Do you think that a NYR or a Montreal or a Toronto would do this sort of deal? I don't. I don't want to lose Shea, but this is a bad bad deal for any team because of the bonus money. It won't be insurable and he's had concussions. There's a potential lockout on the horizon and that money will have to be paid whether they play or not. Maybe some teams have deeper pockets, but I think a really smart NHL team says "no thanks" and hopes the buying team tanks for the next four years so they get high picks.
If we had a GM in montreal with the stones to do it then yes they would do it. When Sam Pollock was GM in Montreal the deals he turned to get the players he wanted were downright criminal.
Montreal Canadiens trade Ernie Hicke and Montreal’s 1970 first round draft pick to the California Golden Seals for Francois Lacombe, cash, and California’s first round draft pick.
The trade that Sam Pollack will always be most remembered for actually is a two part deal. This trade was made a year in advance of the 1971 draft. The Canadiens had already identified Guy Lafleur as their pick the next year. With the rules having changed and the Canadiens no longer holding the rights to all French players, Pollack bargained that the Seals would finish in last place and that the first pick would be Montreal’s.
However as the 1970-71 season played out the Seals actually were ahead of the Los Angeles Kings in the standings, bringing about the second part of the trade.
January 26th, 1971
Montreal Canadiens trade Ralph Backstrom to the Los Angeles Kings for Gord Labossiere and Ray Fortin
For the past year Backstrom had been voicing his desire to play in a warmer climate. Pollock granted his wish and got one of his own. A rejuvenated Backstrom helped lead the Kings out of the basement. The Seals finished in last place and the Canadiens armed with the first overall pick selected Guy Lafleur
Guess what? IT IS THEIR MONEY AND THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO HANDLE IT WISELY. Paying a deal with this type of structure may be a much bigger screwup than anything this team has ever done. It's so easy for us here to claim this is a mistake, and the team did that wrong, but it's not our business to run. It's not our millions of dollars invested. It's not our name on the debt load the team carries.
Bingo. I don't always agree with everything you say, but the structure of this deal was tailored to make it as difficult as possible for Nashville to match. It borders on being a poison pill. They may have told Webs 'we'll structure this in a way they CAN'T match it.' The more I think about it I want to barf when I read the posts claiming 'Holmgren did Poile a solid', 'no brainer you just have to match.'
If there is a lockout, or Weber suffers a concussion in game 3 under these terms, then what? As fans we are insulated from the consequences of trying to run this club. Has Poile made some mistakes along the way that produced this outcome? No question. And I won't even speak to Weber's part in this, we have no idea what he has told DP, his agent, anybody. I just know as a diehard fan days like these make me wonder why I get so committed to a team...
Maybe but like i said they better take a "measured" look at what got them in this mess. They made this bed they are going to lay in it either way. Hope they are happy because myself and hundreds of other Preds fans MAKE THEM THEIR MONEY are not.
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Originally Posted by JR303
Understood. Well said. All valid points.
What the issue here is, to me, is that while yes, those are the facts, they don't offer any construction. I will say that the ramifications of what COULD happen if we match will be terrible, I think the ramifications of what WILL happen if we walk away will be disastrous.
We've already lost the Tootoo PR battle. Many of the die-hards are okay with that, so it will only "affect" walk-up, casual types, but losing both Weber and Suter on top of that, well I think that will kill the spirit of a good bit of the die-hards. And if you don't have a good base, you won't have as much interest, including corporate sponsors, other free agents, not to mention that other GM's might even be in a better position to take advantage of the Predators after this.
My opinion isn't knee-jerk, it's a "do or die" mentality here for our little team that could. I will always laud the owners for stepping up when they did, against all odds and in a tough business model in the best of times and places, but this is what it takes to be a part of the NHL upper echelon.
Does the team have $13,000,000 cash available TODAY? If not, we simply can't afford this structure and have to let him walk.
Can the team afford $34million cash between now and July 1st next year for Rinne and Weber alone? For comparison, selling out every game at $55 per ticket brings in less than $39million from the gate. If that expenditure in the next 50 week is too much, they need to let Weber go.
PR do or die moments come and go. Financial do or die moments, or potential do and die moments, are serious.
Just a few months ago there was discussion if it was wise to tie up 22-23million of cap space in just three players. Now the demand is we tie up 27million in actual cash on one player over the next 50 weeks. Emotion cannot take precedence over fiscal responsibility for the front office leadership. If it is financially doable and the risk is deemed acceptable ... sign Weber. If the structure of this deal carries too much risk or simply cannot be afforded we have to let him go.
Bingo. I don't always agree with everything you say, but the structure of this deal was tailored to make it as difficult as possible for Nashville to match. It borders on being a poison pill. They may have told Webs 'we'll structure this in a way they CAN'T match it.' The more I think about it I want to barf when I read the posts claiming 'Holmgren did Poile a solid', 'no brainer you just have to match.'
If there is a lockout, or Weber suffers a concussion in game 3 under these terms, then what? As fans we are insulated from the consequences of trying to run this club. Has Poile made some mistakes along the way that produced this outcome? No question. And I won't even speak to Weber's part in this, we have no idea what he has told DP, his agent, anybody. I just know as a diehard fan days like these make me wonder why I get so committed to a team...
The same thing can happen in Philly. Why did they not blink an eye? Maybe because they know what it takes to win a cup because they have actually won a cup and been in the finals several times? I do not feel sorry for the Preds management one bit. They did this to themselves and should have seen this coming. Either way they could be screwed. This fanbase has not forgot about things in the past and it will not forget about the summer of Suter and Weber. How much longer are the fans of the Nashville Predators going to wring their hands and say well what if. Good grief makes me wonder why i am committed to.
Does the team have $13,000,000 cash available TODAY? If not, we simply can't afford this structure and have to let him walk.
Can the team afford $34million cash between now and July 1st next year for Rinne and Weber alone? For comparison, selling out every game at $55 per ticket brings in less than $39million from the gate. If that expenditure in the next 50 week is too much, they need to let Weber go.
PR do or die moments come and go. Financial do or die moments, or potential do and die moments, are serious.
Just a few months ago there was discussion if it was wise to tie up 22-23million of cap space in just three players. Now the demand is we tie up 27million in actual cash on one player over the next 50 weeks. Emotion cannot take precedence over fiscal responsibility for the front office leadership. If it is financially doable and the risk is deemed acceptable ... sign Weber. If the structure of this deal carries too much risk or simply cannot be afforded we have to let him go.
If they do not have the money they should not have sent their puppet Poile to the mic stating how they would match ANY offer sheet for Shea Weber. They also should not have let it get to where it is if they could not play big boy ball. It makes this franchise look like a joke and Philly management basically punched Nashville square in the face and said now do something about it kid.
What the issue here is, to me, is that while yes, those are the facts, they don't offer any construction. I will say that the ramifications of what COULD happen if we match will be terrible, I think the ramifications of what WILL happen if we walk away will be disastrous.
We've already lost the Tootoo PR battle. Many of the die-hards are okay with that, so it will only "affect" walk-up, casual types, but losing both Weber and Suter on top of that, well I think that will kill the spirit of a good bit of the die-hards. And if you don't have a good base, you won't have as much interest, including corporate sponsors, other free agents, not to mention that other GM's might even be in a better position to take advantage of the Predators after this.
My opinion isn't knee-jerk, it's a "do or die" mentality here for our little team that could. I will always laud the owners for stepping up when they did, against all odds and in a tough business model in the best of times and places, but this is what it takes to be a part of the NHL upper echelon.
I think that the pr department could use Brett Wilson's expertise. I think it is subpar and has been for a long time. The reason I mention this is because I think the issue of weber and suter can be explained to the general media area. I think it will take a concentrated well orchestrated effort, but I believe it can be done. But it is not something that this organization has been good at for over 10 years.
I think the reasoning that we can't afford the risk of a $13 million " Lombardi" issue, people will understand.
But the standard short statement and no media campaign this summer, will most definitely hurt us.
Headlines in the fish wrap. Weber is not worth $6 million more than Sidney Crosby. Media blitz the radio, social media .... Go on the offensive to explain.
People read the headlines and 140 characters. Blitz em
The same thing can happen in Philly. Why did they not blink an eye? Maybe because they know what it takes to win a cup because they have actually won a cup and been in the finals several times? I do not feel sorry for the Preds management one bit. They did this to themselves and should have seen this coming. Either way they could be screwed. This fanbase has not forgot about things in the past and it will not forget about the summer of Suter and Weber. How much longer are the fans of the Nashville Predators going to wring their hands and say well what if. Good grief makes me wonder why i am committed to.
$27 million dollars in next 12 months is more than the ticket revenues, and the Preds haven't made money except in one season [2007-2008]. The Preds are my second-favourite team but there's too much money here.
If they do not have the money they should not have sent their puppet Poile to the mic stating how they would match ANY offer sheet for Shea Weber. They also should not have let it get to where it is if they could not play big boy ball. It makes this franchise look like a joke and Philly management basically punched Nashville square in the face and said now do something about it kid.
You do not appear willing to differentiate between good faith offers and those that are obviously poisoned from the beginning. Ed Snider can bankroll a risk like this. Mr Comcast has the deep pockets and a team that hasn't won a Cup since 1975 so what is an acceptable risk for him is suicide for most other franchises. Look at the deal they signed Pronger to as an earlier example ... objectively it was a crazy deal for a 35+ player.
A more realistic gate total of 16.8k sold (still a high estimate) @ $50 average comes out to just over $35million from ticket revenue. Essentially all of that would go to Rinne and Weber if the team matches this offer. Cap hit is irrelevant here ... what matters is under this structure can the team afford it and at what level of risk.
At this point in the game, I really don't care. The first jersey I bought with a name and number was 6 and now I am just bummed beyond belief. Weber has more or less told Smashville to go pound sand. Fine, let him go to Philly, we will take the picks, use a few for trades and then pray for a lockout so Philly is stuck holding the bag.
I am not at all comfortable with a 14 year deal. What if we do match and he just starts to mail it in for us? Heaven forbid, he gets injured. 14 years and all that cash is a just a bit too risky. Worse yet, can we really afford to pull the trigger on this and then have a lockout?
If we do match, do we still let him rock the "C"? What kind of message will that send to the rest of the club? Be a self centered so and so and you will get anything you want out of this club? So we match and rip the "C" off his shirt and then we get a disgruntled guy who already had an axe to grind with us since arbitration and expect him to go all out for the next 14 years? Not likely.
Let him go, face the fallout and rebuild. Just another summer of drama for Preds fans, what else is new? It's not the end of the world and I will still be a proud citizen of Smashville the next time we drop the puck.
You do not appear willing to differentiate between good faith offers and those that are obviously poisoned from the beginning. Ed Snider can bankroll a risk like this. Mr Comcast has the deep pockets and a team that hasn't won a Cup since 1975 so what is an acceptable risk for him is suicide for most other franchises. Look at the deal they signed Pronger to as an earlier example ... objectively it was a crazy deal for a 35+ player.
A more realistic gate total of 16.8k sold (still a high estimate) @ $50 average comes out to just over $35million from ticket revenue. Essentially all of that would go to Rinne and Weber if the team matches this offer. Cap hit is irrelevant here ... what matters is under this structure can the team afford it and at what level of risk.
The right choice isn't always the popular one.
Agreed, this is a poisoned contract. It was specifically designed so that Nashville would not have the cash on hand to pay, and isn't in a great debt position for a bank loan. Some people will go "life's not fair, deal with it", or "this is business", but this kind of offer sheet is not supposed to happen.
You do not appear willing to differentiate between good faith offers and those that are obviously poisoned from the beginning. Ed Snider can bankroll a risk like this. Mr Comcast has the deep pockets and a team that hasn't won a Cup since 1975 so what is an acceptable risk for him is suicide for most other franchises. Look at the deal they signed Pronger to as an earlier example ... objectively it was a crazy deal for a 35+ player.
A more realistic gate total of 16.8k sold (still a high estimate) @ $50 average comes out to just over $35million from ticket revenue. Essentially all of that would go to Rinne and Weber if the team matches this offer. Cap hit is irrelevant here ... what matters is under this structure can the team afford it and at what level of risk.
The right choice isn't always the popular one.
Funny thing is this poisoned contract is a square punch in the face to Nashville was caused by what? The right choice or the choice we have no choice in going with now because of a series of total screw ups? Losing Weber is far from the right choice under these circumstances.
Agreed, this is a poisoned contract. It was specifically designed so that Nashville would not have the cash on hand to pay, and isn't in a great debt position for a bank loan. Some people will go "life's not fair, deal with it", or "this is business", but this kind of offer sheet is not supposed to happen.
It definitely goes under the sub-title, "barely legal". The fact that this is happening during CBA negotiations is pretty ironic. Holmgren is pulling out all the stops to get the guy he wants. Is it legal, yes, will he make any friends by doing this, not likely. Effing cheap shot.
Funny thing is this poisoned contract is a square punch in the face to Nashville was caused by what? The right choice or the choice we have no choice in going with now because of a series of total screw ups? Losing Weber is far from the right choice under these circumstances.
Agreed, Weber and Suter should never have been able to get this far and should have been traded. Their value would have been HUGE at the deadline, instead of getting 4 late-1st rounders for Weber and nothing for Suter.
The contract sucks, but no matter how you slice it it's still 14M per season as far as budget year is concerned. You budget per season and can't look what you get from attendence for 1 year and compare it to 27M, the second years attendence will factor in for paying for that sum as well.
The affect would probably be about cashflow more than the money by itself though. Still you can't calculate as some are doing here (specially hopeful flyers fans).
The contract sucks, but no matter how you slice it it's still 14M per season as far as budget year is concerned. You budget per season and can't look what you get from attendence for 1 year and compare it to 27M, the second years attendence will factor in for paying for that sum as well.
The affect would probably be about cashflow more than the money by itself though. Still you can't calculate as some are doing here (specially hopeful flyers fans).
... Except that Weber is due $27M in 12 months, any way you go about it, that's before the next season, so forget next season's ticket stubs. You can calculate it, pretty simply.
Agreed, Weber and Suter should never have been able to get this far and should have been traded. Their value would have been HUGE at the deadline, instead of getting 4 late-1st rounders for Weber and nothing for Suter.
Poile would've been BLASTED for trading two of his best players going into the playoffs. Teams just don't do that.
Poile would've been BLASTED for trading two of his best players going into the playoffs. Teams just don't do that.
And now he'll get nothing in return except four late first rounders or the trade value thereof, which will be low because Philly is a very good team and will not draft high.
And now he'll get nothing in return except four late first rounders or the trade value thereof, which will be low because Philly is a very good team and will not draft high.
The only legit criticism would be that he didn't get these players locked up into longer deals last summer. But playoff bound teams just can't trade away their best players because they are unsure if they'll re-sign.
The same thing can happen in Philly. Why did they not blink an eye?
Or it could be that (based upon 2010 Forbes article) the Flyers have $47 million more in revenue EACH YEAR than the Preds? ($121 million versus $74 million.) That puts the $27 million in perspective.
If they do not have the money they should not have sent their puppet Poile to the mic stating how they would match ANY offer sheet for Shea Weber.
They have the money to match the contract size. When Poile initially said they would match NO ONE had seen a contract like Suter, Parise or Weber's. It's a one time phenomenon.
Just one more note on the whole situation: When the structure of compensatory picks was established, it was NEVER measured against a predatory contract like this. No way the CBA negotiators envisioned s 14 year contract that was 90% bonus the first 4 years. They should have established as RATIO of 1st round picks + against a salary benchmark. Say, one first round pick per 1.5 million of total contract value (salary + bonus over length). Think anybody would risk 8 first round picks (which is approximately what this would come to)???
Reading the posts, I agree, Philly made this deal almost impossible financially for Nashville to match. I keep hearing media types saying "they have to match, or they tell their fans they can't compete". IMO, if they match, they all but guarantee failure. Weber is not "financially" worth that money over the next five years. No way is having Weber going to bring in enough revenue to pay the contract off.
I see two scenerios:
1. They let him walk, take the picks and rebuild. The new CBA will likely disallow the unfair advantage.
2. They negotiate a trade with Philly for the draft picks. IE. We will not match offer, and in return we will give you back 2 first round picks for Andrej Meszaros and Sean Couturier (As an example).
