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2012 CBJ Offseason Part III (Proposals, Speculations, Blog Rumors, etc. go here)

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Old
08-04-2012, 10:26 PM
  #326
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Originally Posted by Timeless Winter View Post
Kulemin for Tyutin.
No way

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08-04-2012, 11:17 PM
  #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timeless Winter View Post
Kulemin for Tyutin.
Like hell. Kulemin is a nice fill-in forward (and I wouldn't mind seeing if he could put up another 20+ or even 30-goal season in union blue), but Tyutin and Nikitin together formed one of the better defense pairings in the league. That duo has so far been much, much more than the sum of its parts and I'm not about to break it up so flippantly.

And to head off the inevitable 30th place related remarks, you may recall that our second pairing consisted primarily of a not-yet-ready John Moore and Aaron Johnson, with Brett Lebda filling in where he could.

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08-05-2012, 01:57 AM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Sore Loser View Post
Typical Leafs thinking. Target a player you think the other team will undervalue and only want to give up players you overvalue.

For us to trade Tyutin, I would have to think an above average offensive player or a top prospect would have to come the other way. Even though his contract is ugly, we are in no position to part with any pieces with that kind of value for players we already have a bevy of (MacArthur, Bozak), players with obvious injury questions (Lombardi, Connolly), or players that we have no use for (Gunnarsson).
When did I say that? I was just offering what was available. Gunnarsson is also underrated. He's probably a 3-4 D-man on most teams. I was just asking because it seems like Tyutin is a 2nd pairing defensemen and the Leafs need a more defensively sound defender for the second pairing. I wasn't ever stating that he was bad, or that what I offered was amazing. I didn't even put a deal out I just asked what would interest. He had a good season and from Viqsi's praise apparently he's great. I'm not knocking Columbus defense either, I figured with (what I've heard) Moore/Savard maybe coming up he could be pried away.

Also MacArthur is a 20-20 player. He was a big reason the KGM line did so well and excuse me for saying it, it doesn't look like Columbus has a bevy of 20 goal scorers with great intangibles and good vision. Only two players on the Jackets last year passed 20 goals, one isn't on the team anymore, Foligno, Umberger and Anisimov registered 15, 10, and 16 goals respectively while playing on playoff-calibre teams and getting an average of 14, 16, and 15 minutes respectively.

MacArthur averaged 15:50/g and managed 20 goals and 23 assists on a team that experienced a franchise-worst losing streak and winded up in 26th place in the NHL.

I don't want to start anything but please don't come out and make a good player sound like crap because he's in Leaf proposals. Also Viqsi, I wouldn't necessarily call Kulemin a fill-in forward. Despite only 8 goals a lot of fans in Toronto found him to be just fine. He's like a better Dubinsky. Goes to work on both ends of the ice, is always snooping around the net for a rebound, and goes to the corners. He had a lot of chances just was jinxed a large part of the year. But yes I could see why you don't want to trade Tyutin if he meshed with Nikitin that well. Defense is almost always a priority over offense imo.

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Old
08-05-2012, 06:44 AM
  #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgeworth View Post
Also MacArthur is a 20-20 player. He was a big reason the KGM line did so well and excuse me for saying it, it doesn't look like Columbus has a bevy of 20 goal scorers with great intangibles and good vision. Only two players on the Jackets last year passed 20 goals, one isn't on the team anymore, Foligno, Umberger and Anisimov registered 15, 10, and 16 goals respectively while playing on playoff-calibre teams and getting an average of 14, 16, and 15 minutes respectively.

MacArthur averaged 15:50/g and managed 20 goals and 23 assists on a team that experienced a franchise-worst losing streak and winded up in 26th place in the NHL.
Here, you compare player value based on last season only.

Quote:
I don't want to start anything but please don't come out and make a good player sound like crap because he's in Leaf proposals. Also Viqsi, I wouldn't necessarily call Kulemin a fill-in forward. Despite only 8 goals a lot of fans in Toronto found him to be just fine. He's like a better Dubinsky. Goes to work on both ends of the ice, is always snooping around the net for a rebound, and goes to the corners. He had a lot of chances just was jinxed a large part of the year. But yes I could see why you don't want to trade Tyutin if he meshed with Nikitin that well. Defense is almost always a priority over offense imo.
But here you're willing to dismiss last year's results based on a larger body of work.

MacArthur, Gunnar and Kulemin are all fine, and I like them as players. But none (perhaps Kulemin, but I'm sure not trading Tyutin for him) offer a significant boost to the CBJ roster, especially in trade.

Jackets fans might be more amenable to trading Erixon, Savard or even Moore.

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08-05-2012, 07:01 AM
  #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgeworth View Post
What would it take to get Tyutin to Toronto?

Available commodoties are:
Gunnarsson, MacArthur, Lombardi, Bozak, Connolly, prospects excluding the obvious (Kadri, Gardiner, Ross, Biggs, Ashton, Rielly)
E -None of the above

At this point the Jackets need to go big (Bobby Ryan for example) or stay the course and see what happens with the current lineup.

Or sign a FA such as Sykora or Arnott for some veteran depth (and possibly scoring?) in the forward ranks.

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08-05-2012, 10:53 AM
  #331
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I would not mid either Arnott or Sykora as an addition. They would fit in with the style of team we are trying to develop.

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08-05-2012, 11:44 AM
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgeworth View Post
What would it take to get Tyutin to Toronto?

Available commodoties are:
Gunnarsson, MacArthur, Lombardi, Bozak, Connolly, prospects excluding the obvious (Kadri, Gardiner, Ross, Biggs, Ashton, Rielly)
No one on your available list brings back Tyutin, and I'm not interested in a package of lesser players.

If you want to send JVR, we can talk otherwise never mind.

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08-05-2012, 11:57 AM
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgeworth View Post
Also Viqsi, I wouldn't necessarily call Kulemin a fill-in forward. Despite only 8 goals a lot of fans in Toronto found him to be just fine. He's like a better Dubinsky. Goes to work on both ends of the ice, is always snooping around the net for a rebound, and goes to the corners. He had a lot of chances just was jinxed a large part of the year.
Maybe that was an unclear choice of words - I meant that he's not a top-end talent, but he would do fine in the top-6 (which is what our forward corps pretty much exclusively consists of nowadays). I don't expect him to perpetually score in the single digits - I consider last year's 7 to be as much a fluke as the prior year's 30.

Frankly, my only disagreement with the analysis here is the use of the word "better".

Incidentally, we wouldn't have much use for MacArthur. We've got a ton of LWs as it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TaketheCannoli View Post
No one on your available list brings back Tyutin, and I'm not interested in a package of lesser players.

If you want to send JVR, we can talk otherwise never mind.
I wouldn't be interested - as I've said before, IMO JvR genuinely is everything that everyone accuses Nash of being. Also, the Leafs org has this insane harebrained scheme to try him out as their #1C (no, really, stop laughing, that's their stated plan!) and regardless of what Leafs fans think about that mishegaas, it means he won't be traded anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by EDM View Post
I would not mid either Arnott or Sykora as an addition. They would fit in with the style of team we are trying to develop.
The more I hear about Arnott's time in Nashville, the less I believe he's suited. Which is frustrating considering how I originally thought he'd be a nice add.

Sykora, OTOH, can stay on the list.


Last edited by Viqsi: 08-05-2012 at 12:03 PM. Reason: tpyoed when adding other reply, d'oh
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Old
08-05-2012, 12:07 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Maybe that was an unclear choice of words - I meant that he's not a top-end talent, but he would do fine in the top-6 (which is what our forward corps pretty much exclusively consists of nowadays). I don't expect him to perpetually score in the single digits - I consider last year's 7 to be as much a fluke as the prior year's 30.

Frankly, my only disagreement with the analysis here is the use of the word "better".

Incidentally, we wouldn't have much use for MacArthur. We've got a ton of LWs as it is.



I wouldn't be interested - as I've said before, IMO JvR genuinely is everything that everyone accuses Nash of being. Also, the Leafs org has this insane harebrained scheme to try him out as their #1C (no, really, stop laughing, that's their stated plan!) and regardless of what Leafs fans think about that mishegaas, it means he won't be traded anytime soon.



The more I hear about Arnott's time in Nashville, the less I believe he's suited. Which is frustrating considering how I originally thought he'd be a nice add.

Sykora, OTOH, can stay on the list.
MacArthur can also play RW if it helps. But yes I get what you're saying. I didn't know Tyutin had become that valuable which was my mistake. As to Doubleshift I wasn't exactly dismissing Kulemin's year, it was a down year, I was just trying to stress how well he did in every aspect outside of goalscoring. I don't think Leaf fans were that disappointed with Kulemin which should be a testament to how well he plays away from the puck.

And Viqsi I doubt the JVR experiment works haha. As far as I know it's a trial and what will most likely go down is he's bumped back to LW and Bozak takes his spot again.

But yes sorry about the kafuffle, I clearly undervalued Tyutin which is my fault. Just came for an appraisal.

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08-05-2012, 12:28 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
The power play right now is among the least of my worries.
15.5%, 24th in the league and that was with Nash, who accounted for 6 of our 28 ppg's.

I think its worth worrying about.

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08-05-2012, 01:30 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Edgeworth View Post
But yes sorry about the kafuffle, I clearly undervalued Tyutin which is my fault. Just came for an appraisal.
When you're coming at a group of fans with a trade theory, starting off by naming a bunch of "untouchables" isn't the way to do it. This will always agitate people right off the bat. "We want _____ and you can have _____ but none of ___, ___, or ___"

It will always cause a "kafuffle"

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08-05-2012, 02:02 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Nordique View Post
15.5%, 24th in the league and that was with Nash, who accounted for 6 of our 28 ppg's.

I think its worth worrying about.
Wait, we only had 28 powerplay goals? ****...

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08-05-2012, 02:05 PM
  #338
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We had 49 PPGs...

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08-05-2012, 02:26 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Samkow View Post
We had 49 PPGs...
This is a much more believable number.

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08-05-2012, 02:30 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by Nordique View Post
15.5%, 24th in the league and that was with Nash, who accounted for 6 of our 28 ppg's.

I think its worth worrying about.
1) We had considerably more than 28 PPGs. Simple math would show that if that your total was correct, that would mean we only had 181 power play opportunities all year. (For the record, the NHL low last year was Colorado with 223. We were #2 in the league with 317 - which means that we were actually in a five-way tie for #8 in the league in total PPGs scored.)

2) Tyutin and Nikitin were the only ones able to consistently run the PP, and they were reasonably OK. They're now second-unit behind JMFJ-Wiz. And frankly, virtually everybody had a down year last year.

3) If you're truly convinced that we're that behind on the power play, we can always sign Arnott. He also had 6 PPGs last year.

Again. The power play is among the least of my worries.

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08-05-2012, 02:58 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by Samkow View Post
We had 49 PPGs...


But 28 feels more right

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08-05-2012, 06:32 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
1) We had considerably more than 28 PPGs. Simple math would show that if that your total was correct, that would mean we only had 181 power play opportunities all year. (For the record, the NHL low last year was Colorado with 223. We were #2 in the league with 317 - which means that we were actually in a five-way tie for #8 in the league in total PPGs scored.)

2) Tyutin and Nikitin were the only ones able to consistently run the PP, and they were reasonably OK. They're now second-unit behind JMFJ-Wiz. And frankly, virtually everybody had a down year last year.

3) If you're truly convinced that we're that behind on the power play, we can always sign Arnott. He also had 6 PPGs last year.

Again. The power play is among the least of my worries.
We were 24th in the league in pp%, lets be clear on that.

15.5% conversion rate, my mistake was listing only home game ppg's, but that doesn't change the fact that 23 teams converted at a better rate and only 6 were worse. Simple math will tell you that we sucked on the PP.

24th in the league on the PP with Nash...how about without Nash? I think adding a 1-2 million dollar veteran skater wouldn't be a bad idea, Arnott would certainly fit the bill. I like the point tandems alot...best we've ever had in Columbus, I like the guys in front of the net too (RJ, Dubinsky, Foligno), what I'd like is more scoring touch to finish those second chances.

Again, you should be more worried about the pp, because a grinding team will see alot of pp time

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08-05-2012, 06:39 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by gojackets1 View Post
Wait, we only had 28 powerplay goals? ****...
28 pp goals at home, I grabbed the wrong number. Still overall we were 24th in the league.

Nash led the team with 6, followed by a three way tie between RJ, Brassard, and JJ, with 5 each.

Johnson will likely score more this year, being on board for a full season running the 1pp unit.

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08-05-2012, 07:31 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by Nordique View Post
28 pp goals at home, I grabbed the wrong number. Still overall we were 24th in the league.

Nash led the team with 6, followed by a three way tie between RJ, Brassard, and JJ, with 5 each.

Johnson will likely score more this year, being on board for a full season running the 1pp unit.
You messed up the stats again.
Actually Carter led the team with 8 PP goals last year.

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08-05-2012, 07:52 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
You messed up the stats again.
Actually "He who must not be named" led the team with 8 PP goals last year.
Fixed.

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08-05-2012, 08:04 PM
  #346
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You messed up the stats again.
Actually ****** led the team with 8 PP goals last year.
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Originally Posted by FANonymous View Post
Fixed.
Fixed again.

Yes, his name is now a swear word around the CBJ HF boards.

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08-05-2012, 08:48 PM
  #347
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Fixed again.

Yes, his name is now a swear word around the CBJ HF boards.
You can go Carter yourself!

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08-05-2012, 09:20 PM
  #348
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The PP improved with Richards. It's weird to say, but I honestly don't see them missing Nash that much. Maybe the 2008-09 Nash, but not the 11-12 beaten down Nash. The PP was far less reliant on a guy like Nash than it was good puck movement from the points and accurate shots on net from up high more than the dots or wall where Nash seemed to hang out.

The stat that worries me, the one I want to see absolutely improved is this one:

6-33-3 .143

This is the CBJ record when they didn't score first. This, IMO, more than any other stat, says what 'you're made of' as a team. To call them marshmellows might be an insult to soft confections everywhere.

When I see that stat...6...count 'em, six friggin wins...I throw up in my mouth just a bit. I'm reminded of this scene (maybe NSFW):


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08-05-2012, 09:41 PM
  #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordique View Post
We were 24th in the league in pp%, lets be clear on that.

15.5% conversion rate, my mistake was listing only home game ppg's, but that doesn't change the fact that 23 teams converted at a better rate and only 6 were worse. Simple math will tell you that we sucked on the PP.
You are of course free to name any area of the offense where we did not suck last year.

I'm not sure why focusing on the power play is of such particular worry - especially since it's a setup that benefits significantly from having good guys in the faceoff circle (we have lots), guys able to do well in front of the net (we have lots) and skilled offensive blueliners (we have lots). All of these are things you have acknowledged us as having - moreover, we have them all together simultaneously for the first time, well, ever. And yet you still seem worried, which has me really puzzled.

Nashville managed a #1 in the NHL power play last year with comparable skill on the blueline (although less spread out) and a very similar forward corps. The system was fairly straightforward:
  • Win faceoff.
  • Get the puck to Weber. Weber shoots.
  • If there's a rebound, the guy in front attempts a cleanup goal.
  • If the puck goes elsewhere, get the puck and anyone trying to move it against the boards to prevent a clearing attempt, win that board battle, then GOTO step 2. Otherwise, GOTO step 1.
  • Repeat until time expires or you have scored.
They converted at over 21% that way. Cross-ice passes - who needs 'em? Occasionally, if variety was called for, it'd be Suter taking the shot.

The power play continues to be among the least of my worries.

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08-05-2012, 10:00 PM
  #350
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Do not wish to be known as Nashville north...

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