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Flyers sign Shea Weber to 14-year offer sheet ($7.857M Cap Hit) (Pt VII)

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07-22-2012, 01:52 PM
  #126
LSnow
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If i was Nashville i would present trade Couturier+2-3 1st round picks or Weber, and if Philly is not eager to do then match, let Philly decide witch one is more important, couple of late 1st + young promising center or best defenseman in the league.

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07-22-2012, 01:56 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
This.

David Poile and Paul Holmgren are speaking today and it's not so Poile could say he's matching (he would just match). They are going to workout a trade that helps Nashville get some proven assets back instead of picks. Holmgren and Poile are friends, which is why, if you notice, there hasn't been ANY public mud-slinging in the media like when the Oilers signed Penner to a RFA sheet.

Here is the breakdown for those who actually want to understand and follow along...

1. Poile tries to sign Weber long-term but has to sign Suter first.

2. Suter signs with Minnesota and Poile is furious and hurt because he lost him for NOTHING.

3. Poile re-opens contract negotiations with Weber who says he does not want to be part of a rebuild, is mad that Suter left, and wants to pursue his career in another market after next season.

4. Weber's agent tells Poile it's in his best interest to trade Shea Weber now because he has no intentions of re-signing there after the season and he shouldn't lose Weber for nothing (the way he did with Suter).

5. Poile shops Weber to multiple teams for two weeks, while Shea Weber tours different markets, facilities and meets with teams.

6. Weber feels Philadelphia is the best fit for him and tells Poile that's where he would like to go if a trade can be worked out.

7. Poile and Holmgren have intense trade discussions for over a week and can't agree on a trade.

8. Holmgren and Weber agree to sign an offer sheet so the Flyers know if/when they trade assets for Weber, they have him signed long-term. In the process, they sign him to a sheet which they know the Preds ownership cannot match.

9. Poile meets with ownership and gives them an update on the events. He makes it clear that Weber does not want to commit long-term and their options are to smatch anyway or try and workout a follow-up hockey deal with the Flyers.

10. The owners feel matching is not in the club's best interest financially and Poile agrees.

11. Poile and Holmgren talk and decide on a fair compensation (not for Weber) but for some of the 1st round picks going back to Philadelphia.
I had no idea you were there the entire time. Must be cool to be a fly on the wall...

I don't think that is how it completely happened, I am pretty sure Philly was the only team to offer sheet him, at least to a contract like this. Don't fool yourself, this on Weber's side was all about the money. He may like the idea of going to philly, it may be his 1st choice, but if it wasn't all about the money he would have gone about this differently.

I am not a fan of either team, and for my team it is actually best if Weber does leave the conference and go to philly, Give pits and NYR some major trouble. But I just look at it from the side of rebuilding now and loosing what they would have lost this off season, being a bigger debt than 27 mil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
I take it you don't follow the Predators. Money IS A HUGE PROBLEM, especially up front cash. They recently had to RAISE $25 million to help cover team loses. David Poile needed to get APPROVAL from the owners to bring in a player with a prorated $2 million contract at the deadline. Money is a HUGE issue, which is why the Flyers structured the deal in a way which there was no financially viable chance the Predators could sign. You know who matches that Weber offer sheet? The New York Rangers or Toronto Maple Leafs.... not a small market franchise that has been LOSING millions year after year.
People keep saying that and pointing to a report that has a disclaimer at the top saying it is just a guess. When everything else we have heard is the opposite. Where the truth lies I don't know, but stop stated it as fact.

In one of the earlier threads, someone went through and proved if NSH matches, it is not a 27 mil price tag of death, that it would only be 3.5 mil more than they paid last year. I know 27 mil sounds better, and saying it is within a calender year makes it scary, but truth be told, its not that bad.

I just think there is a lot at play here for NSH. Taken their time to explore all options is probably best, seeing what they could get for the picks, and projections for price tag on both sides, plus as someone pointed out waiting to see if this offer sheet will be passed by the NHL (they have until monday night to decide that). Taking their time is probably best.

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07-22-2012, 01:56 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
I take it you don't follow the Predators. Money IS A HUGE PROBLEM, especially up front cash. They recently had to RAISE $25 million to help cover team loses. David Poile needed to get APPROVAL from the owners to bring in a player with a prorated $2 million contract at the deadline. Money is a HUGE issue, which is why the Flyers structured the deal in a way which there was no financially viable chance the Predators could sign. You know who matches that Weber offer sheet? The New York Rangers or Toronto Maple Leafs.... not a small market franchise that has been LOSING millions year after year.

So the claim that they had been given the financial resources to resign Weber AND Suter was a lie?


If that's the case, then sure they're done.

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07-22-2012, 01:56 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by LSnow View Post
If i was Nashville i would present trade Couturier+2-3 1st round picks or Weber, and if Philly is not eager to do then match, let Philly decide witch one is more important, couple of late 1st + young promising center or best defenseman in the league.
Nashville has no negociation power. Flyers know Preds won't match, so why would they give more than the required 4 first rounders ?

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07-22-2012, 01:58 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post


If the Predators were going to match, they would have matched within 24 hours (or at least in the last 4 DAYS).
How do you know this? They're not required to respond within 24 hours, 4 days or 6.5 days. Why shouldn't they take the full 7 days they're allowed to take? Just because it's logical to you doesn't mean it's true.

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If the Predators were going to match, David Poile and his management team wouldn't have scheduled a phone conference with Paul Holmgren today. They are working out a trade for the picks.
Last I saw, this info was from a banned, fake source. Has it been confirmed anywhere? (And you're assuming they'd be talking about a trade for the picks. Maybe Poile is calling to let Homgren know he's decided to match. Or not. No way to know if they're talking about a trade for the picks. Likely? Maybe, but can't be stated factually at this point.)

Quote:
I guess you're right, it didn't "actually happen" yet.... but guess what, we are all going to die one day. Even though it hasn't happened yet, it's still GOING TO happen because it's inevitable.
Awesome, a psychic in our midst! I'm out of work at the moment - could you give me this week's Lotto numbers? I could really use the extra dough.

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07-22-2012, 01:58 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSnow View Post
If i was Nashville i would present trade Couturier+2-3 1st round picks or Weber, and if Philly is not eager to do then match, let Philly decide witch one is more important, couple of late 1st + young promising center or best defenseman in the league.
It has been pretty clearly established that trade talks broke down precisely because the Flyers wouldn't include Schenn or Couturier. I'm not sure why you think Nashville has more leverage now than last week--when, in addition to signing him long-term or trading him to the Flyers, they could also sign him for one year, or trade him to 28 other teams.

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07-22-2012, 01:58 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSnow View Post
If i was Nashville i would present trade Couturier+2-3 1st round picks or Weber, and if Philly is not eager to do then match, let Philly decide witch one is more important, couple of late 1st + young promising center or best defenseman in the league.
Homer says match it then. It they match it? Then this proceeds to the collapse of the franchise of the Predators. As i said in another thread. How are they going to build a team around him? A small market team spending big market money? Highly unlikely. They still have to get to the cap floor.

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07-22-2012, 01:59 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
Yes and not giving hints. But a Philly station accidentally leaked the scheduled phone call between Holmgren and Poile from what I understand.
So let us see the sources then, I don't doubt it, I think it is smart no matter what happens, but at this point just saying it means nothing.

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07-22-2012, 01:59 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koto View Post
So the claim that they had been given the financial resources to resign Weber AND Suter was a lie?


If that's the case, then sure they're done.
Nashville could probably afford to absorb the cap hit and term, just not this type of contract with the heavily frontloaded signing bonuses.

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07-22-2012, 01:59 PM
  #135
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The only leverage Nashville has is their RIGHT (not ability) to match. All signs point to that being very unlikely. What will save them a bit is the relationship between Poile and Holmgren, which will result in some good assets going to the Preds.

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07-22-2012, 01:59 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by JFB View Post
Nashville has no negociation power. Flyers know Preds won't match, so why would they give more than the required 4 first rounders ?
So they for sure sure get him? I have no idea of Nashville financial situation so it could be a bluff or not, but that is what i would do. Make the last day as the deadline for the deal.

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07-22-2012, 01:59 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by ELab2 View Post
- After they trade Suter Weber and Co decided they wanted to explore different options and went shopping

- Weber does not want to be part of another rebuild

- Weber wants to play in Philadelphia, otherwise he wouldn't have signed the offer sheet

- If Nashville matches Weber will see where he goes from there when the time comes

Those are things his agent said, what about that doesn't strongly suggest that he has a clear preference not to be in Nashville.
Exactly my point. The agent hasn't said "Weber is unhappy and would be upset." People are jumping to that conclusion from what actually was said. And that's fine, they're entitled, but it shouldn't be claimed that the agent has said things he hasn't, especially when they're as definitive as this.

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07-22-2012, 02:02 PM
  #138
racerjoe
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Originally Posted by JFB View Post
Nashville has no negociation power. Flyers know Preds won't match, so why would they give more than the required 4 first rounders ?
They don't know anything, no one does. What if they are not bluffing, what if they are the onse who told Philly, give us XY and Z plus to 1st, or we will match. Then told them you have 7 days to figure it out. We just don't know.

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07-22-2012, 02:02 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by LSnow View Post
So they for sure sure get him? I have no idea of Nashville financial situation so it could be a bluff or not, but that is what i would do. Make the last day as the deadline for the deal.
Basically, we're talking about a 14M$/year contract that eats only 7M$ cap wise. There's no way Nashville matches this, and Holmgren knows it.

The only reason Philly could give more than the minimum compensation is because he feels guilty toward Poile.

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07-22-2012, 02:03 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
Exactly my point. The agent hasn't said "Weber is unhappy and would be upset." People are jumping to that conclusion from what actually was said. And that's fine, they're entitled, but it shouldn't be claimed that the agent has said things he hasn't, especially when they're as definitive as this.
I have heard from a second-hand source(Not direct contact, but he heard it from someone that had direct contact with Weber... the guy is one of my best friends) that he would be upset if Nashville matched, but as is his job as a professional, he would honor the commitment he made and play at a high level. He doesn't want to play there any more, apparently he holds serious resentment about the whole arbitration issue.

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07-22-2012, 02:04 PM
  #141
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How does management live this down when they have been beating the drum of "we are a cap team" and end up losing Suter and Weber? Obviously Suter is much more complicated, but the perception is all that matters.

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07-22-2012, 02:07 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by MuckOG View Post
Nashville could probably afford to absorb the cap hit and term, just not this type of contract with the heavily frontloaded signing bonuses.
I think if they can afford the total money, they can afford the contract. I believe they have a line of credit now, or recently got one. It was in one of the other threads.

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07-22-2012, 02:09 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
I think if they can afford the total money, they can afford the contract. I believe they have a line of credit now, or recently got one. It was in one of the other threads.
We'll see.....

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07-22-2012, 02:09 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by FadeToBlack View Post
I have heard from a second-hand source(Not direct contact, but he heard it from someone that had direct contact with Weber... the guy is one of my best friends) that he would be upset if Nashville matched, but as is his job as a professional, he would honor the commitment he made and play at a high level. He doesn't want to play there any more, apparently he holds serious resentment about the whole arbitration issue.
I am sorry, I have to call a bluff here, because if he wanted out of NSH he would not have signed this offersheet, because there is still a chance he would be a Predator. There would have been much smarter ways to go about it.

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07-22-2012, 02:11 PM
  #145
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So the claim that they had been given the financial resources to resign Weber AND Suter was a lie?
No, they were given the "financial resources" to resign Weber and Suter. But, notice how Suter signed with Minnesota and Weber signed an offer sheet with Philadelphia?

The "financial resources" the Predators have cannot match what the other teams were offering all around. "Financial resources" were the same reason the Predators elected to take Weber to arbitration last year (offering him under $5 million in the process).

The Predators were HOPING they could resign all three of Rinne, Suter and Weber to deals that were fair for the player and fair for the PREDATORS. What turned us is that the MARKET for Suter and Weber was a lot more intense than the Predators even imagined, especially in terms of signing bonuses and length of contract.

So, yes, the Predators were given "financial resources" to sign Suter and Weber IF the deals made financial sense for the ownership group and team long-term.... NOT the monster, over-the-top, mega-market deals that they signed.

Big difference here.

It's like walking into a car dealership with $1,000 in hard cash to put down on a car and knowing you can take on a monthly payment of $300 a month. When you get to the dealership, you realize the dealer-incentives are over and the car will be significantly more expensive than you planned. You tell the sales manager you can only afford to pay $300 a month so he runs the numbers and comes up with various scenarios. Then he tells you he CAN give you the car for $300 a month BUT you need to put down $5,500 as the down-payment (when you ONLY have $1,000).

This is the exact predicament the Predators are/were in. They have the "$300 a month" but they don't have the "$5,500" down payment. To make matters worse, a potential work-stoppage is the equivalent of a bank telling the potential car buyer, "we'll LOAN you the extra $4,500 down-payment, but the interest rate is 25%, so instead of paying us back $4,500, you will pay us a total of $6,780 over the term."

Sooner or later, you realize that car doesn't look like such a good deal and you live with the fact that, as much as you want it, you just can't afford it.

That is what happened with the Predators. They were hoping to get a "fair" deal on Suter and Weber and didn't expect a couple of teams to totally DRIVE UP THE MARKET to the point where they can't play ball.

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07-22-2012, 02:13 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post


If the Predators were going to match, they would have matched within 24 hours (or at least in the last 4 DAYS).

If the Predators were going to match, David Poile and his management team wouldn't have scheduled a phone conference with Paul Holmgren today. They are working out a trade for the picks.

I guess you're right, it didn't "actually happen" yet.... but guess what, we are all going to die one day. Even though it hasn't happened yet, it's still GOING TO happen because it's inevitable.
before this offer sheet many fan basis talked about having to offer big money with a huge payout the first few years to disuade Nas matching.......if the philly offer was even money or even slightly front loaded Nas matches


as for matching this(kudas for philly for offering this) ,they are not going to rush in and match or not

match

they will crunch the numbers on how they can afford the first couple of years.......also look at the other options


if you are Nas you wait till the ninth hour and the last day and saying we are going to match,,,,,,whats your final offer phi......


now they know phi can walk away they themselves can take the 4 picks(if it is a ploy to get a better deal than the 4 picks)



but philly sitting there with
timminon coburn
mez,schenn
grossman,lila,gervais is not getting that talented team to the SCF

because if Nas ignores your opinion or mine or any other hf opinion......phi is back to square one reguardless of a bold thrust by holmgren



say Van offers up an edler, burrows a couple of prosepe ts or couple 1st rd picks

or det offers up a fransen and ericcson or similiar and a couple of first rd picks


not saying they would do that exact pkg but to get a franchise dman........nas gets two good proven
players plus picks. rather than 4 1st rd ?????

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07-22-2012, 02:14 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by JFB View Post
Basically, we're talking about a 14M$/year contract that eats only 7M$ cap wise. There's no way Nashville matches this, and Holmgren knows it.
Maybe they dont, but that would be best course of action. Since they have nothing to lose , might as well bluff Holmgren, works or not.

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07-22-2012, 02:15 PM
  #148
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What Philly station released what exactly? The only thing I saw was the tweet from a banned source re-tweeted by Eskin.

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07-22-2012, 02:17 PM
  #149
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Has any one from the NHL commented on the 'spirit of the CBA'?

That was the big hub bub when Kovalchuk signed....i really don't see how this offersheet or Suter and Parise's contracts are compliant with the spirit of the CBA.

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07-22-2012, 02:17 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
No, they were given the "financial resources" to resign Weber and Suter. But, notice how Suter signed with Minnesota and Weber signed an offer sheet with Philadelphia?

The "financial resources" the Predators have cannot match what the other teams were offering all around. "Financial resources" were the same reason the Predators elected to take Weber to arbitration last year (offering him under $5 million in the process).

The Predators were HOPING they could resign all three of Rinne, Suter and Weber to deals that were fair for the player and fair for the PREDATORS. What turned us is that the MARKET for Suter and Weber was a lot more intense than the Predators even imagined, especially in terms of signing bonuses and length of contract.

So, yes, the Predators were given "financial resources" to sign Suter and Weber IF the deals made financial sense for the ownership group and team long-term.... NOT the monster, over-the-top, mega-market deals that they signed.

Big difference here.

It's like walking into a car dealership with $1,000 in hard cash to put down on a car and knowing you can take on a monthly payment of $300 a month. When you get to the dealership, you realize the dealer-incentives are over and the car will be significantly more expensive than you planned. You tell the sales manager you can only afford to pay $300 a month so he runs the numbers and comes up with various scenarios. Then he tells you he CAN give you the car for $300 a month BUT you need to put down $5,500 as the down-payment (when you ONLY have $1,000).

This is the exact predicament the Predators are/were in. They have the "$300 a month" but they don't have the "$5,500" down payment. To make matters worse, a potential work-stoppage is the equivalent of a bank telling the potential car buyer, "we'll LOAN you the extra $4,500 down-payment, but the interest rate is 25%, so instead of paying us back $4,500, you will pay us a total of $6,780 over the term."

Sooner or later, you realize that car doesn't look like such a good deal and you live with the fact that, as much as you want it, you just can't afford it.

That is what happened with the Predators. They were hoping to get a "fair" deal on Suter and Weber and didn't expect a couple of teams to totally DRIVE UP THE MARKET to the point where they can't play ball.
We don't know this, as far as we know, what was said tot he media, after Suter signed with Minny, what upset Poile was he was told he would be given a chance to match and he was not given this chance. We do know he raised his initial offer.

Stop stating things as fact when they are not. There is a 50/50 chance Weber will be a Flyer, congrats on that that is better than what my team has 0%. But you have stated very few facts and just a ton of opinion based on things that are not true or wrong, or unknown.

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