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BREAKING: Travis Snider traded to Pittsburgh for SP Brad Lincoln

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Old
07-24-2012, 02:11 PM
  #251
Woodman19
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As both Danny Knobler and Jon Heyman have mentioned, the White Sox are interested in Zack Greinke.

The White Sox, however, have a weak farm system, and may not have the pieces needed to acquire him. Because of that, Morosi and Rosenthal suggest the White Sox may need to involve another team in order to get Greinke in a trade.

Gavin Floyd could be involved in a potential deal. The White Sox are “eager” to move him.

The Blue Jays have scouted Floyd recently, and the White Sox have been scouting Justin Nicolino, one of the Jays pitching prospects.
This one seems to have some merit.

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07-24-2012, 02:12 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Prophet of Glennie View Post
Encarnacion is the Jays MVP this season but among the casual fans, the four he mentioned are way more popular. JPA is always talking with fans, always at public events, he loves being with fans. D'Arnaud doesn't seem like that kind of guy.

It seems like it's only here and on other baseball forums that JPA isn't popular.

Regardless of what you feel about Arencibia, he's definitely a fan favourite and to a casual fan (So the vast majority of Jays fans), you could say Arencibia is the face of the franchise.
Point is, being a popular "Fan Favourite" has no bearing towards whether you move a player or not. Johnny Mac was a fan favourite and he was swapped with no hesitation. Arencibia is just holding down the fort until D'Arnaud is ready, its what we have been saying for a year now. Love him all you want but be prepared to be a fan of him elsewhere this time next year.

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07-24-2012, 02:14 PM
  #253
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I makes perfect sense as evidence to support the claim that JP is a face of the franchise, which is the claim that was being challenged.
So twitter followers are the benchmark for being qualified as a "face of the the franchise"? Gotchya. I have different requirements personally. Like being good at baseball.


Last edited by Everlong: 07-24-2012 at 02:19 PM.
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07-24-2012, 02:14 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by ryno23 View Post
I could see AA flip Escobar instead to OAK and keep Ramirez at SS.
I can't see AA trading for Hanley to keep him. He just doesn't fit anywhere on this team unless they think he could play LF.

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Originally Posted by KlattNazty View Post
do you guys view Darnaud as the long term guy or JPA?
d'Arnaud.

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Originally Posted by ryno23 View Post
Maybe he gets shifted to 2B and is less of a liability. His bat is what teams are taking a chance on not his D. Who would you rather have at 2b Ramirez and his bat or KJ and is better glove but terrible bat.
Hanley at 2nd base doesn't make much sense. He is just way too big for the position and I'm not sure if he could turn the double play well. I guess it might depend on how much offense he can give you. If he can turn back into that .900+ OPS MVP type hitter, then you don't care about his defense at all but the last time we had an year like that was 2009. 2010 season was pretty good too though.

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Originally Posted by HockeyGuruPitka View Post
JP is going no where. Hes already one of the better hitting catchers in the league. Hes become a face of our franchise, unless D'arnaud actually blows us out of the water JP's job is safe.
Please. Can please stop saying this when it's not true. And he isn't a face of our franchise either.

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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
Perhaps acquire Hanley and then flip him to Arizona for Upton (more pieces obviously involved). Then we get to keep Hechevarria and have the ammo to move Escobar too while upgrading our offence at the same time.
I would totally do this. I'm not sure if DBacks do but he could make sense for them at SS or 3rd base. You buy low on an elite player too. We would have to add in a little bit more but if DBacks are interested in Hanley, that could get it done.

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Originally Posted by Dark Knight View Post
I think Josh Johnson would be a great acquisition for this team.
Me too. I want him a heck a lot more than Hanley.

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Originally Posted by HockeyGuruPitka View Post
How is he not? All of their marketing campaigns are structured around Lawrie, Bautista , Romero and Arencebia. The fans have rallied around them. The blue jays would lose a lot of fan support if they traded him away. The ladies love this guy.

Check out the twitter following of the Blue Jays.

Jose Bautista = 250.8k
Brett Lawrie = 151.3k
Ricky Romero = 114.6k
J.P arencebia = 107.6k



compared to

Omar Vizquel = 83k
Brendan Morrow = 51.6k
Kyle Drabek - 31.3l
Casey Jansen - 23.3k
Using twitter followers to say JPA is one of the faces of our franchise. Jesus Christ.

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Originally Posted by ryno23 View Post
Crazy far fetched trade but....

Hanley Ramirez
Josh Johnson

for

Adam Lind (better than Gaby Sanchez)
Moises Sierra ( could step in right now to play)
Deck McGuire(another rotation piece in the 3-5 slot
mid level prospect or one of the big 3 at Lansind (just to sweeten the pot)


The Marlins get 3 players that come in and contribute right away. Ramirez or Escobar would shift over to 2b and yeah it may not be gold glove caliber D but the offense of Ramirez will make up for any D flaw. You would have to trade Johnson but there are teams needing a 2B and he could get some value back in return.

Rotation going into next year would be pretty sweet.

Morrow
Romero
Johnson
Alvarez
JA Happ
That's such an insanely laughable proposal. Those guys are elite players or at least have been and you're talking about giving up a guy that was on waivers earlier this season, Sierra who is some C+ prospect and probably a bench bat and a pitcher that is getting destroyed in AA and his ceiling seems to be a bottom end starter.

For those two together, you're probably looking at more along the lines of Syndergaard/Sanchez + Gose/Marisnick + Snider + another good prospect.

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07-24-2012, 02:16 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
This one seems to have some merit.
Ugh no. Floyd who has had a 4+ ERA the past 4 seasons for a very solid prospect in Nicolino? No thanks. He's got just another year left on his deal after this season before he becomes a FA. I'll pass. If it's a lower prospect than that, I might consider it.

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07-24-2012, 02:19 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Nasty Nazem View Post
Ugh no. Floyd who has had a 4+ ERA the past 4 seasons for a very solid prospect in Nicolino? No thanks. He's got just another year left on his deal after this season before he becomes a FA. I'll pass. If it's a lower prospect than that, I might consider it.
Who knows maybe we get a pen arm out of the deal too, either way the basis of the deal is getting someone who is on pace to pitch 185+ Innings for his 5th consecutive year with 1 more year of control for the least upside of the "big 3" I think Chicago would have to include a pen arm for us too though.

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07-24-2012, 02:20 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
Point is, being a popular "Fan Favourite" has no bearing towards whether you move a player or not. Johnny Mac was a fan favourite and he was swapped with no hesitation. Arencibia is just holding down the fort until D'Arnaud is ready, its what we have been saying for a year now. Love him all you want but be prepared to be a fan of him elsewhere this time next year.
No it doesn't but JPA won't be casually moved like McDonald was. If a good deal arises they won't hesitate but if a team asks for JPA as a throw-in, even if the Jays don't think it's bad value, you have to think about the consequences of moving one of the casual fans most loved players unless you're getting a really good deal.

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07-24-2012, 02:22 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Prophet of Glennie View Post
No it doesn't but JPA won't be casually moved like McDonald was. If a good deal arises they won't hesitate but if a team asks for JPA as a throw-in, even if the Jays don't think it's bad value, you have to think about the consequences of moving one of the casual fans most loved players unless you're getting a really good deal.
The Jays are also smart enough to realize if D'Arnaud is starting then JPA is sitting on the bench, which doesnt help his trade value. As soon as D'Arnaud is ready to play every day JPA will be moved while he has his highest value to shore up another weakness in the team, thats Asset management 101.

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07-24-2012, 02:32 PM
  #259
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Jon Morosi ‏@jonmorosi
#BlueJays interested in both Josh Johnson and Hanley Ramirez. Source says they have stronger desire to land JJ because of pitching need.

Kinda obvious but yeah, there it is. Really really really want JJ.

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07-24-2012, 02:35 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Nasty Nazem View Post
Jon Morosi ‏@jonmorosi
#BlueJays interested in both Josh Johnson and Hanley Ramirez. Source says they have stronger desire to land JJ because of pitching need.

Kinda obvious but yeah, there it is. Really really really want JJ.
I see one or the other, not both. Either way, the player potentially acquired will help upgrade our starting rotation.

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07-24-2012, 02:37 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuruPitka View Post
How is he not? All of their marketing campaigns are structured around Lawrie, Bautista , Romero and Arencebia. The fans have rallied around them. The blue jays would lose a lot of fan support if they traded him away. The ladies love this guy.

Check out the twitter following of the Blue Jays.

Jose Bautista = 250.8k
Brett Lawrie = 151.3k
Ricky Romero = 114.6k
J.P arencebia = 107.6k



compared to

Omar Vizquel = 83k
Brendan Morrow = 51.6k
Kyle Drabek - 31.3l
Casey Jansen - 23.3k
You are joking, right?

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07-24-2012, 02:38 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
The Jays are also smart enough to realize if D'Arnaud is starting then JPA is sitting on the bench, which doesnt help his trade value. As soon as D'Arnaud is ready to play every day JPA will be moved while he has his highest value to shore up another weakness in the team, thats Asset management 101.
And as I said before, I really think it's going to be a mistake if he goes cheap. Every 4 or 5 weeks or so he goes on a tear for a a dozen games or so where he sees the ball very well and is on every pitch.

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07-24-2012, 02:41 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Tootoo Train View Post
I see one or the other, not both. Either way, the player potentially acquired will help upgrade our starting rotation.
I have a gut feeling we are going to get JJ. He is the first true workhorse top of the rotation guy more then the 1 season of control to come availible sinec we have been in a position to acquire one. He would instantly transform our rotation to become a serious playoff contender by simply bumping everyone back 1 spot.

Johnson
Romero
Morrow
Alvarez/Haap/Laffey/Cecil

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07-24-2012, 02:44 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Prophet of Glennie View Post
Encarnacion is the Jays MVP this season but among the casual fans, the four he mentioned are way more popular. JPA is always talking with fans, always at public events, he loves being with fans. D'Arnaud doesn't seem like that kind of guy.

It seems like it's only here and on other baseball forums that JPA isn't popular.

Regardless of what you feel about Arencibia, he's definitely a fan favourite and to a casual fan (So the vast majority of Jays fans), you could say Arencibia is the face of the franchise.
Do you know where the Jays would be if a casual fan was running the show? Butt-****-nowhere.

Casual fans don't give a flying **** as long as the team is winning. The better the product, the better the chance it has of selling. J.P. may be a fan favourite right now, but none of the casual fans are going to remember him when d'Arnaud comes up and proves he is the better baseball player.

Jonny Mac was a fan favourite. That doesn't mean he deserved to be starting everyday.

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07-24-2012, 02:50 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
I have a gut feeling we are going to get JJ. He is the first true workhorse top of the rotation guy more then the 1 season of control to come availible sinec we have been in a position to acquire one. He would instantly transform our rotation to become a serious playoff contender by simply bumping everyone back 1 spot.

Johnson
Romero
Morrow
Alvarez/Haap/Laffey/Cecil
Not to mention Alvarez/CV are our only right handed pitchers in the rotation right now. That's a little scary. I know what you mean. The wake created by a deal of this caliber could go a long way. Hell the team looked energized after a few measly bullpen additions.

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07-24-2012, 02:50 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
This one seems to have some merit.
I sure as hell hope it doesn't have merit.

I would not be okay with this trade.

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07-24-2012, 02:54 PM
  #267
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I'd imagine a HanRam and JJ package would cost four good prospects, and two at least who'd be A-list guys, since each player guarantees that return if they reach FA. There's some value in taking on alot of money from a team that's shedding it, especially HanRam given his baggage and decreasing production.

And if the package was exclusively prospects, then there's an extra SS around (two technically) to be moved for more pitching.

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07-24-2012, 02:56 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by aingefan View Post
I'd imagine a HanRam and JJ package would cost four good prospects, and two at least who'd be A-list guys, since each player guarantees that return if they reach FA. There's some value in taking on alot of money from a team that's shedding it, especially HanRam given his baggage and decreasing production.

And if the package was exclusively prospects, then there's an extra SS around (two technically) to be moved for more pitching.
I've said it 100 times, and I'll say it 100 more.

The Jays better not be acquiring Ramirez to have him play shortstop. He's simply terrible defensively at shortstop.

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07-24-2012, 02:57 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
This one seems to have some merit.
So following ninja logic, we are targetting Gavin Floyd, Zack Greinke (less so) and Josh Johnson.

If we are helping to get Greinke, expect Chicago to have to add to Floyd.

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07-24-2012, 02:58 PM
  #270
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Do you know where the Jays would be if a casual fan was running the show? Butt-****-nowhere.

Casual fans don't give a flying **** as long as the team is winning. The better the product, the better the chance it has of selling. J.P. may be a fan favourite right now, but none of the casual fans are going to remember him when d'Arnaud comes up and proves he is the better baseball player.

Jonny Mac was a fan favourite. That doesn't mean he deserved to be starting everyday.
Where did I ever say they should listen to the casual fans? They shouldn't listen to fans period, casual or hardcore. Fans don't work in the buisness, even you so called serious fans would run the team into the ground if you had control.

And yes, casual fans do "give a flying ****" if their favourite player is traded. Do you even pay attention to sports? Watch when a fan favourite gets traded, people remember, they won't forget. Doesn't matter what sport, you trade a fan favourite, the fans are mad, they will remember, even if the team isn't winning. The moment D'Arnaud starts struggling, JPA would be remembered.

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07-24-2012, 02:59 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by 91Kadri91 View Post

Jonny Mac was a fan favourite. That doesn't mean he deserved to be starting everyday.
No one said that. They are saying it would be harder to deal him because he is a fan favourite. Meaning if d'arnaud comes up and doesn't shine, why move JP when the fans love him as well as being as good as d'arnaud. I find it funny that all you Sabre metrics folks all went crazy when the twitter followers were posted. I thought you guys liked numbers to back up what's being said? or is it just the ones that suit your argument?

I don't know who said it since Im on my phone but how else would you measure a face of a franchise? Like it or not twitter is a big part of this generation for now and twitter followers certainly show who's more popular, meaning fan favourite. Why doesn't eddy have a higher following? Because he's not as marketable as JP.

Bringing a leafs comparable into this, Tie domi was a face of the franchise along with Darcy tucker and mats sundin. Kaberle was great but was never a fan favourite. You guys just have such a hate on for JP that you can't get over it

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07-24-2012, 03:02 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by Prophet of Glennie View Post
And as I said before, I really think it's going to be a mistake if he goes cheap. Every 4 or 5 weeks or so he goes on a tear for a a dozen games or so where he sees the ball very well and is on every pitch.
i'm sure AA will get the best possible value for him, he is still a young catcher that has raw power. he can sell teams on that and insist JPA can improve his approach at the plate with the right team/hitting coach.

any player can be traded, even jose, so people need to stop stating AA won't trade JPA because darnaud isn't ready yet or that we don't have a decent option behind the plate. hell if mathis can keep hitting .250 i'd take him over JPA because of his catching/game calling ability.

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07-24-2012, 03:04 PM
  #273
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Who knows maybe we get a pen arm out of the deal too, either way the basis of the deal is getting someone who is on pace to pitch 185+ Innings for his 5th consecutive year with 1 more year of control for the least upside of the "big 3" I think Chicago would have to include a pen arm for us too though.
Screw dealing with Chicago and Kenny the crook Williams! Move on.

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07-24-2012, 03:09 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by Prophet of Glennie View Post
Where did I ever say they should listen to the casual fans? They shouldn't listen to fans period, casual or hardcore.

And yes, casual fans do "give a flying ****" if their favourite player is traded. Do you even pay attention to sports? Watch when a fan favourite gets traded, people remember, they won't forget. Doesn't matter what sport, you trade a fan favourite, the fans are mad, they will remember, even if the team isn't winning. The moment D'Arnaud starts struggling, JPA would be remembered.
Continue with the insults buddy. It makes you seem intelligent and knowledgeable.

Yes, the fans will remember the fan favourites, but they won't stop watching the team. That's what this is all about. Sports is one of the most lucrative businesses in the world. You want more fans to come watch and support the team? Start winning.

There is no greater marketing tool in pro sports than success. If you're successful, the fans will come. It's that simple. Who gives the Jays a greater chance of winning? By all means, it appears that it will be d'Arnaud in the future. I don't advocate trading J.P. right now, but if d'Arnaud plays at the major-league level like most expect him to, then that would push J.P. to the bench. Why have J.P. sit on the bench when you can trade him to fill another need? That seems like poor asset management to me.

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07-24-2012, 03:12 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Drop The Mits View Post
No one said that. They are saying it would be harder to deal him because he is a fan favourite. Meaning if d'arnaud comes up and doesn't shine, why move JP when the fans love him as well as being as good as d'arnaud. I find it funny that all you Sabre metrics folks all went crazy when the twitter followers were posted. I thought you guys liked numbers to back up what's being said? or is it just the ones that suit your argument?

I don't know who said it since Im on my phone but how else would you measure a face of a franchise? Like it or not twitter is a big part of this generation for now and twitter followers certainly show who's more popular, meaning fan favourite. Why doesn't eddy have a higher following? Because he's not as marketable as JP.

Bringing a leafs comparable into this, Tie domi was a face of the franchise along with Darcy tucker and mats sundin. Kaberle was great but was never a fan favourite. You guys just have such a hate on for JP that you can't get over it
I'm about as traditional as they come. Alot of guys on this forum know that. This has nothing to do with Sabre-stats. Now you're just taking shots for the sake of taking shots. Very appealing. Who's to say that his followers even watch baseball that often. Maybe they just like his face, or his interesting tweets. Doesn't mean they all pay the piper and go to ballgames, or buy merchandise.

As for your comment regarding the leafs. One of these things is not like the other. Sundin was the face of the franchise...tucker? kaberle? Not so much. There would certainly be a minor fan backlash if Kaberle or Tucker were traded while they were in their prime. I sincerely doubt that would be the case for JP where the Jays aren't scrutinized the same way the Leafs are.

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