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Blues Get An All Star?

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Old
01-11-2005, 12:22 PM
  #26
mercury
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No, I am a Flyers fan, but I think Pronger and Demitra would have been enough to put the Flyers over the top. We need ANY championship so badly in Philly. Preferably a Super Bowl or a Stanley Cup.

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01-11-2005, 12:36 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury
No, I am a Flyers fan, but I think Pronger and Demitra would have been enough to put the Flyers over the top. We need ANY championship so badly in Philly. Preferably a Super Bowl or a Stanley Cup.
Ok so what about this...?

Blues get:
Joni Pikitanen
Jeff Carter
Freddy Meyer
3rd round pick in 06

Flyers get:
Chris Pronger
Petr Cajanek

And to all of those of you who say I'm stupid, I'm not. These trades could happen. Some of the trades that you all post are ridiciously awful. Even a 5 year old would say no. So don't bash it. Just contribute.

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Old
01-11-2005, 12:41 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluenotehockey26
Ok so what about this...?

Blues get:
Joni Pikitanen
Jeff Carter
Freddy Meyer
3rd round pick in 06

Flyers get:
Chris Pronger
Petr Cajanek

And to all of those of you who say I'm stupid, I'm not. These trades could happen. Some of the trades that you all post are ridiciously awful. Even a 5 year old would say no. So don't bash it. Just contribute.
I don't think I understand, you don't want us to bash your proposal but you're asking us to contribute. Contributing is analyzing the proposal seeing if it will work, and possibly improving it.

Well Philly's not going to give up Pitkanen and Carter for an impending UFA. No way. Not even one of Pitkanen or Carter for Pronger would do. Pronger's $ tag is way too high to get much value back to St. Louis. Unless of course St. Louis ate a large chunk of his salary.

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01-11-2005, 01:14 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluenotehockey26
Ok so what about this...?

Blues get:
Joni Pikitanen
Jeff Carter
Freddy Meyer
3rd round pick in 06

Flyers get:
Chris Pronger
Petr Cajanek

And to all of those of you who say I'm stupid, I'm not. These trades could happen. Some of the trades that you all post are ridiciously awful. Even a 5 year old would say no. So don't bash it. Just contribute.
With Chris Pronger's salary and hitting the 30 year old mark, I can't see the Flyers trading Joni Pitkanen alone for Pronger, nevermind including Jeff Carter, Freddy Meyer and a draft pick.

Your proposals _suck_.

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Old
01-11-2005, 01:56 PM
  #30
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He seems to be asking how the Blues can acquire young impact player(s) without giving up young impact player(s) in return, and the answer is that you aren't realistically going to see deals like that.

The Blues have one young impact player right now, and that is Barret Jackman. Christian Backman is also a good piece, if a step below. You have to start with Jackman, and keep adding, to make a legitimate offer for a Rick Nash. It still probably won't make sense from Columbus' perspective, but at least it's ballpark... at least it isn't laughable.

The Blues have a lot of talent but much of it is aging and very well paid, and neither characteristic translates into high trade value, certainly not when both factors are present in a player. It's kind of grim. Pleau dug himself a hole with the Tkachuk and Weight trades in terms of the Blues' youth, from which he has yet to extricate the team. It will take time to replenish the farm, and the team has been putting off that move.

Some teams might opt to rebuild in their position, but I suspect the Blues' ownership will want to keep the playoff streak going. I expect to see the team attempt a dip or two in free agency. Heaven help them if there is anything resembling a restrictive cap once NHL play resumes. I could see St. Louis as a home for Palffy if there is cap room. Free agency might be deemed the most palatable option by ownership/management.

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Old
01-11-2005, 02:03 PM
  #31
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For the Blues to get alot for Pronger, it would have to be a sign and trade. If that was the case. Pronger & Drake/Sillinger would be a good package for a playoff contender.

Toronto - Steen, Stajan, Wellwood
Ottawa - Havlet
Philadelphia - Pitkanen, Handzus, Carter, Sharp
New Jersey - Parise, Langenbrunner
San Jose - Cheechoo, Stuart
Dallas - Morrow
Boston - Boynton, Bergeron


(These are not actual trades, just a few players who would be of use to the Blues in a potentinal Pronger trade)


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBleeder


3) Resign Demitra - 4-5 years, around $5 mil per




Demitra is a good player but come on, the last thing they need to do is sign anyone to a long term contract at that kind of salary.
The Blues have almost no offensive without Demitra. Weight can't shoot and if you deal Tkachuk you need somebody who can score. If we dumped Tkachuk and Pronger. Demitra's $5 mil per would be easy to absorb, even if we had to eat part of Tkachuk's salary. Another alternative would be signing Kovalev to a deal similar to the Demitra one.

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Old
01-11-2005, 02:03 PM
  #32
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That mega-deal was not suggested for now. It was supposedly being worked on before the Flyers acquired Zhamnov. I would not give up that much for Pronger and Demitra now. Especially when Pronger could be available as a UFA. However, when the Flyers were in the hunt for the Cup, I would have. We needed a 1st line center, and we could still use a true #1 d-man. Carter's value has skyrocketed since then, as well.

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Old
01-11-2005, 02:29 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluenotehockey26
Ok so what about this...?

Blues get:
Joni Pikitanen
Jeff Carter
Freddy Meyer
3rd round pick in 06

Flyers get:
Chris Pronger
Petr Cajanek

And to all of those of you who say I'm stupid, I'm not. These trades could happen. Some of the trades that you all post are ridiciously awful. Even a 5 year old would say no. So don't bash it. Just contribute.
But the few trades you've posted so far are beyond ridiculously awful. I think you need to do some more research regarding trades. Look at recent trades involving high priced talent and what the return was (particularly Brian Leetch, Alexei Kovalev, Sergei Gonchar) and you'll see its not even close to what you want. I'd say the trade would probably be like this:

To Flyers:
Chris Pronger

To Blues:
R. J. Umberger
Rosario Ruggeri
1st round pick in 2006

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Old
01-11-2005, 03:18 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBleeder
For the Blues to get alot for Pronger, it would have to be a sign and trade. If that was the case. Pronger & Drake/Sillinger would be a good package for a playoff contender.

Toronto - Steen, Stajan, Wellwood
Ottawa - Havlet
Philadelphia - Pitkanen, Handzus, Carter, Sharp
New Jersey - Parise, Langenbrunner
San Jose - Cheechoo, Stuart
Dallas - Morrow
Boston - Boynton, Bergeron


(These are not actual trades, just a few players who would be of use to the Blues in a potentinal Pronger trade)




The Blues have almost no offensive without Demitra. Weight can't shoot and if you deal Tkachuk you need somebody who can score. If we dumped Tkachuk and Pronger. Demitra's $5 mil per would be easy to absorb, even if we had to eat part of Tkachuk's salary. Another alternative would be signing Kovalev to a deal similar to the Demitra one.
I'm sure all those players would be "of use to the Blues." But, no GM is going to trade those players for an impending UFA and aging and expensive vets like Drake.

The "sign and trade" scenario is very unrealistic. If a team is wiling to spend X dollars to pay Pronger, they don't have any reason to let the Blues sign him to begin with. They can just deal directly with Pronger and his agent, and not give St. Louis anything.

St. Louis' choices with Pronger are to sign him (which, I frankly don't see, given that they lost like 40 million next year), or let him walk an UFA and get the compensatory pick.

The parallels between the Blues and my favorite team, the Isles, are almost painful. In a lot of ways, I see the two teams as being in the exact same situation.

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Old
01-11-2005, 03:48 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X8oD
ive said it before and i'll say it again, thise team was SOOO CLOSE 2 years ago. They were 1 player away. They needed a capable Goaltender, And they would have won the cup.

Their GM then went Fantasy Hockey on everybody, traded their grit and depth for High Priced Stars on the downside of their career, and never addressed their 1 need.

They went from a 4 line team with great defense and weak goaltending to a 2 line team with OK defense and Weak Goaltending. How Pleau has walked out of this situation scott-free is beyond me.
The reason they lost 2 years ago....Patrick Roy.

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Old
01-11-2005, 03:54 PM
  #36
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Researched and came up with this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolburn
But the few trades you've posted so far are beyond ridiculously awful. I think you need to do some more research regarding trades. Look at recent trades involving high priced talent and what the return was (particularly Brian Leetch, Alexei Kovalev, Sergei Gonchar) and you'll see its not even close to what you want. I'd say the trade would probably be like this:

To Flyers:
Chris Pronger

To Blues:
R. J. Umberger
Rosario Ruggeri
1st round pick in 2006
First off, never would the Blues do a trade like that. I agree with BlueBleeder when he says they should sign Al MacInnis as a assistant coach, and maybe we should fire Pleau for Burke. If you want a fair trade to happen, lets try a 3 way deal this time.

Devils get:
Chris Pronger-they will lose Scottie N so Pronger would be next big one
3rd or 4th Rounder in 06 from Carolina

Blues get:
Zach Parise- future 1st liner
Cam Janssen- the St. Louis native would be a fan favorite and would love to play back home
Danny Richmond- former WCHA and OHL standout on defense will play with Wideman on the blueline

Hurricanes get:
John Pohl- good AHL player with potential to be a leader on a younger team
1st or 2nd Rounder in 05 from New Jersey

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Old
01-11-2005, 03:55 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolburn
But the few trades you've posted so far are beyond ridiculously awful. I think you need to do some more research regarding trades. Look at recent trades involving high priced talent and what the return was (particularly Brian Leetch, Alexei Kovalev, Sergei Gonchar) and you'll see its not even close to what you want. I'd say the trade would probably be like this:

To Flyers:
Chris Pronger

To Blues:
R. J. Umberger
Rosario Ruggeri
1st round pick in 2006
Brutal, but the Flyer equivalent of bluenotehockey26 propopsal.

How about we make it a bitter fairer?

PHI: Pronger
STL: Seidenberg, Richards.

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Old
01-11-2005, 03:59 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluenotehockey26
First off, never would the Blues do a trade like that. I agree with BlueBleeder when he says they should sign Al MacInnis as a assistant coach, and maybe we should fire Pleau for Burke. If you want a fair trade to happen, lets try a 3 way deal this time.

Devils get:
Chris Pronger-they will lose Scottie N so Pronger would be next big one
3rd or 4th Rounder in 06 from Carolina

Blues get:
Zach Parise- future 1st liner
Cam Janssen- the St. Louis native would be a fan favorite and would love to play back home
Danny Richmond- former WCHA and OHL standout on defense will play with Wideman on the blueline

Hurricanes get:
John Pohl- good AHL player with potential to be a leader on a younger team
1st or 2nd Rounder in 05 from New Jersey
From the POV of a Devils fan? Ummm.... maybe. Tough. Maybe if we DO lose Niedermayer. It depends on whether or not we're going through a "rebuilding" phase (ie. 1996-1999) or still contending on a regular basis.

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Old
01-11-2005, 04:09 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluenotehockey26
First off, never would the Blues do a trade like that. I agree with BlueBleeder when he says they should sign Al MacInnis as a assistant coach, and maybe we should fire Pleau for Burke. If you want a fair trade to happen, lets try a 3 way deal this time.

Devils get:
Chris Pronger-they will lose Scottie N so Pronger would be next big one
3rd or 4th Rounder in 06 from Carolina

Blues get:
Zach Parise- future 1st liner
Cam Janssen- the St. Louis native would be a fan favorite and would love to play back home
Danny Richmond- former WCHA and OHL standout on defense will play with Wideman on the blueline

Hurricanes get:
John Pohl- good AHL player with potential to be a leader on a younger team
1st or 2nd Rounder in 05 from New Jersey
You have a lot of return coming back to the Blues in this situation, especially given the likelihood that the Blues will not longer hold his rights when hockey finally does begin again.

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Old
01-11-2005, 04:32 PM
  #40
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If I'm Lamoriello and I have the go-ahead from ownership to pay Pronger what he is worth, I look to do so in free agency. I certainly don't give up a young player with the kind of upside that Parise boasts for a pending UFA whose future intentions are unclear.

In general terms, a $10 million player heading into unrestricted free agency is not traded solely on the basis of his merits as a hockey player.

Separately, I think it is fair to say that Lamoriello will not be trading Parise for many years.

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01-11-2005, 04:57 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluenotehockey26
First off, never would the Blues do a trade like that. I agree with BlueBleeder when he says they should sign Al MacInnis as a assistant coach, and maybe we should fire Pleau for Burke. If you want a fair trade to happen, lets try a 3 way deal this time.

Devils get:
Chris Pronger-they will lose Scottie N so Pronger would be next big one
3rd or 4th Rounder in 06 from Carolina

Blues get:
Zach Parise- future 1st liner
Cam Janssen- the St. Louis native would be a fan favorite and would love to play back home
Danny Richmond- former WCHA and OHL standout on defense will play with Wideman on the blueline

Hurricanes get:
John Pohl- good AHL player with potential to be a leader on a younger team
1st or 2nd Rounder in 05 from New Jersey
You would be lucky to get a third rounder for Pohl. Stop with the proposals for now, just a bit. Learn from others on how to do proposals.

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01-11-2005, 04:59 PM
  #42
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01-11-2005, 05:02 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bruins19
You would be lucky to get a third rounder for Pohl. Stop with the proposals for now, just a bit. Learn from others on how to do proposals.
Yes please do everyone a favor and stop with the proposals. We're trying to give you some constructive criticism, and you just keep coming up with really bad ones.

New Jersey is not trading Zach Parise for a soon to be UFA. Never gonna happen.

Your proposals are all about bending other teams over. You gotta give to get, and right now St. Louis is very low on valuable trading assets.

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01-11-2005, 05:24 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyByngJeanRatelle
Yes please do everyone a favor and stop with the proposals. We're trying to give you some constructive criticism, and you just keep coming up with really bad ones.

New Jersey is not trading Zach Parise for a soon to be UFA. Never gonna happen.

Your proposals are all about bending other teams over. You gotta give to get, and right now St. Louis is very low on valuable trading assets.
I'm not trying to bend teams, I'm trying to find a way for the Blues to get some good young guns. The last trade I made:
Devils get:
Chris Pronger-they will lose Scottie N so Pronger would be next big one
3rd or 4th Rounder in 06 from Carolina

Blues get:
Zach Parise- future 1st liner
Cam Janssen- the St. Louis native would be a fan favorite and would love to play back home
Danny Richmond- former WCHA and OHL standout on defense will play with Wideman on the blueline

Hurricanes get:
John Pohl- good AHL player with potential to be a leader on a younger team
1st or 2nd Rounder in 05 from New Jersey

That wouldn't be a bad trade, maybe alter it a little bit or add some players in. And I'm thinking of right now, not whos gonna be UFA's. I'm new here and I come to this forum excited about trade proposals, since a lot of you make crappy trade ideas as well. If you think your so much better, make a fair trade that gives the Blues young talent and doesn't give up as much as you want to.

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01-11-2005, 05:33 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluenotehockey26
I'm new here and I come to this forum excited about trade proposals, since a lot of you make crappy trade ideas as well. If you think your so much better, make a fair trade that gives the Blues young talent and doesn't give up as much as you want to.
Look, basically for the Blues to acquire good young talent, it's going to cost them in the pocket book, big time. What I mean by that is your 3 top players, Pronger, Weight and Tkachuk all have low trade value b/c of their contracts. If St. Louis did do a sign and trade (someone mentioned this b/f), then those players would command better returns on the condition that ST. Louis pays all/or portions of those contracts.

I know Toronto or Phildelphia would be all over getting Pronger at a reduced salary.

Ottawa would love to have Tkachuk as that 1st line power forward.

Just start adding some $ figures to your trades, you may have something. I'm still not sure that St. Louis is willing to use $ to acquire young talent. Who knows though.

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01-11-2005, 05:36 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake1588

The Blues have one young impact player right now, and that is Barret Jackman. Christian Backman is also a good piece, if a step below. You have to start with Jackman, and keep adding, to make a legitimate offer for a Rick Nash. It still probably won't make sense from Columbus' perspective, but at least it's ballpark... at least it isn't laughable.
I think your on the right track there.

valuewise a Nash(franchise player) leaving Columbus to St. Louis would be this:

Jackman
Backman
Schwarz
2006 first round pick

for

Rick Nash

Even then Columbus would say no, but valuewise I think its pretty close.

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01-11-2005, 05:40 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluenotehockey26
That wouldn't be a bad trade, maybe alter it a little bit or add some players in. And I'm thinking of right now, not whos gonna be UFA's. I'm new here and I come to this forum excited about trade proposals, since a lot of you make crappy trade ideas as well. If you think your so much better, make a fair trade that gives the Blues young talent and doesn't give up as much as you want to.
Thats a terrible trade idea.

Your not going to get any young talent at this point. Get what you can for these guys with huge contracts and impending UFA status. Midlevel prospects and picks. Go into full rebuild with Jackman and Schwarz as your cornerstones.

Deal with the fact your not going to have a Rick Nash type player in St. Louis anytime soon.

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01-11-2005, 05:58 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluenotehockey26
I'm not trying to bend teams, I'm trying to find a way for the Blues to get some good young guns. The last trade I made:
Devils get:
Chris Pronger-they will lose Scottie N so Pronger would be next big one
3rd or 4th Rounder in 06 from Carolina

Blues get:
Zach Parise- future 1st liner
Cam Janssen- the St. Louis native would be a fan favorite and would love to play back home
Danny Richmond- former WCHA and OHL standout on defense will play with Wideman on the blueline

Hurricanes get:
John Pohl- good AHL player with potential to be a leader on a younger team
1st or 2nd Rounder in 05 from New Jersey

That wouldn't be a bad trade, maybe alter it a little bit or add some players in. And I'm thinking of right now, not whos gonna be UFA's. I'm new here and I come to this forum excited about trade proposals, since a lot of you make crappy trade ideas as well. If you think your so much better, make a fair trade that gives the Blues young talent and doesn't give up as much as you want to.
I don't see how this works at all.

If NJ is interested in Pronger, because they lose Scott N. to free agency, then Pronger is also a free agent (they both hit free agency at the same time). They could just use the money they would have used to try and re-sign Niedermayer to offer Pronger a free agent contract. Why in the world would they trade a valuable asset to get it done?

It's like saying that St. Louis is interested in Aucoin next season as he hits UFA status therefore instead of waiting for free agency they work out a sign and trade with the Isles to land him - does this make any sense? seriously how often do sign and trade deals happen in the NHL? when was the last time you could remember one going down?

This is more an NBA thing. Mostly due to salary caps, and getting players through caps onto other teams. In the NHL this doesn't happen.

The Blues are in a tough spot with Pronger, although I really don't think it's as bad as it seems. Pronger, my guess is, is done as a Blue. If the season is locked out, he's a UFA, and will likely sign with another team. This isn't all that bad a thing though for the Blues IMO.

First they get a 2nd round comp. pick for losing him. Then they get that $10mill salary spot they can use to replace Pronger (and MacInnis) on their blueline. And with the current NHL situation, they should lots of options as the free agent market will be loaded with talent.

If worst case situation is that they lose Pronger to free agency, but can use that $10mill to add 2 or more players - guys like Aucoin, Hamrilk, Gonchar, Witt, Leetch, etc are all UFAs as well - then overall I think it makes the Blues a better team. They may lose the best player in Pronger, but they add much needed depth (especially seeing as how MacInnis is likely done)... they could probably also add a top 6 forward to replace Demitra as well, and still be in a better payroll structure overall.

But at this point, expecting the Blues to actually land talent in exchange for a guy asking for $10mill a year, who's a washed out hockey season away from free agency, just doesn't add up.

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Old
01-11-2005, 06:47 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
I don't see how this works at all.

If NJ is interested in Pronger, because they lose Scott N. to free agency, then Pronger is also a free agent (they both hit free agency at the same time). They could just use the money they would have used to try and re-sign Niedermayer to offer Pronger a free agent contract. Why in the world would they trade a valuable asset to get it done?

It's like saying that St. Louis is interested in Aucoin next season as he hits UFA status therefore instead of waiting for free agency they work out a sign and trade with the Isles to land him - does this make any sense? seriously how often do sign and trade deals happen in the NHL? when was the last time you could remember one going down?

This is more an NBA thing. Mostly due to salary caps, and getting players through caps onto other teams. In the NHL this doesn't happen.

The Blues are in a tough spot with Pronger, although I really don't think it's as bad as it seems. Pronger, my guess is, is done as a Blue. If the season is locked out, he's a UFA, and will likely sign with another team. This isn't all that bad a thing though for the Blues IMO.

First they get a 2nd round comp. pick for losing him. Then they get that $10mill salary spot they can use to replace Pronger (and MacInnis) on their blueline. And with the current NHL situation, they should lots of options as the free agent market will be loaded with talent.

If worst case situation is that they lose Pronger to free agency, but can use that $10mill to add 2 or more players - guys like Aucoin, Hamrilk, Gonchar, Witt, Leetch, etc are all UFAs as well - then overall I think it makes the Blues a better team. They may lose the best player in Pronger, but they add much needed depth (especially seeing as how MacInnis is likely done)... they could probably also add a top 6 forward to replace Demitra as well, and still be in a better payroll structure overall.

But at this point, expecting the Blues to actually land talent in exchange for a guy asking for $10mill a year, who's a washed out hockey season away from free agency, just doesn't add up.
Thanks for actually explaining it other than just laughing. I see your point. Try to help me think of a deal

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01-11-2005, 06:53 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomACE
Brutal, but the Flyer equivalent of bluenotehockey26 propopsal.

How about we make it a bitter fairer?

PHI: Pronger
STL: Seidenberg, Richards.
But you have to realize that Pronger is about to be an UFA. The Flyers won't give up either Seidenberg or Richards for Pronger if they can wait a little longer and get him without giving anything up. Especially considering the salary that Pronger makes, you won't have any real takers.

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