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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

greatest Players biggest weakness??

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Old
07-20-2012, 10:29 AM
  #26
Saku11
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Originally Posted by feffan View Post
some you want to let be and hope they donīt bring their a-game.
Isnt that a weakness then? I mean great players should bring their a-game always.

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07-20-2012, 10:45 AM
  #27
TheDevilMadeMe
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Gretzky - small, weak, wouldn't battle in corners, terrible at faceoffs, became worse defensively as injuries caught up to him
Lemieux - lazy and poorly conditioned, especially early in his career, always a defensive nonfactor
Jagr - low compete level and essentially uncoachable, not a backchecker
Messier - huge ego, became a big problem late in his career when his play could no longer live up to it
Joe Sakic - not physical at all
Steve Yzerman - needed to sacrifice much of his offense to became great defensively

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07-20-2012, 11:08 AM
  #28
Ivan13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Gretzky - small, weak, wouldn't battle in corners, terrible at faceoffs, became worse defensively as injuries caught up to him
Lemieux - lazy and poorly conditioned, especially early in his career, always a defensive nonfactor
Jagr - low compete level and essentially uncoachable, not a backchecker
Messier - huge ego, became a big problem late in his career when his play could no longer live up to it
Joe Sakic - not physical at all
Steve Yzerman - needed to sacrifice much of his offense to became great defensively






Back on a serious note, yes I would say that physicality is an aspect of the game where Sakic could've been better. But if he played a more physical brand of hockey he probably wouldn't be as good later on in his career.

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07-20-2012, 11:21 AM
  #29
TheDevilMadeMe
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Back on a serious note, yes I would say that physicality is an aspect of the game where Sakic could've been better. But if he played a more physical brand of hockey he probably wouldn't be as good later on in his career.
Heh, yeah. I mean, Sakic was the hardest one of the guys listed to think of a weakness for. Compared to some of the others, he wasn't much of a puck possession player, which may or may not be a weakness depending on how you look at it.

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07-20-2012, 11:38 AM
  #30
Johnny Engine
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Plante - none
Hasek - if you want to call it a weakness, maybe a bit of an enigma
If Plante played in a media-saturated era, he'd be considered as wacky as Bryzgalov. One story I've heard is that he would refuse to stay in the hotel the Habs used when visiting Toronto (Royal York), saying it's "bad air" made him physically sick. He also got sick after staying at another hotel and dreaming that he was at the Royal York.

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07-20-2012, 11:40 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Heh, yeah. I mean, Sakic was the hardest one of the guys listed to think of a weakness for. Compared to some of the others, he wasn't much of a puck possession player, which may or may not be a weakness depending on how you look at it.
IMHO his defensive game early on in his career (until mid to late 90's) wasn't great, I would list that as his biggest weakness.

Physicality is a difficult trait to value (just as ego), would Forsberg or Lindros be as good or as intimidating as they were without using their bodies? They most likely wouldn't, but their reckless abandon to their bodies was their undoing as well.

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07-20-2012, 11:42 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Plante - none
Hasek - if you want to call it a weakness, maybe a bit of an enigma
Plante - his game completely fell apart when he was asked to carry a bad team (the Rangers)
Hasek - wouldn't or couldn't play through injuries, which led his teammates to question his commitment more than once. put his feud with a coach above the team at least once

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07-20-2012, 12:37 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Saku11 View Post
Isnt that a weakness then? I mean great players should bring their a-game always.
Forsberg did play his heart out every game, but a pissed Forsberg would score three points, stare you straight in the eye, and turn you into bloody pulp. Peter was one of those guys that was an incredible player, but even better with the emotions running high.

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07-20-2012, 12:47 PM
  #34
vadim sharifijanov
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fill in the blanks for these three hall of fame talents:

bertuzzi lacks ______, yashin lacks ______, turgeon lacks _______.


bonus: weber parise wants to ________.

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07-20-2012, 12:49 PM
  #35
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Brett Hull didn't really have the passion to play.
And yet he is 3rd overall in the history of the NHL. Explain to me how that works.

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07-20-2012, 12:53 PM
  #36
Canadiens1958
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Asthma

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Engine View Post
If Plante played in a media-saturated era, he'd be considered as wacky as Bryzgalov. One story I've heard is that he would refuse to stay in the hotel the Habs used when visiting Toronto (Royal York), saying it's "bad air" made him physically sick. He also got sick after staying at another hotel and dreaming that he was at the Royal York.
Jacques Plante suffered from asthma since childhood. The Royal York in Toronto was near the lake, a block from the Gardiner Expressway.Between the Gardiner across the street from the Royal York was Union Station - busiest rail station in Canada. Not ideal for asthma sufferers.

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07-20-2012, 12:58 PM
  #37
Johnny Engine
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Jacques Plante suffered from asthma since childhood. The Royal York in Toronto was near the lake, a block from the Gardiner Expressway.Between the Gardiner across the street from the Royal York was Union Station - busiest rail station in Canada. Not ideal for asthma sufferers.
Well there's your weakness for Plante right there. Asthma.

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07-20-2012, 01:00 PM
  #38
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Not So

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Plante - his game completely fell apart when he was asked to carry a bad team (the Rangers)
Hasek - wouldn't or couldn't play through injuries, which led his teammates to question his commitment more than once. put his feud with a coach above the team at least once
His game did not fall apart. See his Ranger SV% vs his prime Canadiens:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid[]=4310

Factor in the effects for an asthma sufferer living and playing in NYC.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 07-20-2012 at 02:33 PM.
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07-20-2012, 01:04 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Johnny Engine View Post
Well there's your weakness for Plante right there. Asthma.
And how many asthma sufferers play hockey let alone make the NHL and the HHOF?

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07-20-2012, 01:35 PM
  #40
Rob Scuderi
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Jacques Plante suffered from asthma since childhood. The Royal York in Toronto was near the lake, a block from the Gardiner Expressway.Between the Gardiner across the street from the Royal York was Union Station - busiest rail station in Canada. Not ideal for asthma sufferers.
Maybe that wasn't an ideal example, but he was more eccentric than seems to be mentioned wasn't he? I had the perception of him as the measured professor with "a book" on everything from shooters to arenas etc. but his brief coaching stint in the WHA made me wonder if there was more to Plante.

I believe his players considered him to be more interested in cross-country skiing than coaching while in Quebec, leaving J.C. Tremblay and Jean-Guy Gendron to run practices during his numerous absences. Maybe you can't speak to this, but would you consider this an isolated incident or emblematic of some seemingly unmentioned eccentricities?

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07-20-2012, 01:45 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post






Back on a serious note, yes I would say that physicality is an aspect of the game where Sakic could've been better. But if he played a more physical brand of hockey he probably wouldn't be as good later on in his career.
I really like Sakic. I had him in this years ATD.

But yeah, these are probably the only two times he hit anyone in his career.

And I don't find any fault with that because:

a) it obviously contributed to his longevity

b) he was effective without being bruising

c) your example there of him standing up to Stevens is a perfect example that he was willing to take a hit to make a play etc.

ie. He wasn't unwilling to do what had to be done to win.


So I really don't see it as a "weakness" in his game. Maybe he would have been more effective for a shorter while if he had that aspect to his game though, who knows.

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07-20-2012, 01:53 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
fill in the blanks for these three hall of fame talents:

bertuzzi lacks ______, yashin lacks ______, turgeon lacks _______.


bonus: weber parise wants to ________.


oh this is fun

Bertuzzi lacks foot speed, yashin lacks determination, turgeon lacks drive

Parise wants to win


how did i do?

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07-20-2012, 02:26 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
One could argue that his ego was one of his strenghts.
There is a strong argument that his ego cost him the Stanley Cup in 2002. Instead of the simple save he does the "Statue of Liberty" in Game 6 and the Red Wings score with the loose puck. The Avs lose that game and then get blown out for Game 7. In the final it would have been a relatively easy Canes team for the picking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Engine View Post
If Plante played in a media-saturated era, he'd be considered as wacky as Bryzgalov. One story I've heard is that he would refuse to stay in the hotel the Habs used when visiting Toronto (Royal York), saying it's "bad air" made him physically sick. He also got sick after staying at another hotel and dreaming that he was at the Royal York.
He did have to knit just to calm his nerves because of Toe Blake.

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07-20-2012, 02:39 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
One could argue that his ego was one of his strenghts.
Let say a double edge sword (like the statue of liberty goal).

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07-20-2012, 02:39 PM
  #45
Ivan13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
There is a strong argument that his ego cost him the Stanley Cup in 2002. Instead of the simple save he does the "Statue of Liberty" in Game 6 and the Red Wings score with the loose puck. The Avs lose that game and then get blown out for Game 7. In the final it would have been a relatively easy Canes team for the picking.



He did have to knit just to calm his nerves because of Toe Blake.
Yes there is, that moment was a turning point in that series, but my point was that he probably wouldn't be as good of a goalie without his ego/swagger. There's two sides to every coin.

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07-20-2012, 02:57 PM
  #46
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Iconoclast

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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Maybe that wasn't an ideal example, but he was more eccentric than seems to be mentioned wasn't he? I had the perception of him as the measured professor with "a book" on everything from shooters to arenas etc. but his brief coaching stint in the WHA made me wonder if there was more to Plante.

I believe his players considered him to be more interested in cross-country skiing than coaching while in Quebec, leaving J.C. Tremblay and Jean-Guy Gendron to run practices during his numerous absences. Maybe you can't speak to this, but would you consider this an isolated incident or emblematic of some seemingly unmentioned eccentricities?
Jacques Plante was an iconoclast who preferred to knit to relax while his teammates did regular hockey player things in their spare time during the regular season. He was obsessive about details - measuring nets - found Chicago nets were a bit short, advocating the two goalie systems and position coaching, etc.

The coaching situation in Quebec the first few WHA seasons was unique. Their first was Maurice Richard whose coaching background was helping kids in the Ahuntsic minor hockey association, Soon After Plante got the job.Basically the Nordiques were hiring former Canadiens' greats for the media attention. Plante let his two veterans coach the offense and the defense. He ran the games and worked with the goalies. He also coordinated everything and ran the games, all without no head coaching experience.

His work with the goalies made Richard Brodeur a very good goalie and with Michel Deguise and Serge Aubrey plus a defense that was J.C. Tremblay and an offense based on Serge Bernier and Rejean Houle managed a season >.500.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/QBN/1974.html

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Old
07-20-2012, 03:09 PM
  #47
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gino odjick - not the smoothest skater, not the most effective playmaker, didn't have a rocket of a shot, sometimes too happy when he scored which led to the occasional overcelebration

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07-20-2012, 03:13 PM
  #48
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by kahlon66 View Post
oh this is fun

Bertuzzi lacks foot speed, yashin lacks determination, turgeon lacks drive

Parise wants to win


how did i do?
"i'll have you know bertuzzi was plenty fast in his prime."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
There is a strong argument that his ego cost him the Stanley Cup in 2002. Instead of the simple save he does the "Statue of Liberty" in Game 6 and the Red Wings score with the loose puck. The Avs lose that game and then get blown out for Game 7. In the final it would have been a relatively easy Canes team for the picking.
i chalk that one up to you win some, you lose some. do they habs win in '93 or the avs in '96 without roy's bravado (the famous episodes being against sandstrom and roenick, respectively)? seems like it would have been worth throwing away that one cup for the juice that helped win him the four others.

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07-20-2012, 03:22 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i chalk that one up to you win some, you lose some. do they habs win in '93 or the avs in '96 without roy's bravado (the famous episodes being against sandstrom and roenick, respectively)? seems like it would have been worth throwing away that one cup for the juice that helped win him the four others.
Perhaps. Got to give 1996 to Sakic though. I think adding to it you'd have to think Roy has an Olympic Gold medal around his neck in 2002 had he played. (I won't get into the debate about why he didn't want to play but it is hard to imagine ego not being a big part of the reason)

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07-20-2012, 03:35 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
"i'll have you know bertuzzi was plenty fast in his prime."




i chalk that one up to you win some, you lose some. do they habs win in '93 or the avs in '96 without roy's bravado (the famous episodes being against sandstrom and roenick, respectively)? seems like it would have been worth throwing away that one cup for the juice that helped win him the four others.

Roy's confidence in his own abilities is what made him great. His on ice "bravado" is an extension of that, but in and of itself, not the reason he was good or won any cups.

If he didn't wink at Sandstrom or talk trash to Roenick, would those outcomes be the same? Sure.
If he didn't do the state of liberty, would the outcome be the same? Hmm....

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