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Old
01-20-2013, 06:10 PM
  #451
BraveCanadian
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Could be. Right now so much of his game is based on his inhuman quickness on skates. No way he moves like that in 15 years, carrying another 20 pounds.

Anyway, as someone who has been down on a certain historically prominent offensive d-man, it's interesting for me to be watching and cheering for Karlsson now. He does have a few weaknesses, but the total package is so valuable. And this year he should be a major part of the Ottawa PK, answering a question from last season.
He may avoid gaining that poor reputation later on because so much more of his early career will be available in the highlight videos.

It is interesting how many people are amazed with Karlsson when he is a certain historically prominent offensive d-man -- lite version so far.. maybe you'll come around now!

I sure hope he keeps progressing though because it would be nice to see a team with that kind of weapon blowing games open again.

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Old
01-20-2013, 06:15 PM
  #452
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
That bloody game nearly game me a heart attack...but it's on to the superbowl for the 49ers. ****. Yes.
I've been a die-hard 49er fan for a long-time, so I share in your excitement for this long-awaited Super Bowl trip.

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01-20-2013, 06:29 PM
  #453
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Did Erik Karlsson just got compared to Ray Bourque?

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Old
01-20-2013, 06:29 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
He may avoid gaining that poor reputation later on because so much more of his early career will be available in the highlight videos.

It is interesting how many people are amazed with Karlsson when he is a certain historically prominent offensive d-man -- lite version so far.. maybe you'll come around now!

I sure hope he keeps progressing though because it would be nice to see a team with that kind of weapon blowing games open again.
We'll see. I may have to watch some more video. But I don't think Karlsson will end up as the lite version.

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Old
01-20-2013, 06:33 PM
  #455
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
We'll see. I may have to watch some more video. But I don't think Karlsson will end up as the lite version.
We'll see about that. He's still got a long way to go to equal the original. I love Karlsson and I think he can get there, but it is a very high standard.

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01-20-2013, 06:57 PM
  #456
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Two goals by Marleau against Calgary tonight at the end of the 2nd period: BOTH goals demonstrate his elite-level soft hands around the net as he quickly and efficiently went backhand to forehand on the first, and forehand to backhand on the second, both in close by the crease. That is where he scores the lion's share of his goals, as, when it comes to loose pucks or fast passes around the net, few in his era can match Marleau in collecting the hot biscuit and putting it in the basket up close and personal to the goaltender.

Unfortunately, the lockout has put a kink in his 30-goal scoring streak: six of the last seven seasons.

Oh well, at least he'll get his 400th goal this season. And next season he could return to 30 goals, as he still has the wheels to go with his hands.

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Old
01-20-2013, 06:59 PM
  #457
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was really impressed by Jagr's return last night

same with Kovalev

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Old
01-20-2013, 07:01 PM
  #458
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
was really impressed by Jagr's return last night

same with Kovalev
Missed them, but saw the stats sheets. I did watch the Pens-Flyers game: It was intense and awesome! It was like watching a playoff game. That rivalry hasn't disappointed in recent years. That Hartnell pass to Giroux was incredible and the game was close down to the wire.

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Old
01-20-2013, 07:13 PM
  #459
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Missed them, but saw the stats sheets. I did watch the Pens-Flyers game: It was intense and awesome! It was like watching a playoff game. That rivalry hasn't disappointed in recent years. That Hartnell pass to Giroux was incredible and the game was close down to the wire.
saw them , Jagr's highlights were quite good , Kovalev was ok but more of a stat game than a wow game for him.

Jagr looks dominating (which of course is easy with 4 pts in a 4-3 win)

still , jagr was burning the league in europe so who knows?

If he could win an art ross it would be such an accomplishment it would boost his resume through the roof.I am rooting for the old man , it is my generation after all.I have a harder time rooting for players that are younger than me for some reasons , I like them but its not the same as guys I was watching between 5 and 20 years old.

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01-20-2013, 07:17 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
saw them , Jagr's highlights were quite good , Kovalev was ok but more of a stat game than a wow game for him.

Jagr looks dominating (which of course is easy with 4 pts in a 4-3 win)

still , jagr was burning the league in europe so who knows?

If he could win an art ross it would be such an accomplishment it would boost his resume through the roof.I am rooting for the old man , it is my generation after all.I have a harder time rooting for players that are younger than me for some reasons , I like them but its not the same as guys I was watching between 5 and 20 years old.
His success, along with Selanne and others, is also a strong argument against "players are so much better today!!"

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01-20-2013, 07:25 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
His success, along with Selanne and others, is also a strong argument against "players are so much better today!!"
YES , and I love every second of it.Can't stand those jerks arguing these kind of none-sense.I avoid these conversations like cockroaches.

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01-20-2013, 07:26 PM
  #462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
His success, along with Selanne and others, is also a strong argument against "players are so much better today!!"
"But Jagr and Selanne were active players so they evolved along with the league!"

(Yes, I've seen this terrible argument actually made in earnest).

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Old
01-20-2013, 07:30 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
"But Jagr and Selanne were active players so they evolved along with the league!"

(Yes, I've seen this terrible argument actually made in earnest).
The logic behind this argument is that the current version of Selanne and Jagr are better than the 90s versions.

Which brings me to my next point:

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Old
01-20-2013, 07:32 PM
  #464
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
The logic behind this argument is that the current version of Selanne and Jagr are better than the 90s versions.

Which brings me to my next point:
Exactly. There is no reasoning with some people.

The opposite are the people who think that every player who played when they were a child was better than every more recent player with a similar resume, because "the older guy looked better to me."

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Old
01-20-2013, 07:38 PM
  #465
BenchBrawl
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Exactly. There is no reasoning with some people.

The opposite are the people who think that every player who played when they were a child was better than every more recent player with a similar resume, because "the older guy looked better to me."
In my opinion some people , rare people , are just genetically born to execute some specific moves that are very useful in hockey , all the while having the type of brain to evaluate a lot of informations in the heat of actions and I would be very surprise if the cutting-edge of humans genetics were THAT superior in just 4 or 5 generations.Are the geniuses of today smarter than Einstein? No.But they have the formulas of Einstein to perform at a higher cutting-edge , but as far as their own merit in reaching this cutting-edge , it is simply because Einstein did some important work that would have required them to spend their entire life on if Einstein didn't do it previously.So as a prototype , they aren't superior.If you put them in Einstein's era , they would have to actually find what Einstein found , and they wouldn't be able to do what they do now because progress is step by step.

And you know , when nobody is doing something spectacular , there's always the argument that ''the league'' is tougher now , or that ''math and physic are tougher now'' , and this argument remains...until another outlier comes along.That's just standard deviations.

I think all of this is a symptom of the arrogance of today's generation.They are spoiled and they think they invented the world.It pisses me off because it is an enormous lack of respect for every humans who killed themselves working on making progress for the human race in all fields.

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Old
01-20-2013, 07:41 PM
  #466
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The opposite are the people who think that every player who played when they were a child was better than every more recent player with a similar resume, because "the older guy looked better to me."
You are not talking about those who watched two players' entire careers and simply believes one is better than the other based on everything one saw, not some stats sheets. The older you get, the more you find examples of b.s. distortion by youngsters who try to argue with numbers something that was patently absurd to those who watched the player. Are stats superior to personal judgement? Sure, in cases of homer bias. But often stats are a smokescreen and lying with statstics is pretty easy to do, especially in the face of the judgements of those who saw the players play, hence the value of quotes by a player's peers in ATD bios as other players, coaches and sportswriters are knowledgeable and able judges of talent, ability and intangibles, and put things into context in a way that numbers alone doesn't.

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Old
01-20-2013, 07:45 PM
  #467
BenchBrawl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
You are not talking about those who watched two players' entire careers and simply believes one is better than the other based on everything one saw, not some stats sheets. The older you get, the more you find examples of b.s. distortion by youngsters who try to argue with numbers something that was patently absurd to those who watched the player. Are stats superior to personal judgement? Sure, in cases of homer bias. But often stats are a smokescreen and lying with statstics is pretty easy to do, especially in the face of the judgements of those who saw the players play.
agreed , but at the same time you need a decent sample of personal judgement.You can't just give one or two person the power of deciding who was better or not.

Hockey is very hard to describe with numbers.Fluid games are like that.

this is also why quotes are important in the ATD.Unfortunately , a lot of quotes from known figures are often ridiculous because they didn't want to piss anybody and they just keep flattering anybody they were talking about because they knew them and knew they were going to deal with them personally in the future.

A fictionnal example: Journalist ask Gretzky about Lindros game: Lindros is incredible , I've never seen a player with that much talent.

Journalist ask Gretzky about Lemieux: The most talented player I ever faced.

Me: ?????


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Old
01-20-2013, 07:49 PM
  #468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
You are not talking about those who watched two players' entire careers and simply believes one is better than the other based on everything one saw, not some stats sheets. The older you get, the more you find examples of b.s. distortion by youngsters who try to argue with numbers something that was patently absurd to those who watched the player. Are stats superior to personal judgement? Sure, in cases of homer bias. But often stats are a smokescreen and lying with statstics is pretty easy to do, especially in the face of the judgements of those who saw the players play, hence the value of quotes by a player's peers in ATD bios as other players, coaches and sportswriters are knowledgeable and able judges of talent, ability and intangibles, and put things into context in a way that numbers alone doesn't.
When the "eye test" consistently favors players from a certain era (usually the era during which a fan first started watching hockey), then I question whether it has any use. At that point, it's just viewing the past through rose-colored glasses, basically "era homerism," if that makes sense.

I definitely agree with you that the opinions of people who watched a player play are important, especially when comparing him to other players who played at the same time.

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Old
01-20-2013, 09:03 PM
  #469
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
"But Jagr and Selanne were active players so they evolved along with the league!"

(Yes, I've seen this terrible argument actually made in earnest).
I think it's true to some degree. I just don't think it means anything. If every player is capable of evolving along with the league, why is the evolution of the league relevant when rating players? For that matter, why assume that evolution is in a positive direction?

Jagr has the additional wrinkle that some of his "evolution" took place in the KHL.

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01-20-2013, 09:04 PM
  #470
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I think it's true to some degree. I just don't think it means anything. If every player is capable of evolving along with the league, why is the evolution of the league relevant when rating players? For that matter, why assume that evolution is in a positive direction?
Yeah, I agree.

Quote:
Jagr has the additional wrinkle that some of his "evolution" took place in the KHL.
Oh, good point! Sort of makes that one an even tougher sell than it already was.

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01-20-2013, 09:05 PM
  #471
BenchBrawl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
I think it's true to some degree. I just don't think it means anything. If every player is capable of evolving along with the league, why is the evolution of the league relevant when rating players? For that matter, why assume that evolution is in a positive direction?

Jagr has the additional wrinkle that some of his "evolution" took place in the KHL.
that's a profound post and I agree.

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Old
01-21-2013, 05:38 AM
  #472
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Yeah, I agree.



Oh, good point! Sort of makes that one an even tougher sell than it already was.
Mats Näslund fits that desrciption too although maybe not to the same extent as Jagr. He went to europe and came back to the league when it had changed profoundly since the '80s and still put upp 22 pts in 34 games.

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Old
01-21-2013, 07:52 AM
  #473
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If your ATD team is named after a real one, add one more bit of "honoring hockey history" to the ATD and post some real-world info about your team in the roster thread. I just added a little writeup on the real-world Dallas Black Hawks (Chicago farm team, 4x CHL champion in the 60's, 70's and 80's) and I would love to see info / stories about everyone's team!

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Old
01-21-2013, 08:35 AM
  #474
BenchBrawl
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I just realized this morning that after almost 3 decades of winter in my life , I just can't stand this season anymore.

My balls are tired of enduring -30C temperatures and so is my car who keeps getting stuck.I really need a 4X4 next year.


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Old
01-21-2013, 02:34 PM
  #475
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This is a couple years old, but it's perfect for the ATD crowd:


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