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Old
07-24-2012, 05:10 PM
  #301
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Can we just all agree that JP does absolutely nothing in terms of "bringing fans out to games?" I don't feel like going through it but I highly doubt there is an attendance decline when Jeff Mathis is catching, likely because no one gives a crap.

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07-24-2012, 05:14 PM
  #302
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Can we just all agree that JP does absolutely nothing in terms of "bringing fans out to games?" I don't feel like going through it but I highly doubt there is an attendance decline when Jeff Mathis is catching, likely because no one gives a crap.
Bingo.

And even if there is, it's because it's one of those akward day after a night game type things where attendance drops anyway and the bench plays.

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07-24-2012, 05:14 PM
  #303
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Can we just all agree that JP does absolutely nothing in terms of "bringing fans out to games?" I don't feel like going through it but I highly doubt there is an attendance decline when Jeff Mathis is catching, likely because no one gives a crap.
I agree, but I think you'll find a fair share of people who will respond to this who don't agree.

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07-24-2012, 05:26 PM
  #304
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What's the word coming out of Toronto regarding deadline deals? Coverage of the Jays out here isn't as great as I'd like it to be. I read rumors that
the Jays were looking at Hanley Ramirez??

With the second wild card spot, I think the Jays really have a good chance at taking a run at the playoffs. Definitely have the talent.

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07-24-2012, 05:31 PM
  #305
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So twitter followers are the benchmark for being qualified as a "face of the the franchise"? Gotchya. I have different requirements personally. Like being good at baseball.
You're mixed up about what "face of the franchise means." Your personal requirements have nothing to do with it.

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07-24-2012, 05:36 PM
  #306
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There's a huge difference between role players (Wade Belak for Toronto, John McDonald for the Jays)and a young starting catcher who is a major part of a teams marketing and if you polled fans would likely be the third most favourite Jay.

The last few years, before Bautista, Romero, JPA and Lawrie, the only guys the Jays had that really did stuff for fans and the media was Wells. Halladay did a tonne of charity work but he was a quiet guy and was mostly a fan favourite because he was the best pitcher in baseball. I definitely think having a young vibrant team that loves to be with the fans has put people in seats, JPA a big part of that.

If the team is winning every year they don't need this but untill the Jays get to that point, they need guys like JPA.
Whatever man. You talk about me missing the point and completely miss my point. BTW i never once mentioned Johnny Mac. I guess you put more value in the discount rent a car spokesman than I do. I don't think he's a bad player. I've said it's good for the team that they have someone like him to get involved with fans. Where we differ is the face of the franchise stuff. If the jays decide to move JP this is still a young vibrant team.

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07-24-2012, 05:37 PM
  #307
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You're mixed up about what "face of the franchise means." Your personal requirements have nothing to do with it.
I would say your the one that's confused

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07-24-2012, 05:57 PM
  #308
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What's the word coming out of Toronto regarding deadline deals? Coverage of the Jays out here isn't as great as I'd like it to be. I read rumors that
the Jays were looking at Hanley Ramirez??

With the second wild card spot, I think the Jays really have a good chance at taking a run at the playoffs. Definitely have the talent.

If you have Prime Time Sports w/ Bob McCown, Joe Morsi (and Alan Ashby) is coming on to discuss Blue Jays rumours. (Including the Hanley Ramirez one.)

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07-24-2012, 06:22 PM
  #309
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You want to know what is more marketable the J.P? Wins, the playoffs, a championship.

Fan favourites are important for mediocre and rebuilding teams, as it gives them a way to market something to the fans. Trading J.P. right now isn't smart because we don't know for sure what d'Arnaud is yet, but if things turn out like I hope, d'Arnaud will be a far better catcher. That would mean greater successes for the Jays, and a far better marketing tool.

Besides, it's not like the Jays won't have other fan favourites to market if they trade Arencibia. Going off of twitter numbers (which is completely ridiculous), he's the fourth most popular Blue Jay. That doesn't exactly make him untouchable.
We're not talking about winning and success right now, we're talking face of the franchise. You guys are all talking about the "potential" of d'Arnaud, when right now he is a catcher that had his season ended by a knee injury, if I recall correctly. How is JP not a face of a franchise? The numbers are there (whether you like it or not) and there is no other feasible option for the position right now. If d'Arnaud fails, is JP then a face of the franchise to you? Or because he's not statistically perfect then he isn't? How else would you measure a face of a franchise? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the twitter numbers could be correlated to the "general population". I'm sure there are plenty of hard core fans on twitter just as there are fair weather fans who show up to the games. You guys want to generalize twitter users as "teenage girls" but in fact it's not.

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Encarnacion struggles to speak english. So it doesn't make much sense to have him out doing public appearances. There are many more valuable players to this team than JP. JP is a social guy but that hardly makes him the face of the franchise. Because teenage girls think he's good looking doesn't make him any more important to the team. Sorry.
Who cares who is the "most valuable" to the team? You're struggling to grasp the concept of "face of the franchise". It's a player that fans recognize, and associate with the team. What's with the teenage girl remark? That has nothing to do with it...

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You used EE as an example. I responded to your example. Yes the casual fan loves JP. The casual fan also loved Wade Belak because he'd go onto 102.1 the edge and was a really funny guy. It didn't hurt the leafs when he was traded just like it won't hurt the jays if and when JP is traded. IMO where the face of the franchise is important is on the field and I can tell you JP is not in that top 3. Sorry if I just don't see JP being the reason why casual fans are going to games. As for your Morrow argument. Some guys aren't big on being in the public eye all the time. Why do you think they don't have Colby Rasmus out doing this stuff? Not everyone is a conversationalist or comfortable talking to strangers. It's great that JP loves it and of course it's great for the fans. It's never bad having a guy that enjoys doing that kind of stuff. But you don't keep a chatty guy on your team if he can be moved to improve the team just because he likes talking to fans.
First off, you're comparing a fourth line fighter to the starting back catcher. A better example would be Tie Domi, or Darcy Tucker. Both were faces of the franchise without being the "star" on the team. Why is that? Because teams could relate with these players and recognized these players. Tie Domi got a ****ing press conference when he retired, and there was a back lash when Tucker was bought out. You're failing to grasp the concept of "face of the franchise", again. No body is saying he can't be moved, but he is great for the team for the time being until someone can PROVE otherwise. Not just Ken Rosenthal saying that d'Arnaud could step in an MLB line up today. The fans love him, so unless there's another option that is better than him to be traded for, or d'Arnaud comes in and plays way better than him, he's not going to be moved.

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I would say your the one that's confused
Nope that's you bud

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Old
07-24-2012, 06:35 PM
  #310
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5:24pm: The Marlins told teams they would trade only one of Johnson or Sanchez, so it would take a "blowaway" offer to land Johnson as of now, reports Peter Gammons of MLB Network (on Twitter).
Damn

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07-24-2012, 06:38 PM
  #311
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Damn
Of course they are going to say that, they have no leverage now that everyone knows they are doing a fire sale. Do you think they want to hold onto that contract when they could instead give Loria all that money?

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07-24-2012, 06:41 PM
  #312
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We're not talking about winning and success right now, we're talking face of the franchise. You guys are all talking about the "potential" of d'Arnaud, when right now he is a catcher that had his season ended by a knee injury, if I recall correctly. How is JP not a face of a franchise? The numbers are there (whether you like it or not) and there is no other feasible option for the position right now. If d'Arnaud fails, is JP then a face of the franchise to you? Or because he's not statistically perfect then he isn't? How else would you measure a face of a franchise? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the twitter numbers could be correlated to the "general population". I'm sure there are plenty of hard core fans on twitter just as there are fair weather fans who show up to the games. You guys want to generalize twitter users as "teenage girls" but in fact it's not.



Who cares who is the "most valuable" to the team? You're struggling to grasp the concept of "face of the franchise". It's a player that fans recognize, and associate with the team. What's with the teenage girl remark? That has nothing to do with it...



First off, you're comparing a fourth line fighter to the starting back catcher. A better example would be Tie Domi, or Darcy Tucker. Both were faces of the franchise without being the "star" on the team. Why is that? Because teams could relate with these players and recognized these players. Tie Domi got a ****ing press conference when he retired, and there was a back lash when Tucker was bought out. You're failing to grasp the concept of "face of the franchise", again. No body is saying he can't be moved, but he is great for the team for the time being until someone can PROVE otherwise. Not just Ken Rosenthal saying that d'Arnaud could step in an MLB line up today. The fans love him, so unless there's another option that is better than him to be traded for, or d'Arnaud comes in and plays way better than him, he's not going to be moved.



Nope that's you bud
Prove to me that Arencibia is a top-5 catcher in the MLB. Hell, prove to me that he's a top-10 catcher in the MLB.

I guar-a-****ing-tee you can't. It's not possible, because he's not. He's not a face of the franchise production wise. Saying as much shows you have no ****ing idea what you're talking about. It's completely ****ing ridiculous. Unless you're referring to his twitter followers, in which case everyone has already went through that.

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Old
07-24-2012, 06:44 PM
  #313
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I'm pretty sure there was a quote in Moneyball that said something like "Lose with fan favorites and they become bums. Win with nobodies and they become fan favorites."

and FWIW, the numbers are not there for JP. He hits home runs, and he gets RBIs which is largely a factor of the talent ahead of him getting on base when he hits those home runs. He's still a godawful hitter, power aside. The thing is that it just doesn't look as bad as it really is because most catchers suck offensively.

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07-24-2012, 06:45 PM
  #314
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Fact. Brandon morrow still leads the entire MLB in shutouts. Still.
damn i hope he returns.

I have been keeping a silent watch on the team but if we acquire josh johnson...ill end up buying a jersey.

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07-24-2012, 06:46 PM
  #315
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I'm pretty sure there was a quote in Moneyball that said something like "Lose with fan favorites and they become bums. Win with nobodies and they become fan favorites."
an excellent quoite at that

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07-24-2012, 06:48 PM
  #316
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I'm pretty sure there was a quote in Moneyball that said something like "Lose with fan favorites and they become bums. Win with nobodies and they become fan favorites."

and FWIW, the numbers are not there for JP. He hits home runs, and he gets RBIs which is largely a factor of the talent ahead of him getting on base when he hits those home runs. He's still a godawful hitter, power aside. The thing is that it just doesn't look as bad as it really is because most catchers suck offensively.
This.

No more needs to be said.

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07-24-2012, 06:53 PM
  #317
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damn i hope he returns.

I have been keeping a silent watch on the team but if we acquire josh johnson...ill end up buying a jersey.
Boy if JJ comes here I'll definitely have to get a jersey too.

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07-24-2012, 06:54 PM
  #318
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Lets say that esco goes to the A's, and we get hanram and JJ for prospects not on the mlb roster.


How does moving lawrie to 2nd, and moving esco up to play SS? Lawrie has played extremely good defense and has shown remarkable range and athleticism. This lets us keep Hanram at 3rd.

Lawrie-Rasmus-Jbat-EE-Hanram-Snider-lind-JPA-hech

Thats pretty solid lineup. Hech is the only blackhole batting wise but his ++ defense at SS more then makes up for it.

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07-24-2012, 06:55 PM
  #319
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Prove to me that Arencibia is a top-5 catcher in the MLB. Hell, prove to me that he's a top-10 catcher in the MLB.

I guar-a-****ing-tee you can't. It's not possible, because he's not. He's not a face of the franchise production wise. Saying as much shows you have no ****ing idea what you're talking about. It's completely ****ing ridiculous. Unless you're referring to his twitter followers, in which case everyone has already went through that.
When did I ever say he was a top 10 catcher in the league, spaz? I'm referring to the fact that he's in commercials, I'm pretty sure on banners outside the Rogers Centre, and is constantly being interviewed and has segments on Sportsnet. Ricky Romero is a face of the blue jays. Is Ricky Romero a top 10-15 pitcher in the league? Nope. So where's the argument there...? Tie Domi was a face of the Leafs franchise. Was he a star? Nope. He had a press conference when he retired. That is a face right there.

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07-24-2012, 06:55 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
I'm pretty sure there was a quote in Moneyball that said something like "Lose with fan favorites and they become bums. Win with nobodies and they become fan favorites."

and FWIW, the numbers are not there for JP. He hits home runs, and he gets RBIs which is largely a factor of the talent ahead of him getting on base when he hits those home runs. He's still a godawful hitter, power aside. The thing is that it just doesn't look as bad as it really is because most catchers suck offensively.
"Win with nobodies and the fans showed up, and the nobodies became stars; lose with stars and the fans stayed home, and the stars became nobodies."

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07-24-2012, 06:57 PM
  #321
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"Win with nobodies and the fans showed up, and the nobodies became stars; lose with stars and the fans stayed home, and the stars became nobodies."
There we go. I was just too lazy to figure out where I left my book.

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07-24-2012, 06:59 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by Paladin2799 View Post
Lets say that esco goes to the A's, and we get hanram and JJ for prospects not on the mlb roster.


How does moving lawrie to 2nd, and moving esco up to play SS? Lawrie has played extremely good defense and has shown remarkable range and athleticism. This lets us keep Hanram at 3rd.

Lawrie-Rasmus-Jbat-EE-Hanram-Snider-lind-JPA-hech

Thats pretty solid lineup. Hech is the only blackhole batting wise but his ++ defense at SS more then makes up for it.
Ramirez doesn't want to play 3rd. He shouldn't be playing 3rd. The only reason he is is because the Marlins spent truckloads of money on Jose Reyes. If the Jays acquire Ramirez, he'd be playing shortstop, and Escobar would be gone or be moved to 2nd (and Johnson would be gone)

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07-24-2012, 06:59 PM
  #323
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When did I ever say he was a top 10 catcher in the league, spaz? I'm referring to the fact that he's in commercials, I'm pretty sure on banners outside the Rogers Centre, and is constantly being interviewed and has segments on Sportsnet. Ricky Romero is a face of the blue jays. Is Ricky Romero a top 10-15 pitcher in the league? Nope. So where's the argument there...? Tie Domi was a face of the Leafs franchise. Was he a star? Nope. He had a press conference when he retired. That is a face right there.
You said he has the numbers to back it up. I thought you were referring to meaningful numbers, not twitter followers or commercials.

Spaz though, that's a good one. Very mature.

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07-24-2012, 06:59 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by Paladin2799 View Post
Lets say that esco goes to the A's, and we get hanram and JJ for prospects not on the mlb roster.


How does moving lawrie to 2nd, and moving esco up to play SS? Lawrie has played extremely good defense and has shown remarkable range and athleticism. This lets us keep Hanram at 3rd.

Lawrie-Rasmus-Jbat-EE-Hanram-Snider-lind-JPA-hech

Thats pretty solid lineup. Hech is the only blackhole batting wise but his ++ defense at SS more then makes up for it.
I believe you meant to say Hechavarria.

but seriously, I don't see Lawrie switching from 3rd back to 2nd. That in my opinion just won't fly nor should it have to. If one were to switch positions, it would be HanRam to left field or back to shortstop. I wouldn't mind him going to shortstop because a guy like Butterfield is a wiz with the positioning of our infield and could definitely help him out much like he did with Aaron Hill and O-Dog. If he were to go to LF though that would unfortunately leave Snider expendable.

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07-24-2012, 07:32 PM
  #325
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You said he has the numbers to back it up. I thought you were referring to meaningful numbers, not twitter followers or commercials.

Spaz though, that's a good one. Very mature.
I meant twitter followers. You don't see the correlation but frankly, if the twitter followers are like that, I'm sure it goes hand in hand with regular fans not on twitter. Also, you didn't respond to my remark about Ricky Romero... Is he a top-5, 10 or 15 pitcher in the MLB? No. Is he a face of the franchise? Yes. So where's your argument there? Statistics =/= face of the franchise.

Oh and on the spaz remark, was there a need for the three f bombs to make your argument look more aggressive? Nah didn't think so.

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