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Old
07-22-2012, 11:24 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
The Kings actually did make room for Doughty when they dealt Lubomir Visnovsky to Edmonton.

I also disagree that Quick was the best alternative at the time because everyone was clamoring for Jonathan Bernier, the next successor in net, to come riding on a white horse to save the Kings. After Quick established himself as the starter, the Kings got rid of LaBarbera and brought up Erik Ersberg to be Quick's backup. Quick was not the obvious choice then as many were thinking it would be Bernier (remember Bernier was disgruntled and unhappy that he wasn't called up).

I wouldn't have traded Scuderi at the start of last year to make room for Muzzin nor would I do it now. We don't know if he's another Joe Rullier or Aaron Rome. I'm just not as sold on Muzzin as you are. What Scuderi does is greatly unappreciated here and I can't see Muzzin replacing his calming presence and leadership. Scuderi is the modern day Mattias Norstrom that the Kings need to play with Doughty. I don't see Muzzin being that player.
Fair points, agree to disagree.

As to making room for DD the timing of moving Vis to make room for him is a little off but ok. On JQ maybe some thought JB was ready but some of us saw JQ as the guy to hold the spot until JB was ready.

On Muzz I will stand by my record on these sort of things. While I was one of the happiest people around here the day we signed Scuds and remain so to this day, my point is that it isn't so easy to simply make room for our NHL ready kids as it might seem.

The Kings aren't likely to move Scuderi or Greene/Wille either to make room for Muzzin or Hickey but they are both very ready to play in the NHL.

Muzzin is significantly better than Rome or Joey Knuckles so if they are even remotely part of how you see him then you will be pleasantly surprised.

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07-23-2012, 01:33 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
The Kings actually did make room for Doughty when they dealt Lubomir Visnovsky to Edmonton.

I also disagree that Quick was the best alternative at the time because everyone was clamoring for Jonathan Bernier, the next successor in net, to come riding on a white horse to save the Kings. After Quick established himself as the starter, the Kings got rid of LaBarbera and brought up Erik Ersberg to be Quick's backup. Quick was not the obvious choice then as many were thinking it would be Bernier (remember Bernier was disgruntled and unhappy that he wasn't called up).

I wouldn't have traded Scuderi at the start of last year to make room for Muzzin nor would I do it now. We don't know if he's another Joe Rullier or Aaron Rome. I'm just not as sold on Muzzin as you are. What Scuderi does is greatly unappreciated here and I can't see Muzzin replacing his calming presence and leadership. Scuderi is the modern day Mattias Norstrom that the Kings need to play with Doughty. I don't see Muzzin being that player.
That isn't how the Quick/LaBarbara/Ersberg situation panned out. LaBarbara tore up the AHL and we all hoped he would do a better job than Dan Cloutier. Then we had a LaBarbara/J.S. Aubin duo, which wasn't too great either. We traded Aubin and brought in Ersberg who played well until he got hurt at the end of the season. At that point, Quick, Bernier, and even Danny Taylor were playing. That was all in the 07-08 season.

The following season started out with LaBarbara and Ersberg in net. Ersberg went down around December and instead of giving LaBarbara the starts, it went to the freshly-called-up Jonathan Quick, much to the dismay of those clamoring for Bernier (who was backing up Quick on the Monarchs at the time). Once Ersberg came back, Quick was too good to send back down. The resulted in one of the greatest trades in LA Kings history, LaBarbara to Vancouver for a seventh round draft pick.

The following season, it was Quick and Ersberg and Quick just ran away with it. We all know what he's done in the past three seasons.

What's funny is that the 06-07 season was the biggest **** show of them all regarding the Kings goaltending situation. But that was the end of the dark years and I don't like to talk about that.

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07-23-2012, 02:20 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by markisonfire View Post
That isn't how the Quick/LaBarbara/Ersberg situation panned out. LaBarbara tore up the AHL and we all hoped he would do a better job than Dan Cloutier. Then we had a LaBarbara/J.S. Aubin duo, which wasn't too great either. We traded Aubin and brought in Ersberg who played well until he got hurt at the end of the season. At that point, Quick, Bernier, and even Danny Taylor were playing. That was all in the 07-08 season.

The following season started out with LaBarbara and Ersberg in net. Ersberg went down around December and instead of giving LaBarbara the starts, it went to the freshly-called-up Jonathan Quick, much to the dismay of those clamoring for Bernier (who was backing up Quick on the Monarchs at the time). Once Ersberg came back, Quick was too good to send back down. The resulted in one of the greatest trades in LA Kings history, LaBarbara to Vancouver for a seventh round draft pick.

The following season, it was Quick and Ersberg and Quick just ran away with it. We all know what he's done in the past three seasons.

What's funny is that the 06-07 season was the biggest **** show of them all regarding the Kings goaltending situation. But that was the end of the dark years and I don't like to talk about that.
In a nutshell, it does go to show that Quick forced the Kings to make moves that paved the way for him to take over as the starting goalie. They didn't play favorites going off of draft position and went with seniority when they brought up Quick instead of Bernier.

The Kings knew that LaBarbera was not going to be "the man" in net. I recall his last few starts with the Kings and was in attendance for his final home game in a Kings uniform, which was dreadful.


As an added bonus, here's the last game we'd see of LaBarbera with in a Kings sweater:


Quick's play permitted the Kings to rid themselves of LaBarbera (and in that process ended the torture us Kings fans had to endure). I'm not sure what I'm more grateful towards Quick for, the end of the Jason LaBarbera era, or the Stanley Cup.

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07-23-2012, 09:18 AM
  #79
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I don't see why we would re-sign Scuderi if Muzzin proves he is ready.

Sink or swim at some point. The changing of the guard has to come at some point. Especially when your three shutdown defensive players are turning 33, 35, and 30 over the course of next season.

Here's how I feel it plays out.

Scuderi out after 2013-2014 contract, Muzzin replaces.
Mitchell out after the 2014-2015 contract, Forbort/Gravel steps in.
Matt Greene signs a 1 year in 2014-2015, after 2015-2016, Forbort/Gravel steps in.

Drewiske, or Campbell may play stop gap for a year while it happens. Also this is in a perfect world scenario where all 3 of those prospects develop into NHL players. Things can always change.

I really like how DL has structured some of these deals. The timings of them coming up are so smart.

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07-23-2012, 11:19 AM
  #80
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I agree about Muzzin in that if the Kings brass regard him highly, next year is his year to break him in. Someone is going to give Scuderi a lot of money and the only way I see him coming back is if the Kings somehow go back to back and Scuds doesn't appear to be losing anything and will take a Mitchell-like contract. Eventually, the young guys will need to be integrated in because they're simply going to be cheaper. Which is why it's a must for the likes of King, Nolan and Clifford to really step up and continue developing.

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07-23-2012, 12:00 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
In a nutshell, it does go to show that Quick forced the Kings to make moves that paved the way for him to take over as the starting goalie. They didn't play favorites going off of draft position and went with seniority when they brought up Quick instead of Bernier.

The Kings knew that LaBarbera was not going to be "the man" in net. I recall his last few starts with the Kings and was in attendance for his final home game in a Kings uniform, which was dreadful.

Quick's play permitted the Kings to rid themselves of LaBarbera (and in that process ended the torture us Kings fans had to endure). I'm not sure what I'm more grateful towards Quick for, the end of the Jason LaBarbera era, or the Stanley Cup.
But that doesn't speak to your original point in saying that if our kids were really ready that the team would make room for them and bring them up.

LaBarbara was clearly not the answer in net so we had a need to make room for a better goalie, any better goalie. We didn't specifically make room for Quick, we made room for our best option at his position and he took the opportunity and ran with it.

My point is that you can't always just make room for kids and that really good teams typically have a few NHL ready prospects that they are trying to hang onto until they can find the right time/situation to bring them up in.

Wow, I even confused myself on that one.

Kozun is ready as a forward along with AndyA and a few others but we can't just shuffle the deck to make room for them. That sort of thing.

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07-23-2012, 12:17 PM
  #82
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That's essentially what I'm saying: the Kings will make room if they find a better option. They're not going to clear up roster space just to fit their prospects on the roster unless they prove to be better than what they already have.

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07-23-2012, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
That's essentially what I'm saying: the Kings will make room if they find a better option. They're not going to clear up roster space just to fit their prospects on the roster unless they prove to be better than what they already have.
Alright, I must have misunderstood your point before.

I thought you were saying that if we had any NHL ready prospects that we would have them on the team already. We have NHL ready prospects but is Muzzin a better option than Scuderi at this point? Nope so he will have to wait his turn until a spot opens up where he becomes our best option.

He (along with our other NHL ready prospects) would make the roster of several other NHL teams but they have the need and time to bring in a rookie and get him up to speed, we are in the hunt for it all and have our roster set so no reason to do anything just yet.

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07-23-2012, 12:29 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
That's essentially what I'm saying: the Kings will make room if they find a better option. They're not going to clear up roster space just to fit their prospects on the roster unless they prove to be better than what they already have.
How can they prove that without getting a roster spot?

Lombardi did not know that King and Nolan were "better" than Moreau and Hunter until King and Nolan were given their roster spot.

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07-23-2012, 12:51 PM
  #85
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How can they prove that without getting a roster spot?

Lombardi did not know that King and Nolan were "better" than Moreau and Hunter until King and Nolan were given their roster spot.
They had the foresight to bring them up knowing that they could do a better job than Moreau and Hunter. Jack Ferreira said that he was pushing to have them called up sooner. It wasn't until Sutter himself got a look at the kids in Manchester during the all-star break that the Kings made the decision to bring them up.

Look at how the Voynov situation played out with him going up and down between LA and Manchester until the Kings made room for him by trading Johnson for Carter. They knew he was ready and made the move.

The Kings know when these kids are ready. Hickey stuck around until the last round of roster cuts. I figure both him and Muzzin will get long looks at camp and in preseason games if a lockout is avoided.

Look at the Kings roster now and tell me how many holes are there to be filled. There are none. If a prospect is ready to graduate to the NHL, the Kings will eventually make room for him, and if there isn't any room, they have to wait their turn or be turned into another asset, which appears to be the case with Bernier. He knows he won't get an opportunity to be a starter in LA, hence his desire to be traded.

Honest question, would any of you be comfortable with a rookie dman playing on the top pair with Doughty? Or having a rookie take Scuderi's spot on the PK? I sure as hell wouldn't be comfortable with that. If anyone is going to eventually replace Scuderi or Mitchell, it's likely to be Forbort. I think he'll be ready to step in within 2-3 years, and I'd like to see this 6-unit group stay intact until Forbort's ready for the big leagues.

Also note that it's a hell of a lot tougher for a defenseman to crack the roster. You can't hide their minutes like you can with forwards. If any of Muzzin or Hickey or Campbell crack the Kings, they'll be competing with Drewiske for the #7 spot.

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07-23-2012, 01:17 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
They had the foresight to bring them up knowing that they could do a better job than Moreau and Hunter. Jack Ferreira said that he was pushing to have them called up sooner. It wasn't until Sutter himself got a look at the kids in Manchester during the all-star break that the Kings made the decision to bring them up.

Look at how the Voynov situation played out with him going up and down between LA and Manchester until the Kings made room for him by trading Johnson for Carter. They knew he was ready and made the move.

The Kings know when these kids are ready. Hickey stuck around until the last round of roster cuts. I figure both him and Muzzin will get long looks at camp and in preseason games if a lockout is avoided.

Look at the Kings roster now and tell me how many holes are there to be filled. There are none. If a prospect is ready to graduate to the NHL, the Kings will eventually make room for him, and if there isn't any room, they have to wait their turn or be turned into another asset, which appears to be the case with Bernier. He knows he won't get an opportunity to be a starter in LA, hence his desire to be traded.

Honest question, would any of you be comfortable with a rookie dman playing on the top pair with Doughty? Or having a rookie take Scuderi's spot on the PK? I sure as hell wouldn't be comfortable with that. If anyone is going to eventually replace Scuderi or Mitchell, it's likely to be Forbort. I think he'll be ready to step in within 2-3 years, and I'd like to see this 6-unit group stay intact until Forbort's ready for the big leagues.

Also note that it's a hell of a lot tougher for a defenseman to crack the roster. You can't hide their minutes like you can with forwards. If any of Muzzin or Hickey or Campbell crack the Kings, they'll be competing with Drewiske for the #7 spot.
The days of Drew Doughty needing a baby-sitter like Scuderi and Mitchell should be behind him. He's entering his 5th season in the NHL. He's got a gold medal, a Stanley Cup and the biggest salary on the team. Drew Doughty is able to shut down his side of the ice just fine. So, pairing a rookie with him isn't the worst idea in the world but I fully believe Alec Martinez should be his partner going into next season and beyond. That's a pairing that can compete now and continue to develop into something better in the future.

While Alec Martinez isn't as sound defensively as Scuderi, Martinez is a better puck-mover, a better skater and much more physical.

I'd like to see the following remaining D-pairings:

Mitchell/Voynov
Hickey/Greene
Drewiske

First call-up would be Muzzin.

With Doughty, Martinez, Voynov and Hickey on the blueline, we'd actually have four d-men to use on the PP.

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07-23-2012, 01:22 PM
  #87
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Players like Scuderi don't grow on trees. The guy has been a major part of two cup winning teams now, is one of the better stay at home Dmen in the league, and has played better with Doughty than anyone else.

I like Muzzin a lot, but if you can resign Scuderi on reasonable terms you do it.

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07-23-2012, 01:28 PM
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That leaves the Kings with just two dedicated defensive dmen, a risk I would not like to see the Kings take. Sure, Doughty and Martinez are more than capable of defending their own zone, but I like seeing three guys whose first priority is to defend his end and to protect his net, paired with three guys who can get the puck out of the zone with a crisp pass or a rush.

Scuderi logged over 20 minutes of ice time during the regular season and playoffs, third most among Kings defensemen right after Doughty and Mitchell. Both Scuderi and Mitchell were also top two in shots blocked. That tells you something when your two oldest players on the roster are logging those kind of minutes and leading the team in blocked shots.

I have confidence in Martinez as well and I could see him moving up as a middle pairing defenseman, but the leadership and calmness to the game brought upon by both Scuderi and Mitchell is largely unappreciated by many posters on these forums.

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07-23-2012, 02:33 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
They had the foresight to bring them up knowing that they could do a better job than Moreau and Hunter. Jack Ferreira said that he was pushing to have them called up sooner. It wasn't until Sutter himself got a look at the kids in Manchester during the all-star break that the Kings made the decision to bring them up.

Look at how the Voynov situation played out with him going up and down between LA and Manchester until the Kings made room for him by trading Johnson for Carter. They knew he was ready and made the move.

The Kings know when these kids are ready. Hickey stuck around until the last round of roster cuts. I figure both him and Muzzin will get long looks at camp and in preseason games if a lockout is avoided.

Look at the Kings roster now and tell me how many holes are there to be filled. There are none. If a prospect is ready to graduate to the NHL, the Kings will eventually make room for him, and if there isn't any room, they have to wait their turn or be turned into another asset, which appears to be the case with Bernier. He knows he won't get an opportunity to be a starter in LA, hence his desire to be traded.

Honest question, would any of you be comfortable with a rookie dman playing on the top pair with Doughty? Or having a rookie take Scuderi's spot on the PK? I sure as hell wouldn't be comfortable with that. If anyone is going to eventually replace Scuderi or Mitchell, it's likely to be Forbort. I think he'll be ready to step in within 2-3 years, and I'd like to see this 6-unit group stay intact until Forbort's ready for the big leagues.

Also note that it's a hell of a lot tougher for a defenseman to crack the roster. You can't hide their minutes like you can with forwards. If any of Muzzin or Hickey or Campbell crack the Kings, they'll be competing with Drewiske for the #7 spot.
This is where you are very very wrong but time will have to once again prove me right where our prospects are concerned.

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07-23-2012, 02:33 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post

Honest question, would any of you be comfortable with a rookie dman playing on the top pair with Doughty? Or having a rookie take Scuderi's spot on the PK? I sure as hell wouldn't be comfortable with that. If anyone is going to eventually replace Scuderi or Mitchell, it's likely to be Forbort. I think he'll be ready to step in within 2-3 years, and I'd like to see this 6-unit group stay intact until Forbort's ready for the big leagues.
But it's not a fair one. You advocate not letting a rookie take over but want Forbort to take over in 2-3 years...when he'd likely be in his rookie year.

I'm going to trust DL and the gang on this topic. I can guarantee I wasn't to hot to the idea of a rookie taking over for Jack Johnson at the start of last year, but at the trade deadline that's essentially what we did by moving Johnson to make room for Voynov (and to get that Carter guy). The year before we pushed DD 44 (who people on here say is a legit 4-6 D-man) in favor of giving Alec Martinez a roster spot as a rookie, and hardly anyone on here was even giving A-Mart a chance at an NHL career at that point.

My point is several of these guys in Manchester are not just NHL ready but regular shift NHL ready, much more than we think. These guys aren't coming off a rookie year in the AHL, they have 2-4 seasons in the minors. If DL and company think these guys can replace Scuds, I'm fine with that thinking. Drinking the DL kool-aid has been far more beneficial than harmful anyways, and we have a nice shiny trophy to prove it.

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07-23-2012, 02:38 PM
  #91
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I was in A Marts corner before he stepped in and have remained there along with several others.

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07-23-2012, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
This is where you are very very wrong but time will have to once again prove me right where our prospects are concerned.
Who are any of them going to offseat this season? Unless you are talking about 2013-14, it's a possibility one of them cracks the top six, but not this upcoming season.

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07-23-2012, 03:05 PM
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I was in A Marts corner before he stepped in and have remained there along with several others.
And I was thinking of you when a posted "hardly anyone". You always are a cut above the rest TG!

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07-23-2012, 03:13 PM
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I was in A Marts corner before he stepped in and have remained there along with several others.
Remember who Martinez beat out to win a regular spot on the roster? A position on the blueline opened up after the Kings dealt Kyle Quincey to Colorado. Martinez was in competition against Thomas Hickey, Jake Muzzin, Davis Drewiske and Peter Harrold to secure a spot on the blueline.

Muzzin actually won out the battle in camp that year and started the season on the roster and appeared in 11 games with the Kings through mid-November before he was sent down. Drewiske was also struggling to hold down a spot in the regular rotation, and by late November, Martinez had secured himself a permanent roster spot. His play dictated that decision and he outplayed Hickey and Muzzin to earn that spot.

Which goes back to what I was saying... these kids aren't going to be given spots on the blueline any time soon and I don't see how they'll be on the opening night roster unless one of them offseats Drewiske as the 7th defenseman on the roster.

Manchester needs bodies to fill on their blueline and that's what I expect them to do. Had they been ready for primetime, they would have signed longer than one-year contracts and they would have been one-way deals. But they know what's up and they have to work their tails off and perhaps audition for an opening that may become available next year.

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07-23-2012, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Remember who Martinez beat out to win a regular spot on the roster? A position on the blueline opened up after the Kings dealt Kyle Quincey to Colorado. Martinez was in competition against Thomas Hickey, Jake Muzzin, Davis Drewiske and Peter Harrold to secure a spot on the blueline.

Muzzin actually won out the battle in camp that year and started the season on the roster and appeared in 11 games with the Kings through mid-November before he was sent down. Drewiske was also struggling to hold down a spot in the regular rotation, and by late November, Martinez had secured himself a permanent roster spot. His play dictated that decision and he outplayed Hickey and Muzzin to earn that spot.

Which goes back to what I was saying... these kids aren't going to be given spots on the blueline any time soon and I don't see how they'll be on the opening night roster unless one of them offseats Drewiske as the 7th defenseman on the roster.

Manchester needs bodies to fill on their blueline and that's what I expect them to do. Had they been ready for primetime, they would have signed longer than one-year contracts and they would have been one-way deals. But they know what's up and they have to work their tails off and perhaps audition for an opening that may become available next year.
I'd be shocked if Hickey is in manchester next year unless he bombs in camp. He's waiver eligible and I doubt he won't get claimed by someone. Muzzin maybe is a bit more of a secret, but Hickey would be claimed due to his draft status alone I expect.

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07-23-2012, 03:34 PM
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I'd be shocked if Hickey is in manchester next year unless he bombs in camp. He's waiver eligible and I doubt he won't get claimed by someone. Muzzin maybe is a bit more of a secret, but Hickey would be claimed due to his draft status alone I expect.
Hickey, Muzzin and Drewiske all would get claimed imo, simply due to our depth and reputation.

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07-23-2012, 03:40 PM
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So there's essentially a 0% chance Hickey starts in Manchester next year, right? He would get claimed off of waivers if he doesn't make the team.

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07-23-2012, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
Hickey, Muzzin and Drewiske all would get claimed imo, simply due to our depth and reputation.
Honestly, I'm not solid on Drewiske getting claimed. He's played so little the past few years that he may slip through. If a team is in trouble during camp, like NYR was last year with injuries to guys like Staal, then maybe he gets claimed. Same goes with Muzzin.

Top five picks though tend to get several looks from different organizationsl even if they are a bust (look at Jason Bonsignore, Todd Warriner, Daigle, Richard Jackman, etc.) and I'm sure some team would like to give him a chance, not to mention it's pretty much guaranteed someone has talked to LA about trading for him. Apparently Boston was high on him at that draft, so maybe they'd put in a claim (unless they want to put Dougie Hamilton right into the show).

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07-23-2012, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by GoKingsGoo View Post
So there's essentially a 0% chance Hickey starts in Manchester next year, right? He would get claimed off of waivers if he doesn't make the team.
I think the only way he would get to Manchester is A) on a conditioning stint due to an injury, or B) if he is downright brutal in camp and is an early cut. That might pursuade teams to just ignore him. Outside of those, I doubt it highly Hickey is in manchester.

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07-23-2012, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Honestly, I'm not solid on Drewiske getting claimed. He's played so little the past few years that he may slip through.
His lack of ice time is irrelevant. The fact that the Kings are waiving a dman will get the attention of their GMs.

Also keep in mind that 44DD is a pretty good sized player at 6'2 220. If 44DD is smart, he would add more muscle in the off season.

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