy (42 gp, 11-31-42), and Mario Lemieux (26 gp, 7-15-22). Armstrong's numbers may be inflated, but he was playing top line ahead of legit scorers and scoring nearly a point per game. Abdelkader will likely never do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newfy View Post
I kinda agree with this. At wing I think everyone will agree hes much more effective. His offense on the fourth line was pretty good though. He only had 2 less points than Miller who played on the third line most of the year. Abby was stuck playing on a line with Homer and Emmerton and still put up 22 points.

For a guy on that bad of a line those are pretty solid numbers. Not a lot of fourth liners get much more than that. I wouldnt want to see him playing over 12 minutes a night really either.

But I kinda disagree on not hitting hard. Hes definitely had his fair share of big hits and for some reason people choose to ignore them, even though the wings are softer than baby **** and hes the only consistent hitter. He's not the biggest hitter in the league, but most would call him a pretty big hitter. I'm willing to post lots of video evidence of this as well
I'll counter that with video evidence of the generally accepted fact that Bobby Orr was a defensive liability.

Abby played at least as many third line minutes as Miller did, and Abby also saw some second line time. There was a stretch where Abs was even put with Bert and Franzen. You're severely underrating the offensive class of his linemates, both in terms of Emmerton and Holmstrom particularly as well as his other linemates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Tatar hasn't even seen the 1st line at AHL yet. You have to think him differently, because he hasn't had 3-4 years at junior leagues. He is small guy and still maturing. Not some physically ready like Sheahan. And Nyquist have said himself that wasn't ready. Maybe he also wanted that education.

Mr. Bob, with all politeness, are you sure, you are not just overanalyzing again?

Brendan Smith is the only guy IMO who could have been in NHL earlier. But not any of those forwards.

But you got a point that we should not do this on purpose, if the real talent is there.

Are you scaring that we miss some great talent when not giving a NHL sport for him enough early? I don't think there's any risk for that, because, if there's a real talent, he will show and blow his way immediately to NHL. So far he haven't seen it. Filppula was the last one, who was forced down and Babcock wanted him up. He is now, after 6 years, a 2nd liner.

Great talents will push through no matter what. We can't miss them. They will show it, by far difference to anybody else.
Incorrect. Hudler was the last one. Made the team at 19, but was sent down during the season to "get bigger". The only thing that got bigger in the AHL were his scoring numbers. Were it not for Bowman sending him down due to his size, he'd have been in the lineup full time. Instead we had the wonderful and amazing Mark Mowers eating up a roster spot.

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07-18-2012, 12:38 PM
  #88
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Incorrect. Hudler was the last one. Made the team at 19, but was sent down during the season to "get bigger". The only thing that got bigger in the AHL were his scoring numbers. Were it not for Bowman sending him down due to his size, he'd have been in the lineup full time. Instead we had the wonderful and amazing Mark Mowers eating up a roster spot.
No, actually the last players to make the Wings before they ran out of waiver exemptions were Helm and Abdelkader. Each one was playing full-time in Detroit a year prior to having to pass through waivers. However, in Helm's case he still played a full season in GR even though he was clearly an NHL player at that point. Only under KH can a player go from spending an entire year in the AHL to starting every playoff game in the NHL, during the same season

As for Hudler, he did not make the team at 19. He only saw so much action at that time because of injuries. Once the regulars got healthy, he was demoted back to the AHL. He was inconsistent and was dealing with family issues, too. He was not ready for the big leagues.

Filppula was the last case of a player starting in the AHL, being recalled (Brad Norton got injured) and playing so well there was no way he was being sent down. It was obvious at that time Flip was one of our top 9 forwards within the organization. Sending him back to GR would have been dereliction on KH's part.

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07-18-2012, 12:38 PM
  #89
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sign him and trade him along with Franzen and a prospect for a dman who can play in our top 2

winnipeg I am talking to you....

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07-18-2012, 01:25 PM
  #90
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Kyle Quincey settles with Red Wings.

This should be interesting..

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07-18-2012, 01:31 PM
  #91
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Filppula was the last case of a player starting in the AHL, being recalled (Brad Norton got injured) and playing so well there was no way he was being sent down. It was obvious at that time Flip was one of our top 9 forwards within the organization. Sending him back to GR would have been dereliction on KH's part.
This is generally correct but it was Greg Johnson who was signed during the offseason but had to retire due to a heart ailment. Once he was off the roster the Wings were forced to bring Filppula up and he's never looked back.

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07-18-2012, 01:34 PM
  #92
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Hold your fire until the details about terms are out. Then you may fire at will.

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07-18-2012, 01:41 PM
  #93
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Kyle Quincey settles with Red Wings.

This should be interesting..
I was about to post I wanna be first!

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07-18-2012, 01:42 PM
  #94
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3.9 million x3 years.

That's my prediction

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07-18-2012, 01:42 PM
  #95
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Kyle Quincey settles with Red Wings.

This should be interesting..
Yeah I can see this being a topic that gets a ton of people happy.


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07-18-2012, 01:47 PM
  #96
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Only a two year deal. Not going to sweat the cap hit.

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07-18-2012, 01:49 PM
  #97
Henkka
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Two years 3.5 is my prediction.

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Old
07-18-2012, 01:50 PM
  #98
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I'm guessing the cap hit is going to be around $3.75.

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Old
07-18-2012, 02:29 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
At what point do you just rip the band-aid off?

The guy is OK in the circle, isnt overly fast but is somewhat defensively responsible. At anything over 1.5 for a 4th liner is asinine. I don't care if he hits a lot, we could go out and get hitters.

Would you rather see Mursak/Andersson/Emmerton [one more year] given a shot at 1/2 the price or just release them essentially to waivers (yes i know andersson doesnt have to this year, but he will next year) or Abby? The kid is a no-show in the playoffs. Remember all the cup teams get clutch scoring from bottom liners.. still waiting for that with our current bottom-enders.. Cut ties now before you become too loyal. Kid is young and i am sure you could send him somewhere for some value.
I wasn't thrilled with that amount for a fourth liner, either, until I looked around the league a bit. Having fourth liners make $1m+ isn't as uncommon as it seems it should be. What's stupid is having the ten or so bottom6 quality guys signed that we do right now, while (apparently) not going after a guy like Semin - despite his rumored problems.

You're right, though, we need to trim the fat somewhere. I think at least one or two of those bottom6 guys will be moved for a D. I know we want a top pairing guy, but despite rumors of guys like Yandle being available, I don't think they're really available for a deal unless their teams get blown away by an offer. Packaging a couple of lower half forwards for a lower half D is probably the best we can hope for. I just hope we pick a guy (like Weber, to be honest) who could have a bit of upside and could fit our system. I don't want Cory Cross redux.

Looking at our roster right now, assuming we don't sign another forward, the first guy I take off is Eaves because I don't think he'll be healthy. The second guy...I'll go with Emmerton and figure we'll move him and a pick for a D. My big hope is that Brunner looks good in camp, and that the Wings are committed to moving Nyquist into the lineup, and that Babcock is willing to shuffle a vet onto the fourth line to make sure those two make it into the top9 if they earn that opportunity in training camp.

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Old
07-18-2012, 04:27 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
I think people are more pissed we traded a good pick for him.

Would rather have that first and sign Colaiacovo then to have Quincey.
I think another part of it is the fact that Quincey is a former Wing cast-off.

Holland paid a 1st rounder to get him BACK and is now going to likely cost top-four money while fighting for the #6 job.

That's why people are mad.

And I agree with the "no Quincey trade, sign Colaiacovo" move. That would even allow for both Hudler AND Samuelsson, which puts Sammy in his proper spot depth-wise and gives the Wings real improvement. Maybe Huds/Dats/Bert, Franzen/Z/Sammy, Cleary/Filppula/Eaves, Abs/Helm/Tootoo?

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