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Aurora, CO Movie Theater Shooting

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Old
07-21-2012, 09:51 PM
  #176
madman
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Originally Posted by electricjib View Post
Alot of it is preparedness. If **** hits the fan at some point in time I want to know I can defend my home. But in my case its not so much about protection. If people want to break into our house the likelihood of getting to a weapon and ammo quick enough could be subject to safely stowing your weapon, you already have the underhand if you actually smart about this.

The laws in Colorado are fine. This comes back to my statement before. This insidence is being portrayed that this guy picked up all his gear on the internet and from some store. And making people think that OH NO, Create mass panic, Billy Bob can go to WalMart and come back and kill everyone. That is not the case, but how it is being spun. It took him 4 months to acquire gear, obviously there are back channels involved since some of the gear requires federal approval and permits. Neither my brother or myself have these permits without proper training and time taken (usually longer than 4 months, more like a year). And my brother is current military and i'm former. He had help. Changing laws won't prevent this from happening in the future.

I don't even know why you made a ballistics argument here. The guy turned himself in to the cops. Every other incident that has happened like this the killer has shot himself...heck the guy cared enough to tell the police his apartment was booby trapped.

Getting ballistics samples from purchase won't help much to be honest, sure in the perfect case it will, but so many guns are manufactured off the same line you can have 100 guns with matching samples, and 100 guns could go to 20 different states and 75 different cities. And criminals in states that know they buy a gun and that there ballistic samples are in the authorities hands will likely find/steal or acquire a weapon another way. I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, I just feel the clamps on what this country used to have as far as rights goes is already being taken from the people. Why do it more when this incident really wouldn't be a case it would've helped in.

Protection from firearms is more a mindset IMO. I have no problem with people purchasing weapons. Honestly IMO the best approach is make there be a premium tax/price on weapons to make it harder to obtain to the average joe. This is an approach taken in multiple professional industries such as Photography/Filmmaking. Charge higher prices and rates to prevent the average person from stealing work because they can afford the product. If it can't be obtained at a hobby price it stays in the hands of professionals. Possibly a similar approach to weapons?
FWIW, I do agree. I think this is about as extreme, isolated example you can get of someone just going off the deep end and acting out in a really sick manner. You can't regulate firearms, movie theaters, apartment complexes or anything else based on random acts of terror like this. We all know regulation doesn't prevent bad **** like this from happening once and a while even in a relatively safe state like Colorado. If someone really wants a gun, no matter what they want to use it for, even with the strictest of laws, that individual is going to find a way to get one.

As for the bold, I only brought up the ballistics issue because there is absolutely no good reason not to have a required state database. I know it's not relevant to this case specifically, but there are still over 1,000 homicide cold cases in Denver alone, and I guarantee having ballistics info required for every sale wouldn't get potential gun owner's trousers in a bunch. No, it's not perfect, it wouldn't answer all the questions, but it's easy and not invasive. Just do it.

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07-21-2012, 10:06 PM
  #177
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He doesn't deserve the right to live any longer?

Tell me, what gives one the right to live?

Or, more expressly, what gives one the right to forfeit another's life for some imaginary concept of justice? (and yes, "justice" is imaginary).

Killing someone who is already in police custody and has literally no chance of ever getting out of prison has nothing to do with if you should be terrified next time you hit up the theater.

With regards to gun control, if guns could be regulated in the absolute sense, I don't think that there is much of an argument to be made that gun control is in some way (actually, in many ways) effective, as we have seen time and time again in other countries.

That stated, there is and will continue to be an American black market for firearms, and one that will continue to pump guns into our society.

There is a reason why study after study pertaining to gun control is inconclusive, because it's actually impossible to control guns in America.

And you're right, guns don't kill people, they just make killing easier.
Anyone who is alive has the "right" to remain alive unless they so choose otherwise. But when you purposely end multiple peoples lives you waive that "right" and you shouldn't be able to continue to live prison or not. I guess the question is if you had loved ones that were horrifically gunned down by some psychopath for no reason how would you feel and what would you think was fair? I would guess that most of the families who are affected by this tragedy would want this guy dead and not be given the opportunity to continue living on taxpayer dollars in the prison system.

I disagree with you argument on gun control because once again the key here is that guns don't kill people, people kill people. The reason all these tests on gun control are inconclusive are because guns aren't the root of the problem. The root of the problem is people. People are unpredictable and no matter why kind of "tests" you perform you'll still get people that don't show signs of any mental problems and could pass even more strict testing for guns, but they could still "snap" and go over the deep end. Guns don't magically go off, it takes a person holding one and squeezing the trigger.

Plus you talk about guns making it easier to kill someone. Well the counter to that is there are tons of things that are legal that make it easier to kill someone like rat poison or a car or a hunting knife, I could go on but I think you get the point. What do you want to do with all those things? Should we ban everything that makes it easy to kill someone? We as a society need to stop blaming everything but ourselves. We need to take responsibility for our actions.

Its obvious that we have differing opinions on the topic of gun control and some general philosophies on life/politics and that's perfectly fine. You are entitled to your opinions as I'm entitled to mine. But this really isn't the time or place to get into a debate on political topics. This thread is about the paying respect to the victims of a terrible tragedy that should never have happened and we should keep the thread on topic.


Last edited by chet1926: 07-21-2012 at 10:14 PM.
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07-21-2012, 10:10 PM
  #178
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This was a truly awful act to commit, but I don't agree with some of the statements saying he should be killed in front of a firing squad. Eye for Eye is not the answer and after taking a violence psychology class it is clear that this man was not right in the head. He hould be put away...in a mental institute. This is a clear case of a psuedo-commando mass murderer. Similar case was that of James Oliver Huberty when he went into a California McDonald and shot 20 people.

People who commit these acts snap and at that point there is nothing in their brain that will stop them from committing these acts

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07-21-2012, 10:20 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by MyersMagic57 View Post
This was a truly awful act to commit, but I don't agree with some of the statements saying he should be killed in front of a firing squad. Eye for Eye is not the answer and after taking a violence psychology class it is clear that this man was not right in the head. He hould be put away...in a mental institute. This is a clear case of a psuedo-commando mass murderer. Similar case was that of James Oliver Huberty when he went into a California McDonald and shot 20 people.

People who commit these acts snap and at that point there is nothing in their brain that will stop them from committing these acts
So anybody who "snaps" should be committed to a facility where there is the potential he could escape and do it all again.

I agree some people snap and need to be committed, but there are just some people like this guy, the Unibomber, Bundy, Gacy, Manson, that are too big of risks to society and should not be part of it or have any chance to be a part of it.

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07-21-2012, 10:21 PM
  #180
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Like Iceland and Denmark, right?

It's a myth that one has to have guns for an ostensibly free society.
Not disagreeing with you, but look at their population.

Denmark is 111th in the world.
Iceland is 178th in the world.

America is 3rd.

When you have that MANY people then crime is going to elevated. Even with a no gun or limited gun policy he still would've killed people. Would have found another way to get guns. Only country this rule doesn't apply to is Japan, which has a obedient, respect your fellow neighbor life style. Definitely something that is rare in America nowadays.

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07-21-2012, 10:23 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by chet1926 View Post
So anybody who "snaps" should be committed to a facility where there is the potential he could escape and do it all again.

I agree some people snap and need to be committed, but there are just some people like this guy, the Unibomber, Bundy, Gacy, Manson, that are too big of risks to society and should not be part of it or have any chance to be a part of it.
True, but if you get him somewhere where there is no chance to escape it allows us to learn more about people who act like this and any red flags in order to prevent these things from happening

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07-21-2012, 10:30 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Alex Jones View Post
Tell me, what gives one the right to live?
Society, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Jones View Post
Or, more expressly, what gives one the right to forfeit another's life for some imaginary concept of justice? (and yes, "justice" is imaginary).
Usually one's personal actions versus governmental arrangements. I suppose there may be more nuanced situations though.

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Killing someone who is already in police custody and has literally no chance of ever getting out of prison has nothing to do with if you should be terrified next time you hit up the theater.
This is entirely true, his life is completely irrelevant to movie theaters now that he is detained. Killing him would save tax dollars though. It's a question of which would be the more effective punishment: confinement or death. Rehabilitation, realistic or not, doesn't even come into consideration.

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Originally Posted by Alex Jones View Post
That stated, there is and will continue to be an American black market for firearms, and one that will continue to pump guns into our society.
Not to mention the reduction of gun related crimes, if applicable, would simply be balanced by an increase in knife wounds and the like.


Mass murderers -- I would call them terrorists but in America those are simply "dirty Arabs" nowadays -- will find a way to kill people in other ways if guns are eliminated. It's more of a mentality issue than physical arsenal at disposal, though the latter helps in committing crimes easier obviously.

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07-21-2012, 10:42 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by NHL33 View Post
Society, of course.


Usually one's personal actions versus governmental arrangements. I suppose there may be more nuanced situations though.


This is entirely true, his life is completely irrelevant to movie theaters now that he is detained. Killing him would save tax dollars though. It's a question of which would be the more effective punishment: confinement or death. Rehabilitation, realistic or not, doesn't even come into consideration.


Not to mention the reduction of gun related crimes, if applicable, would simply be balanced by an increase in knife wounds and the like.


Mass murderers -- I would call them terrorists but in America those are simply "dirty Arabs" nowadays -- will find a way to kill people in other ways if guns are eliminated. It's more of a mentality issue than physical arsenal at disposal, though the latter helps in committing crimes easier obviously.
This is 100% spot on that is the question. I probably got a bit carried away saying he should be automatically sentenced to death. This whole situation is just a bit touchy to me. He will get the standard treatment and if they decide confinement thats what they decide even if I don't agree with it. Either way he will get what he deserves.

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07-22-2012, 12:02 AM
  #184
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What heartbreaking stories in this...

Alex Sullivan went to the movie to celebrate his 27th birthday, two days before the first anniversary of his marriage.

Rebecca Wingo, 32 had 3 children

& the youngest 6 year old Veronica Moser. Veronica’s mother, Ashley, is in critical condition with a bullet in the throat and another one in the stomach.

FOX31 Denver spoke with their cousin, Katherine Young, who said Ashley’s father died just two months ago because of cancer.


http://kdvr.com/2012/07/21/victims-remembered/


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07-22-2012, 01:55 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by chet1926 View Post
This is 100% spot on that is the question. I probably got a bit carried away saying he should be automatically sentenced to death. This whole situation is just a bit touchy to me. He will get the standard treatment and if they decide confinement thats what they decide even if I don't agree with it. Either way he will get what he deserves.
I've always been against the death penalty for two reasons 1) that it would suck worse to live in prison for life and 2) counterintuitively, putting someone to death often costs more than life in prison after all the appeals and whatnot. I don't think he deserves to leave the world without answering for his actions.

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07-22-2012, 06:02 AM
  #186
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my tv been on CNN since it's happend and just watching it and hereing from the stories of ppl who surivived just gives me the chills

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07-22-2012, 07:09 AM
  #187
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[I]Alex Sullivan went to the movie to celebrate his 27th birthday, two days before the first anniversary of his marriage.
Without going any deeper details, he was a friend of my friend. I personally had never heard about him.

For some reason I didn't see him in the video where they showed the names of victims.

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07-22-2012, 09:18 AM
  #188
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Without going any deeper details, he was a friend of my friend. I personally had never heard about him.

For some reason I didn't see him in the video where they showed the names of victims.
I'm so sorry to hear that.

Alex's info & picture about it being his 27th birthday, he tweeted about it, was all over CNN, CBC when they were talking about the victims.

My TV has been on CNN since it happened.

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07-22-2012, 12:06 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by MyersMagic57 View Post
This was a truly awful act to commit, but I don't agree with some of the statements saying he should be killed in front of a firing squad. Eye for Eye is not the answer and after taking a violence psychology class it is clear that this man was not right in the head. He hould be put away...in a mental institute. This is a clear case of a psuedo-commando mass murderer. Similar case was that of James Oliver Huberty when he went into a California McDonald and shot 20 people.

People who commit these acts snap and at that point there is nothing in their brain that will stop them from committing these acts
Why should our tax money be used to support some life-taking psycopaths pitiful existance in a mental home? Sounds like a waste to me. I say remove the cotton from society and bring back the chair. You cant undo these acts and you sure as hell cant stand for it.

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07-22-2012, 06:12 PM
  #190
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Why should our tax money be used to support some life-taking psycopaths pitiful existance in a mental home? Sounds like a waste to me. I say remove the cotton from society and bring back the chair. You cant undo these acts and you sure as hell cant stand for it.
It costs more than you think to have somebody executed. Might as well let him rot in a cell for the rest of his life.

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07-22-2012, 06:40 PM
  #191
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They should let him rot in a 6*4 cell for the rest of his life with no human interaction. Let him out twice a day to go to the restroom and lock him up the rest of the time.

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07-22-2012, 08:02 PM
  #192
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I've always been against the death penalty for two reasons 1) that it would suck worse to live in prison for life and 2) counterintuitively, putting someone to death often costs more than life in prison after all the appeals and whatnot. I don't think he deserves to leave the world without answering for his actions.
i'm against the death penalty because I consider it barbaric. Somehow killing people doesn't seem like the answer to societies woes.

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07-22-2012, 09:08 PM
  #193
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Man, first of all, my heart absolutely goes out to all those involved in this horrific tragedy.

The more I read and think about this, the more angry I am getting at different news articles/outlets that are attempting to portray this man as being "Crazy" just because he presented himself as "The Joker" when apprehended.

I am angry at that notion because it could NOT BE MORE OBVIOUS that this man is NOT crazy, he's just violent. With the supposed amount of ammunition and the guns he had, as well as the gear he had and so on and so forth, it's just too damn obvious that he knew EXACTLY what he was doing. He had complete control of his faculties and as has been reported, had been planning this for months!

I don't see him as a someone who just "snapped" one day and went off on a violent tangent, nor do I believe you guys who've posted here would believe that as well.

The problem is, what type of punishment do you give someone like this? Someone who made a CONCIOUS decision to commit this act of PURE EVIL, that's what this was, an act of pure evil. What type of punishment do you give them? The Death Penalty hardly seems adequate enough.

People like this man and Dennis Rader (BTK Killer), people who committed these villainous acts of violence, who did it and planned it and carefully executed it, how do you find and carry out a proper punishment for these individuals?

Because no matter WHAT punishment will await him, it will unabashadely pale in comparison to the unfair/unjust pain and suffering that the families of the victims are going through right now.

I'm not a man who cries at situations like this, where people who have succumbed to an unimaginable tragedy. Sure I usually feel remorse and sad for the victims as well as their families. But with this, I don't know if it's because I've been to that theatre before, during visits to Denver to see Avs games, with this I've caught myself shedding tears. I don't mean to sound inhuman, it's just I've only usually cried at the "usual" events in life, like a death of a family member.

I am through with my rant, I am sorry if my words offended anyone.

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07-22-2012, 09:21 PM
  #194
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Death penalty is wrong.

If you consider appeals and everything it is more expensive than a life long prison sentence. So there goes that argument.

And most importantly. We as society condemn killing humans.

It is the rule above everything. Do not kill other people.

Society should be better than that. If we bow down to the offenders level and take his god given right to live, we as a society act in conflict to our own most important rule. I don't care what anyone did. Let him be judged by god or his own conscience. Our duty as a society is to prevent him from doing any further crime and to punish him in order to show that such a behavior is not acceptable.

That is why Mr. Holmes will not and should not be a free man for probably the rest of his life.

I don't buy the "it is satisfying for the victims" argument either.

Maybe at first it is. Humans are vengeful creatures. But in the end no one will get his beloved back by his death. No one will be able to undo what he did. Their lifes do not change at all in comparison to him being in jail forever. This satisfaction they get from watching him die is not very healthy and does not last very long.

So put this lunatic in a cell and be done with it.

Edit: I don't think this guy is sane. Only because you can carefully plan and act accordingly to it does not make you less crazy. Look at him and Breivik. If you are cold blooded enough to murder kids and teenagers, you are not mentally healthy in my mind. Especially if you do not even have an agenda (like Breivik) and just kill for the heck of it.

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07-22-2012, 09:48 PM
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisp Breakout View Post
I've always been against the death penalty for two reasons 1) that it would suck worse to live in prison for life and 2) counterintuitively, putting someone to death often costs more than life in prison after all the appeals and whatnot. I don't think he deserves to leave the world without answering for his actions.
Not to mention that advances in DNA testing have proven the innocence of several high-profile incarcerated people in recent years. One of them even here in Colorado (Timothy Masters).

edit: high-profile after their wrongful incarceration was proven


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07-23-2012, 01:24 AM
  #196
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While there have been a lot of good arguments brought up against capital punishment in general, I don't think they apply well to the Aurora shooting. Here is a case where it is cut-and-dry who committed the murder, and while you could argue such a capital case would be burdened with a long-drawn case about the man's sanity, the fact is that a large scale premeditated act like this has a very low chance of the insanity plea succeeding.

By the way, I am 100% for the death penalty in theory, but in actual practice I find the judicial system too flawed to support it for most (but not all) cases.

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07-23-2012, 06:16 AM
  #197
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While there have been a lot of good arguments brought up against capital punishment in general, I don't think they apply well to the Aurora shooting. Here is a case where it is cut-and-dry who committed the murder, and while you could argue such a capital case would be burdened with a long-drawn case about the man's sanity, the fact is that a large scale premeditated act like this has a very low chance of the insanity plea succeeding.

By the way, I am 100% for the death penalty in theory, but in actual practice I find the judicial system too flawed to support it for most (but not all) cases.
I think it's pretty important aspect to consider that he for sure planned this for a long time and had a chance to call it off at any point. For example Hiltunen instead clearly just snapped, went to steal the guns and began shooting - it took all in all with "planning", what, an hour?

I think Holmes got already a death penalty. I'm pretty sure that inside the prison walls happens some "accident".

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07-23-2012, 08:43 AM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Jaymond Flurrie View Post
I think it's pretty important aspect to consider that he for sure planned this for a long time and had a chance to call it off at any point. For example Hiltunen instead clearly just snapped, went to steal the guns and began shooting - it took all in all with "planning", what, an hour?

I think Holmes got already a death penalty. I'm pretty sure that inside the prison walls happens some "accident".
Yea, I heard that if he wasn't in solitary confinement, he more than likely wouldn't be alive to see the trial today. This is coming from the mouths of security at the prison.

Also, I just read a quote from former Denver prosecutor Craig Silverman:

Quote:
"If James Holmes isn't executed, Colorado may as well throw away its death penalty law."
Pretty strong words and to be expected as well. I know people are against the death penalty, but if it isn't used as justice here, then it probably never will be.

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07-23-2012, 08:48 AM
  #199
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Originally Posted by MyersMagic57 View Post
This was a truly awful act to commit, but I don't agree with some of the statements saying he should be killed in front of a firing squad. Eye for Eye is not the answer and after taking a violence psychology class it is clear that this man was not right in the head. He hould be put away...in a mental institute. This is a clear case of a psuedo-commando mass murderer. Similar case was that of James Oliver Huberty when he went into a California McDonald and shot 20 people.

People who commit these acts snap and at that point there is nothing in their brain that will stop them from committing these acts
This goes beyond "snapping" IMO. It's been reported this was planned for months. Many opportunities in that time frame for him to come to his senses and stop the planning process.

So, that being said... I think we're dealing more with a person, when if given the chance, would do this all over again with no remorse. We might not be dealing with just some nut who snapped, but rather a cold blooded killer. There is a difference.

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07-23-2012, 08:48 AM
  #200
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Pretty strong words and to be expected as well. I know people are against the death penalty, but if it isn't used as justice here, then it probably never will be.
If Holmes isn't executed, then what does it take to get executed?

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