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Sens/Hawks Trade...

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Old
01-11-2005, 01:03 PM
  #1
HuskyFlames
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Sens/Hawks Trade...

Well I was looking through a post in the Blackhawks area and i noticed a couple guys were interested in Havlat.

To Blackhakws:
Havlat

To Senators:
Mark Bell
+ something else (maybe Arnason or a good prospect)

The Blackhawks get a key established, budding player to build around and an upgrade over Bell. The Seantors get the HUGE LW they want that has shown he can be a 20+ goal scorer and getting better each year. I am not sure what the addon would be but the Hawks do have a ton of prospects and they could probably we willing to let go of one of them (such as one of their defenseman) to get the deal done.

Thoughts???

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01-11-2005, 01:55 PM
  #2
briman
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I don't think that Bell brings the other intangibles to the table that the Sens might need to push them over the top. ie. extra leadership, grit. I think tha they'll just move Havlat to the LW and keep their 30+ goal scorer And let the Hawks keep their players. However, I hear Binghamton could use another Arnason.

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01-11-2005, 01:59 PM
  #3
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Bell wore an A last year and has plenty of grit. He is considered a veteran on the Hawks with all the young players. Its possible he could be captain whenever play resumes, he has tons of leadership.

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01-11-2005, 02:14 PM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
Well I was looking through a post in the Blackhawks area and i noticed a couple guys were interested in Havlat.

To Blackhakws:
Havlat

To Senators:
Mark Bell
+ something else (maybe Arnason or a good prospect)

The Blackhawks get a key established, budding player to build around and an upgrade over Bell. The Seantors get the HUGE LW they want that has shown he can be a 20+ goal scorer and getting better each year. I am not sure what the addon would be but the Hawks do have a ton of prospects and they could probably we willing to let go of one of them (such as one of their defenseman) to get the deal done.

Thoughts???
Bell and Arnason for Havlat, I might even make that deal, but I'm not 100% sure.

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Old
01-11-2005, 02:26 PM
  #5
Winston Wolf
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Bell and Chicago's choice of one of their "big 3," Babchuk, Barker, or Seabrook for Havlat. I definitely wouldn't take anything less if I were Ottawa.

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01-11-2005, 02:44 PM
  #6
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I love Havlat to death, and think he is going to be a 100 point scorer in the near future. But, I think Bell is going to be an outstanding, physical forward. I think Bell and a little bit more for Havlat would be a fair deal.

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01-11-2005, 04:17 PM
  #7
salty justice
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Bell and a 2nd in 06 would be as high as I go for Havlat. Id also trade Seabrook with Bell.

It would be very hard to give up another current player, we are extremely lacking in NHL talent as is. And Bell is a fan favorite with tons of upside and is captain material.

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Old
01-11-2005, 04:53 PM
  #8
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I think of Havlat as a legitimate 70-80 point player, but you win with players like Bell. That one is really tough.

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01-11-2005, 05:22 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBob
Bell and a 2nd in 06 would be as high as I go for Havlat. Id also trade Seabrook with Bell.
Can't argue with that.

As an aside, I noticed Bell's high PiM totals but have never seen him fight. I checked hockeyfights to see... and I've got to say this:

Bell, Dude. Just stop fighting! Unless, you're hurting Jarome Iginla's hand with your face, you're probably not doing the team any good.

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01-11-2005, 05:45 PM
  #10
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I'll look at it from Ottawa's point of view:

Bell and Seabrooke at the least but I'd hold out for Bell and Barker.

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Old
01-11-2005, 05:51 PM
  #11
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This is actually a pretty good proposal. I like it.

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Old
01-11-2005, 06:23 PM
  #12
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it is a good proposal, but I doubt too many Sens fans will take it seriously.

Sens fans seem to all know exactly what the team needs - a top 6 legit pf left winger... names like Smyth and Morrow have been thrown out as well, and now Bell... all guys that would help the team.

But no one wants to move a piece it takes to get that kind of asset - namely Havlat - who makes the most sense to move. Alfredsson is the captain, signed long term and isnt' going anywhere... Hossa is the premier player there and shouldn't be moved... Havlat is hugely talented, young and has a scoring upside still to realize, which brings him good trade value, but even though he's playing the right wing behind a couple guys even harder to move, Sens fans don't want to part with Havlat.

Instead we see offers of Todd White and others that no one really wants... these assets aren't going to get the Sens what they really need.

If I was a Sens fan, I'd probably be reluctant to deal a talent like him too, but seeing as how the rest of the team is stacked and ready for that run, it makes sense to move him to shore up other parts of the team.

Would perfer going after Smyth or Morrow instead, but if I was dealing with Chicago, getting Bell would also be worth it... maybe put together a bigger trade offer and try and land both Bell and Daze (while not a real PF type player, could still help the Sens left side a lot and gives you more insurance as well)....

maybe a Havlat + White (the guy that is obviously available) for Bell and Daze? Hawk fans might consider that too much to give up, but they get the best player in the deal, and Daze has spent more time on IR than he has playing for the Hawks for the past couple years.

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01-11-2005, 06:53 PM
  #13
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I think its because we had two potential problems, this "gritty top line PF", which many of us (like myself) don't think we actually need, and goaltending. We got screwed over last year by our goalie going **** up in game 7. Now, the next line is that we didn't have enough traffic in front, but that's BS, as I actually think we had TOO much traffic in front. We had too many guys standing in front of the net, which made it impossible to get shots through. Because they were "toughing it out in front", it also let Belfour see around them, and/or cover the areas of the net not covered by the 8 legs in front of the net. The only 2 screened goals we scored were players passing the front of the net.

As a result, I won't "overpay" for this type of player. And unfortunately, everyone wants Havlat for their player, and to be perfectly honest, none of them are worth Havlat.

We tried to fix the goalie, lets see what happens. If it doesn't work out at all this year (or next if their is no this year), then well talk again. Or if someone is willing to give up a reasonable amount for Havlat, which, to be honest, hasn't happened in ANY of these trade proposals.

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01-11-2005, 07:08 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Egil
I think its because we had two potential problems, this "gritty top line PF", which many of us (like myself) don't think we actually need, and goaltending. We got screwed over last year by our goalie going **** up in game 7. Now, the next line is that we didn't have enough traffic in front, but that's BS, as I actually think we had TOO much traffic in front. We had too many guys standing in front of the net, which made it impossible to get shots through. Because they were "toughing it out in front", it also let Belfour see around them, and/or cover the areas of the net not covered by the 8 legs in front of the net. The only 2 screened goals we scored were players passing the front of the net.

As a result, I won't "overpay" for this type of player. And unfortunately, everyone wants Havlat for their player, and to be perfectly honest, none of them are worth Havlat.

We tried to fix the goalie, lets see what happens. If it doesn't work out at all this year (or next if their is no this year), then well talk again. Or if someone is willing to give up a reasonable amount for Havlat, which, to be honest, hasn't happened in ANY of these trade proposals.
I think that's totally subjective though.

A Smyth for Havlat deal I think is totally fair straight up and has been beaten to death here. Havlat is definitely the more promising player, and younger, with a higher offensive upside, but Smyth brings intangibles - both in toughness and leadership - while bringing still a high skill level, that IMO it's a fair swap.

Morrow for Havlat has also been discussed, and I don't think that's totally off either - maybe Dallas adding a bit, but as reluctant as Sens fans are about giving up Havlat's potential, so are Star fans on giving up Morrow's potential.

Even this deal here isn't that bad... Bell is not the player that Havlat is, but add in the right ingredients with Bell and it's a worthwhile trade. I'd do it if Daze was to be included... or one of the top 3 dmen prospects from the Hawks which IMO makes the trade fair, although not really what the Sens could need, given their prospects on defense already.

Erik Cole has also been mentioned, and with the right players added on the Canes side this could also be a pretty decent deal for the Sens.

The point is that it's not so much that the offers aren't fair, it's that IMO you're looking for too much for Havlat to begin with. No doubt it's hard to give up that kind of quality, but he is the most tradeable asset in Ottawa, where you can move him to improve the left side and not hurt the team overall.

Frankly I think that Sens fans have been spoiled a bit by the excellent trades the team has made in the past, including the Yashin deal, that they simply aren't interested in anything that is "fair" but rather would deal Havlat only if there is a clear cut win on their side.

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01-11-2005, 07:11 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Egil
I think its because we had two potential problems, this "gritty top line PF", which many of us (like myself) don't think we actually need, and goaltending. We got screwed over last year by our goalie going **** up in game 7. Now, the next line is that we didn't have enough traffic in front, but that's BS, as I actually think we had TOO much traffic in front. We had too many guys standing in front of the net, which made it impossible to get shots through. Because they were "toughing it out in front", it also let Belfour see around them, and/or cover the areas of the net not covered by the 8 legs in front of the net. The only 2 screened goals we scored were players passing the front of the net.

As a result, I won't "overpay" for this type of player. And unfortunately, everyone wants Havlat for their player, and to be perfectly honest, none of them are worth Havlat.

We tried to fix the goalie, lets see what happens. If it doesn't work out at all this year (or next if their is no this year), then well talk again. Or if someone is willing to give up a reasonable amount for Havlat, which, to be honest, hasn't happened in ANY of these trade proposals.
IMO Jaques Martin was a far bigger problem in last years playoffs than Patrick Lalime.

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Old
01-11-2005, 07:22 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
I think that's totally subjective though.

A Smyth for Havlat deal I think is totally fair straight up and has been beaten to death here. Havlat is definitely the more promising player, and younger, with a higher offensive upside, but Smyth brings intangibles - both in toughness and leadership - while bringing still a high skill level, that IMO it's a fair swap.

Morrow for Havlat has also been discussed, and I don't think that's totally off either - maybe Dallas adding a bit, but as reluctant as Sens fans are about giving up Havlat's potential, so are Star fans on giving up Morrow's potential.

Even this deal here isn't that bad... Bell is not the player that Havlat is, but add in the right ingredients with Bell and it's a worthwhile trade. I'd do it if Daze was to be included... or one of the top 3 dmen prospects from the Hawks which IMO makes the trade fair, although not really what the Sens could need, given their prospects on defense already.

Erik Cole has also been mentioned, and with the right players added on the Canes side this could also be a pretty decent deal for the Sens.

The point is that it's not so much that the offers aren't fair, it's that IMO you're looking for too much for Havlat to begin with. No doubt it's hard to give up that kind of quality, but he is the most tradeable asset in Ottawa, where you can move him to improve the left side and not hurt the team overall.

Frankly I think that Sens fans have been spoiled a bit by the excellent trades the team has made in the past, including the Yashin deal, that they simply aren't interested in anything that is "fair" but rather would deal Havlat only if there is a clear cut win on their side.

I disagree. We just dont want to get fleeced Olsson for Demitra style ever again.

Thing is we have a very solid team, why risk trading away a player who fits in very well with this team and who has produced very well for us if we arent getting equal value at least?

(not including the Smyth and Morrow deals which are very close)

In the deals you mentioned nobody can ever agree on what the add-in would be, or even if one is required, sens fans know we could use these guys and would be willing to trade Havlat for them but like I said we can never agree on the extra value Havlat posesses. (Hartnell, Bell, Cole deals come to mind)


P.S. That clear cut win part is B.S. every team is like that, actually in the Cole, Hartnell, Morrow, Smyth (etc...) for Havlat threads someone ALWAYS comes out with a comment like "If the sens want him they would have to overpay big time" or some weak crap like that. As if a player like Havlat is an everyday find.


Last edited by Bileur: 01-11-2005 at 07:28 PM.
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01-11-2005, 07:28 PM
  #17
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Actually Sens fans have made Havlat proposals many times on this board for players like Cole, Morrow and Hartnell, I even think it was Dallas fans who rejected the straight up Morrow-Havlat offer.

As to Bell for Havlat, it is a tough one, I personally think Havlat will end up outscoring Hossa so I'd rather not trade him and look elsewhere to fill needs but with the draft in Ottawa in 2005 and the Sens already lacking a 2nd in that draft, Bell + 2nd(05) and maybe another '05 pick or Havlat plus OTT's 1st(05) for Bell and CHI's 1st(05) would be very good value for the Sens.

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01-11-2005, 07:58 PM
  #18
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I find it puzzling how many here think that Bell and Barker or seabrooke is a good deal, while many claim that Havlat for Hartnell isnt. Hasnt bell accomplished more, more consistantly, while bringing a similar skill set? I am actually somewhat surprised as an ottawa fan that people here are willing to give bell + major prospect for havlat when everything recently has been undercutting havlat. I think that Bell would be great for the Sens, and would add alot to our team. Barker would be an incredible addition as well. Barker would be the logical replacement for Redden, who i think is more expendable than Hossa, and i think the Sens are going to have to decide between the two shortly as salaries will become an issue very soon

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01-11-2005, 08:43 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bileur

P.S. That clear cut win part is B.S. every team is like that, actually in the Cole, Hartnell, Morrow, Smyth (etc...) for Havlat threads someone ALWAYS comes out with a comment like "If the sens want him they would have to overpay big time" or some weak crap like that. As if a player like Havlat is an everyday find.
to be fair i said that, but you only tell half the story, and no I don't always say it, i said once or twice so quit making that up.

another was my reason why, Sens and Oilers fans make offers with Smyth+ for Havlat which isn't that fair or realistic, so my veiw of my "over-paying" at the time was a straight up trade which was like "taboo" towards sens fans

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01-11-2005, 08:45 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
Well I was looking through a post in the Blackhawks area and i noticed a couple guys were interested in Havlat.

To Blackhakws:
Havlat

To Senators:
Mark Bell
+ something else (maybe Arnason or a good prospect)

The Blackhawks get a key established, budding player to build around and an upgrade over Bell. The Seantors get the HUGE LW they want that has shown he can be a 20+ goal scorer and getting better each year. I am not sure what the addon would be but the Hawks do have a ton of prospects and they could probably we willing to let go of one of them (such as one of their defenseman) to get the deal done.

Thoughts???
With Arnason, yeah, maybe..
Spezza on 1st line and Arnason replace Bonk... yeah good proposal

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01-11-2005, 08:45 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HemskyFreak83
to be fair i said that, but you only tell half the story, and no I don't always say it, i said once or twice so quit making that up.

another was my reason why, Sens and Oilers fans make offers with Smyth+ for Havlat which isn't that fair or realistic, so my veiw of my "over-paying" at the time was a straight up trade which was like "taboo" towards sens fans

I never said you always say it. I said some always says it, it always comes up, I didnt name anyone. Sorry if you felt targeted it was not my intent.

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01-11-2005, 08:49 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bileur
I never said you always say it. I said some always says it, it always comes up, I didnt name anyone. Sorry if you felt targeted it was not my intent.
fair enough

we'll leave it at that

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01-11-2005, 10:21 PM
  #23
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No from a Sens fan.

Also, where does Arnason play if they acquire him?

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01-11-2005, 10:44 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by burgess1978
No from a Sens fan.

Also, where does Arnason play if they acquire him?
Quite easily #2 center.

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01-11-2005, 11:55 PM
  #25
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I think Bell and Arnason for Havlat is a pretty reasonable proposal. It defenitely balances out the team.

I to agree with Bileur and co about the sens real prolblem not being a first line "power winger". The sens outhit, outchanced and outshot the leafs last year, the prolblem was they didnt finish there scoring chances like the leafs did. Lalime was terrible in game 7 but if they had just finished there chances it never would have got to that point.

Jaques was also a major prolblem he played players like Todd White to much and guys like Mike Fisher, Jason Spezza and Peter Schaefer not enough.

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