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*OFFICIAL* Windsor Spitfires 2012-13 Season Thread (Part 3)

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08-11-2012, 11:47 AM
  #401
cfaub
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Cfaub, did the elected , by the owners, board of the OHL set the penalties? If yes than it's tough to argue there are set too high.all teams knew the risk/ reward. If its set without input maybe u have a point
I don't know for sure, maybe someone does but the impression I got was fines up to X dollar amount per incident and mainly discretionary penalties up to a set point.

My point is are those penalties in line with what is affordable to all teams? Can OS for example afford to pay the same amount, cash and picks for the same infractions or would discretionary assessment of penalties mean they would be assessed what they could pay and Windsor assessed what is deemed affordable to them. Likewise would London, believed to have a much higher cash flow be assessed a much higher penalty based on their ability to pay.

My concern is the amount of the fine is not set, just a maximum limit is set which allows for Branch or whoever to determine what is fair based on each teams ability to pay what amount.

If the amount is fixed then no issue and all teams likely are in the same position to afford the same amount. It doesn't appear that way at the moment.

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Originally Posted by aresknights View Post
Maybe the others teams did know and didn't want to rat, as it could Hurt future dealings with Gms?
Maybe they were also doing it, and didn't want rat?

Maybe a frustrated team did rat on them?

Point is we don't have enough info here. Maybe the hammer falls on other teams, may e Windsor was the only one they can get proof on?

Well
See how it plays out but for sure there are other investigations that have happened a d some ongoing and some more too come but as of now only has been caught.
I think we were both saying the same type of thing. My point was it is unreasonable to think that no other team knew about actions like this or that no orther team would be taking such actions.

Of course they are not going to say something which makes them just as guilty but in order to maintain a working relationship as well as try to have or gain the same competitive advantages they are not going to say anything.

My issue is with the fans who have come here coming down hard on the Spits when the reality is their own team was either doing similar things, attemting to do similar things or knew full well that these actions were happening and likely not doing anything about it.

Petes fans for example come in here ripping on the team, fine. If Watson for example had been one of the players then Windsor geting him into the league also benefitted the Petes when they dealt for him then again when they dealt him.

They are looking at Windsor's "guilt" while ignoring their own part in this by dealing for the player if they knew about the situation in the first place.

In life you can be charged for committing a crime but also for benefitting from the proceeds of a crime even though you did not committ it.

This is of course a hypothetical situation I am using.

As for hoping Windsor turns whistle blower, I disagree with this idea.

Again, Windsor has to be able to maintain a working relationship with the rest of the league. Turn whistle blower and you are affecting that relationship as well as the league as a whole. Like it or not the team/owners need the league to be successful in orderr to protect their investment and financial future.

I think, as I said before that the appeal results in a reduced penalty, it would benefit everyone in the end compared to where things stand currently.

The team restores some of its public image with an appeal that shows things as being not as severe as first reported.

The league show some public control over its members which allows them to be taken seriously when it comes to league policies over these types of issues.

The rest of the owners avoid being painted with the same brush, regardless of what they know or have done maintaining a level of respectability while still being able to publicly support Windsor as a good organization that was a bit over zealous with their competitiveness.

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08-11-2012, 11:56 AM
  #402
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IN this case it will be heard by the board of governors with Ottawa's Hunt in charge
With discipline matters appeal is heard by Branch ,in other words judge,jury and executioner
So far the fact that 'Wee Davie' is not the decision maker is the only good news to come out of this. The burning question of the day is do they hire Greg Monforton or Pat Ducharme? My money would be on Ducharme as he has represented hockey clients previously. In this situation the Spitfires must take every step possible to save both their reputation and future, everything hangs in the balance. We will suffer for years with the loss of the 1st round draft choices as they can't be regained via trades. The loss of 2nds hurts to a lesser degree but you can get them back in trades.
At this point in time,without the benefit of the details of the accusation, it is difficult to judge what the punishment should be if is determined by the board that they are guilty. However, if the Spits are guilty of doing some wrong that is not in the best interests of the OHL then a monetary penalty would be more appropriate, in my humble opinion.

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08-11-2012, 11:57 AM
  #403
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Thanks cfaub, for the response.

And for those piling on taking joy in this, they may or may not have their team get burnt with future investigations, but if something negative happens to London or Windsor people are going to rip them. It's part of deal when u sit atop the mountain

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08-11-2012, 12:13 PM
  #404
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Best way for them to respond, I agree totally. Buckle up get to work and build
It up Again. If ur pissed about it, succeed in spite of it. I'm sure it would even sweeter
Everyone has to no this is what it's gunna do they. Can't Change the past but THEY WILL change the future...There gunna make the next couple years a spitfires ERA...screw it we don't need our first round picks.you no warren will find a way to get the good playErs..He's the Best Chl GM In the game rate now....and will get our way.

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08-11-2012, 12:24 PM
  #405
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Thanks cfaub, for the response.

And for those piling on taking joy in this, they may or may not have their team get burnt with future investigations, but if something negative happens to London or Windsor people are going to rip them. It's part of deal when u sit atop the mountain
Agreed.

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08-11-2012, 12:32 PM
  #406
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CFaub I understand the blowing the whistle but maintaining a relationship but let's be realistic here. What type of working relationship has Rychel/Windsor shown with the likes of Brampton, Sudbury, Ottawa, London, Plymouth last deal made between those 2 was back in November 07. Having a relationship with a team is all relative based upon your needs and what the other team has. Yes there are teams that Rychel has had a better working relationship with than others but you also have to understand there are probably some teams Rychel will never look to deal with until things change.

Mistake last Plymouth deal was the Whaley one but the last one of note was back in 07.


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08-11-2012, 12:40 PM
  #407
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The conversation here is a lot more sensible than on the NOOF

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08-11-2012, 12:43 PM
  #408
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The conversation here is a lot more sensible than on the NOOF
want me to invite WindsorRose over?

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08-11-2012, 12:51 PM
  #409
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on the other side of the coin...what if such an appeal does nothing more than solidify the OHL's stance against the Spitfires? That could also happen. Sure the "we've got nothing to lose" approach is commendable..but it could also bite you harder in the ass.
Seem the NFL is losing ground on their big suspension, fines, etc against the Saints for Bounty Gate. If their case was rock solid, why are they now offerring to reduce suspensions?

The Spits probably have nothing to lose to appeal the findings.

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08-11-2012, 01:21 PM
  #410
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want me to invite WindsorRose over?
Talk about someone that doesn't help your case at all... kind of like Simon is for you guys.

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08-11-2012, 01:59 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by RayzorIsDull View Post
CFaub I understand the blowing the whistle but maintaining a relationship but let's be realistic here. What type of working relationship has Rychel/Windsor shown with the likes of Brampton, Sudbury, Ottawa, London, Plymouth last deal made between those 2 was back in November 07. Having a relationship with a team is all relative based upon your needs and what the other team has. Yes there are teams that Rychel has had a better working relationship with than others but you also have to understand there are probably some teams Rychel will never look to deal with until things change.

Mistake last Plymouth deal was the Whaley one but the last one of note was back in 07.
Immediate thoughts are working relationships involve GMs dealing with each other but they go far beyond this.

Certainly as a GM Rychel has to be able to deal with other GMs but as an owner he also has to be able to deal with other owners as well.

With Windsor being one of the flagship franchises of the league the last 6 or 7 years it is important to maintain their abiltiy to compete since the top franchises draw attention to the entire league.

The small market teams want an abiltiy to compete against them on the ice but also most owners are seeking a return on their investment and in this day and age what is more important to most business people?

Competing fairly or making money?

Money always wins out and if going too far in the punishment creates a problem for the rest of the league then the punishment will be reduced to the benefit of the entire league.

Maintaining the punishment at a level that brings down another team will only serve to reduce the number of attractive markets to players thus reducing the ability of the league as a whole to attract the top talent.

All of this is dependent on the working relationships of the organizations and the ability to see a common goal.

It goes beyond the ability of GMs to make trades.

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08-11-2012, 02:17 PM
  #412
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I think the sanctions put on the spits were excessive and unneccessary
To Fine them is one thing but,affecting their future is another
Stripping a team of 1st rders is unconsciencable,afterall they are a teams' lifeblood
My feeling is that they are found innocent by their defence not only should get their picks restored,also the fine returned,half the fine should be added in other words the league pays them 200,000 as well for every draft pick punished an additional pick is awarded to Windsor
Meaning Windsor would get 5 picks plus the ones they were to lose
Such an action u think would deter the league from imposing death like sentences until all is heard including the spits side
I dont know what will happen here
Regardless the Spits reputation has been tarnished whether found guilty or innocent,and if its innocent Branch should resign/fired and the League ponies up in cash and additional picks
In my view this is the worst thing the League could have done not just because of Windsor but every team in the league and unneccessary fodder for the NCAA

So you think the punishment is excessive, but would like to see a ridiculously excessive compensation if found innocent? Makes sense. (and my guess is the league is 99.99999999999% sure they're guilty)

As for the "NCAA fodder" comment, ya, because the NCAA is soooo squeaky clean.

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08-11-2012, 02:29 PM
  #413
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Spitfires may be tip of the iceberg
Patrick King from Sportsnet

I didn't see this posted, sorry if it is, but I don't think so

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08-11-2012, 02:39 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by RayzorIsDull View Post
CFaub I understand the blowing the whistle but maintaining a relationship but let's be realistic here. What type of working relationship has Rychel/Windsor shown with the likes of Brampton, Sudbury, Ottawa, London, Plymouth last deal made between those 2 was back in November 07. Having a relationship with a team is all relative based upon your needs and what the other team has. Yes there are teams that Rychel has had a better working relationship with than others but you also have to understand there are probably some teams Rychel will never look to deal with until things change.

Mistake last Plymouth deal was the Whaley one but the last one of note was back in 07.
What mistake was made with this deal? Players went either way in the trade. Nothing of huge impact.

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08-11-2012, 02:53 PM
  #415
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What mistake was made with this deal? Players went either way in the trade. Nothing of huge impact.
I think the mistake he was referring to was that he had forgotten about the trade. No actual mistakes surrounding the trade itself.

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08-11-2012, 03:12 PM
  #416
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I see, making a trade any trade with Plymouth. Tks

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08-11-2012, 05:07 PM
  #417
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Ohl

I think the best the spits can hope for now is a reduced fine and getting some picks back.
They will never let them off now. It would make them look ridiculous.

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08-11-2012, 05:08 PM
  #418
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So, I get this text on Friday morning from a buddy, saying the Spitfires are fined 400K and draft picks for player recruitment violations.

Holy mackinac...this is crazy.

I really don't know where to even begin with all of this. I wonder what the other teams are thinking..."Hahaha" or "****, we could be next?"

Quote:
“The League conducted two separate investigations led by our Director of Security and Enforcement, and in considering all the facts, I was persuaded that the Windsor Spitfires Hockey Club violated the League’s Player Benefit and Recruitment Rules and Policies. While the penalties may appear to be severe, the League and its Member Teams recognize for any such violations of our Recruitment / Benefit Rules and Policies, we must send a strong message to preserve the integrity of our League”, concluded Branch.
a) Who is the Director of Security and Enforcement?

b) He was "persuaded"? Kind of ironic.

c) The league that puts new rules in when it feels like it has integrity?

While I haven't had a chance to soak it all in yet, or read everything (NOOF is next...this should be good), it seems like someone said something and the league went "hmmm, we should look into this."

If the Spitfires appeal and win, I wonder if Branch will ever come back to Windsor, save for any potential Memorial Cup? Hell, even if the appeal and lose, question still stands.

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08-11-2012, 05:27 PM
  #419
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So you think the punishment is excessive, but would like to see a ridiculously excessive compensation if found innocent? Makes sense. (and my guess is the league is 99.99999999999% sure they're guilty)

As for the "NCAA fodder" comment, ya, because the NCAA is soooo squeaky clean.
With more thought I feel if the Spits are found innocent of the allegations the league shall the award the Spits 3 additional picks 2 1sts and a 2nd rder plus 200,000 dollars for the embarassment suffered and a lesson to the league to be 100 per cent sure a case can be made zero room for error the consequences are too damaging
Branch should resign as well if the Spits get this overturned

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08-11-2012, 05:31 PM
  #420
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With more thought I feel if the Spits are found innocent of the allegations the league shall the award the Spits 3 additional picks 2 1sts and a 2nd rder plus 200,000 dollars for the embarassment suffered and a lesson to the league to be 100 per cent sure a case can be made zero room for error the consequences are too damaging
Branch should resign as well if the Spits get this overturned
And that's it and that's the only thing I need, is this. I don't need this or this. Just this ashtray. And this paddle game, the ashtray and the paddle game and that's all I need. And this remote control. The ashtray, the paddle game, and the remote control, and that's all I need. And these matches. The ashtray, and these matches, and the remote control and the paddle ball. And this lamp. The ashtray, this paddle game and the remote control and the lamp and that's all I need. And that's all I need too. I don't need one other thing, not one - I need this. The paddle game, and the chair, and the remote control, and the matches, for sure. And this. And that's all I need. The ashtray, the remote control, the paddle game, this magazine and the chair.

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08-11-2012, 05:32 PM
  #421
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I'm with Legend. If this gets overturned, there should be compensation from the league for running the team's name through the mud.

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08-11-2012, 05:40 PM
  #422
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I'm with Legend. If this gets overturned, there should be compensation from the league for running the team's name through the mud.
I seriously doubt it gets overturned. Reduced is a possibility..but that could be even a stretch. The league wouldn't go public with something like this unless they felt 100% certain the Spits had no chance of winning an appeal.

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08-11-2012, 05:43 PM
  #423
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With more thought I feel if the Spits are found innocent of the allegations the league shall the award the Spits 3 additional picks 2 1sts and a 2nd rder plus 200,000 dollars for the embarassment suffered and a lesson to the league to be 100 per cent sure a case can be made zero room for error the consequences are too damaging
Branch should resign as well if the Spits get this overturned
On top of that the Spits should also go public with what exactly they were accused of. This isn't like a suspension that is black and white. They were found to circumvent the recruitment and prospect inducement rules but there doesn't seem to be anything that's available to the public about this.

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08-11-2012, 05:45 PM
  #424
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So to make it up to the Spits theyll put the other teams at a disadvantage by giving them extra 1st rounders? Teams who werent involved in this.Not a chance. Doesnt seem logical. Wishful thinking me thinks.

Cant see it. IF the OHL jumped the gun and teh Spits did nothing (hard to believe with the spanking they got) theyll get all taken away back and thats all. But I doubt thats the case. To go that far in discipline, make it public, youd have to think there at the very least has to be a minor infraction. But if they did F up that bad, Branch would have to resign, i agree but no bonuses.

Could you imagine how great the Spits would be if Rychel the "genius" was given the adv of extra picks HL11? Theyd win 4 of 5 memorial cups Im sure. Ok sarcasm over.

I try never to say never but....

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08-11-2012, 05:47 PM
  #425
RayzorIsDull
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I seriously doubt it gets overturned. Reduced is a possibility..but that could be even a stretch. The league wouldn't go public with something like this unless they felt 100% certain the Spits had no chance of winning an appeal.
Here's the rub if what Rychel says is correct and the league did not follow due process or procedural fairness in regards to the investigation then the league has opened themselves up to a lawsuit and legal consequences.

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