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07-23-2012, 08:54 AM
  #201
Jaymond Flurrie
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Originally Posted by iAvs View Post
This goes beyond "snapping" IMO. It's been reported this was planned for months.
Just to give some reasons why I agree with you
1) A student that has an apartment rigged with bombs? You don't do that overnight.
2) Getting all the equipment, even if you would have a direct access all the time to there, takes some time to acquire
3) Where did all that money come from? I have no idea what gun prices are in Colorado, but I think my assault rifle was valued at ~13 000 euros (that is, that's the price I would have needed to pay if I would have lost it) when I was in army. Did to full gear he had cost something like 100 000 USD? I understood that Holmes was unemployed and if so, how in earth did he get hands on that kind of money?

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07-23-2012, 08:54 AM
  #202
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If Holmes isn't executed, then what does it take to get executed?
Right, and it's a legit question. We just had the worst mass shooting in modern US history take place. If they don't slap the death penalty on he-who-shall-not-be-named, then when would it ever be used.

I'm not going to say what is right or wrong. Life in a cell can be just as punishing, if not more, than getting a quick execution. But, an eye-for-an-eye can help the victims involved find closure as well.

It'll be interesting to see what decision is made. Personally, I am going out on a limb and predicting he gets the death penalty. If he doesn't, there may be an uproar.

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07-23-2012, 08:58 AM
  #203
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Just to give some reasons why I agree with you
1) A student that has an apartment rigged with bombs? You don't do that overnight.
2) Getting all the equipment, even if you would have a direct access all the time to there, takes some time to acquire
3) Where did all that money come from? I have no idea what gun prices are in Colorado, but I think my assault rifle was valued at ~13 000 euros (that is, that's the price I would have needed to pay if I would have lost it) when I was in army. Did to full gear he had cost something like 100 000 USD? I understood that Holmes was unemployed and if so, how in earth did he get hands on that kind of money?
I have been wondering how he funded this "arsenal" as well. Not something a broke college student should be able to put together is a relatively short period of time.

Unless he was also saving every penny even MORE months prior to this just so he could buy everything. And there you can add another notch that this was planned even sooner than people think.

This guy isn't crazy. The facts are showing us that.

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07-23-2012, 09:00 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Jaymond Flurrie View Post
Just to give some reasons why I agree with you
1) A student that has an apartment rigged with bombs? You don't do that overnight.
2) Getting all the equipment, even if you would have a direct access all the time to there, takes some time to acquire
3) Where did all that money come from? I have no idea what gun prices are in Colorado, but I think my assault rifle was valued at ~13 000 euros (that is, that's the price I would have needed to pay if I would have lost it) when I was in army. Did to full gear he had cost something like 100 000 USD? I understood that Holmes was unemployed and if so, how in earth did he get hands on that kind of money?
Doctoral students get paid living stipends. The amount varies by institution, but in general, it's usually 75% of what a lab technician might make ($15-25k depending on city/location) which is a total crime in my opinion since grad students probably spend 60 hours a week in lab working for their PIs.

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07-23-2012, 10:38 AM
  #205
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Doctoral students get paid living stipends. The amount varies by institution, but in general, it's usually 75% of what a lab technician might make ($15-25k depending on city/location) which is a total crime in my opinion since grad students probably spend 60 hours a week in lab working for their PIs.
Counting from that, what's your best guess that how long he had to save money to finance the strike? Are we talking about several years?

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07-23-2012, 10:42 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Jaymond Flurrie View Post
Counting from that, what's your best guess that how long he had to save money to finance the strike? Are we talking about several years?
The guy probably had someone financing/supplying him. Doubt he was on his own in this thing.

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07-23-2012, 10:46 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Jaymond Flurrie View Post
Counting from that, what's your best guess that how long he had to save money to finance the strike? Are we talking about several years?
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Originally Posted by Adama0905 View Post
The guy probably had someone financing/supplying him. Doubt he was on his own in this thing.
Some combination of financing and credit cards is my guess.

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07-23-2012, 10:55 AM
  #208
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Yeah, at his court appearance just now he looked distant, sleepy, in withdrawl of some serious meds, or currently on some serious meds. Perhaps it was nothing more than disinterest as well. Hard to say, but he sure didn't look smug and amped up for his exposure.

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07-23-2012, 11:20 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Stories View Post
Some combination of financing and credit cards is my guess.
I find it interesting that he had a federal grant to study neuroscience.

He's obviously intelligent, but there's obviously something that was eating at him about humanity for quite some time.

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07-23-2012, 11:21 AM
  #210
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Yeah, at his court appearance just now he looked distant, sleepy, in withdrawl of some serious meds, or currently on some serious meds. Perhaps it was nothing more than disinterest as well. Hard to say, but he sure didn't look smug and amped up for his exposure.
I didn't see it, but I would understand if he would play it i.e. try to make everybody think he was insane. I might do it if I would be in his position.

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07-23-2012, 11:28 AM
  #211
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I don't know if any of you guys heard about the Aurora Red Robin or not. My husband works at a Red Robin a half hour away and apparently they had EIGHT employees shot and one dead (Alex Sullivan). His one year wedding anniversary was yesterday (he's also the one that was there celebrated his birthday). Can't stop thinking about how I would feel if my husband died 2 days before our first anniversary in two weeks. Heartbreaking.

Well, because they're so short staffed, my husband offered to go work down there yesterday. At first he was pissed they were open but after spending time with some of the people there he realized they needed the money and that they also wanted to be there to keep their minds off things. It was hard because waitresses would just randomly start crying and they have a lot of regulars that wouldn't be able to hold back tears. Just a really somber work environment.
One group of regulars that knew all the waiting staff thought only 1 person was shot. Confused about all the new people, my husband had to break the news of the 8 people shot (didn't have a heart to mention the death). Really sad.

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07-23-2012, 11:38 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Landeslog View Post
I don't know if any of you guys heard about the Aurora Red Robin or not. My husband works at a Red Robin a half hour away and apparently they had EIGHT employees shot and one dead (Alex Sullivan). His one year wedding anniversary was yesterday (he's also the one that was there celebrated his birthday). Can't stop thinking about how I would feel if my husband died 2 days before our first anniversary in two weeks. Heartbreaking.

Well, because they're so short staffed, my husband offered to go work down there yesterday. At first he was pissed they were open but after spending time with some of the people there he realized they needed the money and that they also wanted to be there to keep their minds off things. It was hard because waitresses would just randomly start crying and they have a lot of regulars that wouldn't be able to hold back tears. Just a really somber work environment.
One group of regulars that knew all the waiting staff thought only 1 person was shot. Confused about all the new people, my husband had to break the news of the 8 people shot (didn't have a heart to mention the death). Really sad.
I was exactly a week ago at a video store I visit daily (my sister works there every now and then) and one of the workers (the only one in the shift) got news that her friend committed a suicide and I backed her up there while waiting for the replacement to come. Some customers were kind of shocked that she was crying there and it was really hard for me too - try to keep someone together while really wanting to make her feel better. Luckily the manager arrived pretty soon so she was able to leave.

So I understand how your husband felt there. I appreciate that he was ready to help there.
-----------------------------------------------------
As weird as it might sound, I have actually been within a block from that cinema. Or so my wife told me - the first store I ever visited in USA, a Target, is just right cross the street from that cinema. (This was in December 2006, so it might have moved from there since that)

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07-23-2012, 11:47 AM
  #213
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I was exactly a week ago at a video store I visit daily (my sister works there every now and then) and one of the workers (the only one in the shift) got news that her friend committed a suicide and I backed her up there while waiting for the replacement to come. Some customers were kind of shocked that she was crying there and it was really hard for me too - try to keep someone together while really wanting to make her feel better. Luckily the manager arrived pretty soon so she was able to leave.

So I understand how your husband felt there. I appreciate that he was ready to help there.
-----------------------------------------------------
As weird as it might sound, I have actually been within a block from that cinema. Or so my wife told me - the first store I ever visited in USA, a Target, is just right cross the street from that cinema. (This was in December 2006, so it might have moved from there since that)
He ended up donating all his tips to a trust for the family of Alex Sullivan. The manager seemed surprised and he just said "I didn't take the shift for money I took it to help out" He's the best

Yeah, I'm in that area a lot for work. And my pastor would have been there if he hadn't moved a couple months ago. They went to all the big midnight premiers at that exact theater.

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07-23-2012, 11:49 AM
  #214
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He ended up donating all his tips to a trust for the family of Alex Sullivan. The manager seemed surprised and he just said "I didn't take the shift for money I took it to help out" He's the best

Yeah, I'm in that area a lot for work. And my pastor would have been there if he hadn't moved a couple months ago. They went to all the big midnight premiers at that exact theater.
While I didn't know Alex personally (to tell you the truth, had never even heard about him before this incident), I found out that he was a friend of my friend and that alone is enough to tell you to say thank you to your husband from "some random guy from Finland"!

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07-23-2012, 12:03 PM
  #215
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While I didn't know Alex personally (to tell you the truth, had never even heard about him before this incident), I found out that he was a friend of my friend and that alone is enough to tell you to say thank you to your husband from "some random guy from Finland"!
I'm sorry
Any little connection that makes it a little closer to home makes it even harder on a personal level.

This Red Robin thing is just really getting to me. Two weeks ago Casey went with 10ish Red Robin coworkers to a midnight showing. We would be devastated in this situation. Can't imagine what it's like to have 8 close friends shot in one night.

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07-23-2012, 12:29 PM
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I find it interesting that he had a federal grant to study neuroscience.

He's obviously intelligent, but there's obviously something that was eating at him about humanity for quite some time.
Most grad students are funded with federal grants. It's not a grant that must students receive directly, but through the principal investigator's (ie. professor) project grant (ie. specific project funds from NIH or NSF).

But you're right, anyone who is in a PhD program is (was?) obviously a bright and motivated individual. Most biological sciences PhD programs have ~10% acceptance rates, and the ones who end up at school are generally in the top of their classes.

Usually, grad students with grants they received directly will be smaller grants (<$10k) through the R03 mechanism (which has a $50k cap on it). This is for all NIH grants. Grad students don't have enough career traction or history to get grants that are much bigger (and they definitely won't receive the larger $500k+ R01 grants).

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07-23-2012, 02:40 PM
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Yeah, at his court appearance just now he looked distant, sleepy, in withdrawl of some serious meds, or currently on some serious meds. Perhaps it was nothing more than disinterest as well. Hard to say, but he sure didn't look smug and amped up for his exposure.
Well (so far as we know) it's not like he was like Breivik with his ******** crusade against multiculturalism.

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07-23-2012, 03:20 PM
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Right, and it's a legit question. We just had the worst mass shooting in modern US history take place. If they don't slap the death penalty on he-who-shall-not-be-named, then when would it ever be used.

I'm not going to say what is right or wrong. Life in a cell can be just as punishing, if not more, than getting a quick execution. But, an eye-for-an-eye can help the victims involved find closure as well.

It'll be interesting to see what decision is made. Personally, I am going out on a limb and predicting he gets the death penalty. If he doesn't, there may be an uproar.
Do you mean for injuries? I'm pretty sure there's been 5 or 6 in the last 20-30 years with more deaths in the US.

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07-23-2012, 09:02 PM
  #219
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The services for Jessica will be held at Community Bible Church in San Antonio on Saturday, July 28th at 10am. It will be open to the public
I hope some Avs attend if they are anywhere near San Antonio. Would be great for her and her family

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07-23-2012, 10:32 PM
  #220
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Not disagreeing with you, but look at their population.

Denmark is 111th in the world.
Iceland is 178th in the world.

America is 3rd.

When you have that MANY people then crime is going to elevated. Even with a no gun or limited gun policy he still would've killed people. Would have found another way to get guns. Only country this rule doesn't apply to is Japan, which has a obedient, respect your fellow neighbor life style. Definitely something that is rare in America nowadays.
I think there's a stat out there somewhere (and forgive me for not having the concrete details but I'm sure some google searching can help clarify) that says something like if you take 10-15 countries with gun control laws and add their populations together to get roughly the same population as the U.S. and compare the deaths attributed to guns in both, the difference is staggering. The US has something like 1000% more gun deaths than the combined populations of countries like Australia, England, and other Euro nations etc etc. Of course, this is because there are simply so many more guns in the US but it's also the culture that's been established around guns that leads to it.

I don't know why you wouldn't want some sort of control around guns to both make it more difficult for dangerous people to get them and increase the safety standards around gun use. So many deaths are because of accidents, in fact I believe it's the cause of the majority of gun deaths.

The US constitution says they have a right to bear arms, but that doesn't mean that it also shouldn't be an immense resposibility and previledge.

Someone mentioned how dangerous cars are, but you need to go through extensive training and tests before you're allowed to drive one, and you have to prove your identity to do so and keep it registered and keep your skills and licence up to date. It should be the same when you want to buy a gun and I see no reason why it shouldn't be. They are so dangerous! If you want a gun, register, do some safety and firing training, do a test, pass psych and background checks, get a gun. No one rushes cars into peoples hands, even though they are so essential to some peoples livelihoods. I see no reason why anyone would need a gun quickly without any hassel.

Who owns guns in America anyway, I can think of these people;

1. For Sport (shooting targets)
2. For Hunting
3. For Protection
4. To Committ Crimes.

The first two groups of people can wait, and are the people who learn how to use a gun properly in the first place. Protectionists can use that money they wanted to buy better locks or an alarm for their house, or just wait it out and do the tests to get a gun. I'm sure you'll be fine! The last group of people we don't want to have guns.

All that being said - I absolutely DO NOT believe that tighter gun controls prevents the Aurora shooting. I think if this guy either gets them from somewhere anyway or he can't get hands on guns he uses a bomb, or poisons or some other way to kill people. I do however think that there is a small amount of blame (and I use that word only for lack of a better one - it's not quite what I mean) that needs to be shared among a lot of organisations and people. Firstly, the gun laws and gun culture does play a part in fostering an atmosphere where a person like this can be created. But so does the media, and the way violence is potrayed (not just in the US but worldwide) the way it's become so desensitized. But I don't believe a change in either stops this from happening. It's also the parents, the way he was raised, the way his friends must have interacted with him, the way strangers did. The mental health services available or not available to him. The schools and universities he went to. The jobs he did. Somewhere along the line at each of these stations where everyone in their lives get influenced, he managed to pick out the wrong things, he managed to become so warped, and no one was able to steer him even slightly away from such a dark path.

While they each share some blame, they don't share it totally. Ultimately it comes down to the man himself. He had to make a decision. In the end you need to recognise what you're becoming and want to do something about it. He was old enough and educated enough to know better, to know something must have been wrong inside him. He couldn't have been happy. Everyone needs to make a choice, to decide to get help. And when they do they need to be the ones to make the changes. It's hard work but ultimately it can only be the individual who can do it, no one can change you, only you can. He made a choice. Rather than get help, rather than want to help himself, he chose a ridiculous path and for that reason I have no sympathy for him and never will. I'm against the death penalty but I couldn't fault a judge for imposing one in this case. There's no justification for the crime or the man, nor could their be any for the families. I'd be inclined to let them decide on the punishments and carry them all out, one after the other. Him sitting in a cell miserable, or being dead. Neither are enough. There's no wordly punishment that can satisfy me after such a crime.

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07-23-2012, 11:28 PM
  #221
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3) Where did all that money come from? I have no idea what gun prices are in Colorado, but I think my assault rifle was valued at ~13 000 euros (that is, that's the price I would have needed to pay if I would have lost it) when I was in army. Did to full gear he had cost something like 100 000 USD? I understood that Holmes was unemployed and if so, how in earth did he get hands on that kind of money?
I believe the assault rifle he used was a Smith & Wesson M&P15 which ranges from around $750 through $2,000 USD, so it's not a reach for a college student to purchase one. Especially considering how he plotted this out for a while, it's simple to put it on a credit card and not worry about the bill for months because he'll eventually be either A) in jail or B) dead. I'm not sure about the other weapons or tactical gear he purchased, but I'd gather he didn't spend much more than $5k, if that.

I'm a proponent of the right for civilians to own firearms, but I think there should be a license test of some sort to go along with the fingerprinting and background checks that are currently done. I don't know that it would help to change a situation such as the Aurora shooting, but it certainly couldn't hurt. I'm not sure about the process in Colorado, but here in New Jersey (probably the 2nd most difficult state in which to purchase a gun) the process really isn't very involving. Another step in that process wouldn't hurt anything, save for an inconvenience to applicants.

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07-24-2012, 07:52 AM
  #222
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I believe the assault rifle he used was a Smith & Wesson M&P15 which ranges from around $750 through $2,000 USD, so it's not a reach for a college student to purchase one. Especially considering how he plotted this out for a while, it's simple to put it on a credit card and not worry about the bill for months because he'll eventually be either A) in jail or B) dead. I'm not sure about the other weapons or tactical gear he purchased, but I'd gather he didn't spend much more than $5k, if that.

I'm a proponent of the right for civilians to own firearms, but I think there should be a license test of some sort to go along with the fingerprinting and background checks that are currently done. I don't know that it would help to change a situation such as the Aurora shooting, but it certainly couldn't hurt. I'm not sure about the process in Colorado, but here in New Jersey (probably the 2nd most difficult state in which to purchase a gun) the process really isn't very involving. Another step in that process wouldn't hurt anything, save for an inconvenience to applicants.
Ok, then the financial part wasn't as impossible as I thought.

People who drive cars have to go thru pretty extensive checks at least here (all tests and then you have to have driver's license with you all the time and so on). Do they have a driver's license for guns in USA? I really think they should. It's ok if it costs quite a lot, if you need the gun, you can afford it.

The problem is that Hiltunen (who I seem to bring up constantly) stole totally legal weapons before committing his "personal solution". How do you prevent them? By just locking places more carefully?

Like said earlier, these restrictions usually applies anyway to only those who don't really care about laws anyway. You want to kill 12 people, I'm sure you'll find a way.

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07-24-2012, 08:07 AM
  #223
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I think there's a stat out there somewhere (and forgive me for not having the concrete details but I'm sure some google searching can help clarify) that says something like if you take 10-15 countries with gun control laws and add their populations together to get roughly the same population as the U.S. and compare the deaths attributed to guns in both, the difference is staggering. The US has something like 1000% more gun deaths than the combined populations of countries like Australia, England, and other Euro nations etc etc. Of course, this is because there are simply so many more guns in the US but it's also the culture that's been established around guns that leads to it.
There's a post by a columnist (Ezra Klein) in the Washington Post today about a few academic papers that have been published in this area that are quite interesting:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...d-gun-control/

The first post is gun death rate, which is adjusted for population number. What percentage is due to accidental firing of firearms versus directed use are not specified, but interesting, nonetheless.

The biggest thing these figures demonstrate, though, is that these are not causal (guns =/= deaths). There are definitely other factors here, but the numbers themselves are something to think about.

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Ok, then the financial part wasn't as impossible as I thought.

People who drive cars have to go thru pretty extensive checks at least here (all tests and then you have to have driver's license with you all the time and so on). Do they have a driver's license for guns in USA? I really think they should. It's ok if it costs quite a lot, if you need the gun, you can afford it.

The problem is that Hiltunen (who I seem to bring up constantly) stole totally legal weapons before committing his "personal solution". How do you prevent them? By just locking places more carefully?

Like said earlier, these restrictions usually applies anyway to only those who don't really care about laws anyway. You want to kill 12 people, I'm sure you'll find a way.
It's also very easy to get a driver's license here. Really simple, actually. Sometimes I feel like we give away licenses to people who shouldn't have them. Same could probably be said about guns (though I know nothing about them).

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07-24-2012, 08:47 AM
  #224
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The US constitution says they have a right to bear arms, but that doesn't mean that it also shouldn't be an immense resposibility and privilege.
That is the biggest problem with the Constitution as written, it enumerates rights, but they left out the word responsibility. With the right to bear arms comes responsibility. With the services the government provides comes the responsibility of paying for them. People want rights without responsibility, like a bunch of 4 year olds.

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07-24-2012, 09:13 AM
  #225
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