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Old
10-17-2012, 05:51 PM
  #226
ReginKarlssonLehner
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I WANT ME SOME ****ING HOCKEY.

IDGAF about anything else.

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10-17-2012, 06:11 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Very briefly, lockouts were the cause of antitrust suits by NFL and NBA players that were under contract, hence they claimed they were denied the opportunity to work.

Collusion cases, like MLB and recently the NFL, have been filed as violations of US Labour Law and not based on Section 1 of the Sherman Act, under antitrust.

In both instances, the courts are being asked to rule on a potential violation of US law. Whether a player can go to Moscow and play isn't relevant.
Thank you for the brief run down. Have to read more about it at some point.

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10-17-2012, 06:13 PM
  #228
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I WANT ME SOME ****ING HOCKEY.

IDGAF about anything else.
So do I, but I also don't want to have to go through these lockout every six years.

So I'd rather they get it done right this time.

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10-17-2012, 06:13 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
I WANT ME SOME ****ING HOCKEY.

IDGAF about anything else.
This even the lower paid nhlers get what would take me over 15 years to make I dun give a fuk about thier loosing cash. Get it done.

I pay for jerseys season tickets and other **** NHL players come to my work even rookies have it better in life than 90% of the general population. I have no sympathy give the players 120,000 a year each and they still have it good IMO.

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10-17-2012, 06:20 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by BK201 View Post
This even the lower paid nhlers get what would take me over 15 years to make I dun give a fuk about thier loosing cash. Get it done.

I pay for jerseys season tickets and other **** NHL players come to my work even rookies have it better in life than 90% of the general population. I have no sympathy give the players 120,000 a year each and they still have it good IMO.
I understand this argument but if you was part of the reason your company was making so much money you wouldn't stand for minimum pay.

Of course these players are not making minimum salary and while this is a billion dollar business you would definitely deserve a good cut of the cake, but in the end you would think the business investing in the product and supporting your payroll would profit significantly more than you.

Not quite sure how the players ever got 57%, while they are the product they are not the ones sacrificing their money. 50% is what it should be all along.

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10-17-2012, 06:20 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by BK201 View Post
This even the lower paid nhlers get what would take me over 15 years to make I dun give a fuk about thier loosing cash. Get it done.

I pay for jerseys season tickets and other **** NHL players come to my work even rookies have it better in life than 90% of the general population. I have no sympathy give the players 120,000 a year each and they still have it good IMO.
good luck with this!!

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10-17-2012, 06:23 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
For example, the salary cap is anti-competitive conduct by definition, yet is not subject to anti-trust law because it was legally agreed to by both parties.

There are many examples that disprove what you are suggesting re: professional sports and the law.
Sorry, I posted that late at night (for me) and have been asleep since: I did mean to say that pro sports are exempt from many laws because they have collectively bargained those clauses into the system. So yeah, I agree on that point. However, just because they agreed to the rules that they conduct their business under, doesn't mean that those set of rules aren't highly unique (the major pro sports leagues, that is).

Another example would be that if the NHL were run line other industries, the Toronto Maple Leafs and the New Your Rangers would have acquired the Florida Panthers and Phoenix Coyotes YEARS ago, and either amalgamated them into their own operations or close them down after selling off the assets. But this CAN'T ever happen, mostly due to the fact that the owners have agreed to the standard league operating policies which expressly forbid it. Again, just because they have agreed to the rules they play under doesn't make those rules highly unique.

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10-17-2012, 06:33 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Compare the salaries (not gross income) of the top 1% of employees in all professions and I submit team professional sports is not at or near the top of the list.
I'd love to see the numbers, as I have my doubts.

Do you have them?

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10-17-2012, 06:37 PM
  #234
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Gotta love the assumption put forth that Fehr "does his thing" and players follow like lemmings.
I never claimed that to be the case, either.

I never assumed anything: I presented it as a worst-case scenario... A scenario in which I think we can all agree would indeed be the worst-case scenario (barring some tragically unforeseen exaggerated hypothetical scenario, like Donald Fehr stabbing Bill Daly in a parking lot in a heated argument over HRR).

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10-17-2012, 06:50 PM
  #235
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I understand this argument but if you was part of the reason your company was making so much money you wouldn't stand for minimum pay.

Of course these players are not making minimum salary and while this is a billion dollar business you would definitely deserve a good cut of the cake, but in the end you would think the business investing in the product and supporting your payroll would profit significantly more than you.

Not quite sure how the players ever got 57%, while they are the product they are not the ones sacrificing their money. 50% is what it should be all along.
While I don't know for sure, I can only imagine the players got 57% because the NHL never accurately forecast their future business. Of course it could be easily argued the 57% was the owners concession for the 24% rollback and cap system. Personally I believe it was the former.

Regardless of the reasons, the players now have it and the league needs to find the right solution for change. Remember the NHL are the people that gave the 57% to the players, just like they have handed out ridiculous player contracts... same people.

FYI not sure the owners are sacrificing their money, many of the owners borrowed the money to buy the team using the franchise as collateral to make the loans. If the NHL went out of business tomorrow, most of the owners wouldn't see a significant change in their lifestyle.


Last edited by Holdurbreathe: 10-17-2012 at 07:04 PM.
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Old
10-17-2012, 06:51 PM
  #236
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To anyone interested, Canada vs USA Olympic replay is on TSN2 right now

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10-17-2012, 07:00 PM
  #237
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To anyone interested, Canada vs USA Olympic replay is on TSN2 right now
Toews just scored... We have a chance!!!!!

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10-17-2012, 07:02 PM
  #238
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I never claimed that to be the case, either.

I never assumed anything: I presented it as a worst-case scenario... A scenario in which I think we can all agree would indeed be the worst-case scenario (barring some tragically unforeseen exaggerated hypothetical scenario, like Donald Fehr stabbing Bill Daly in a parking lot in a heated argument over HRR).
Well in your hypothetical worst case senario, can I exchange Bettman for Daly.

IMO Fehr will presents what the offer means to the players in detail. If the players are willing to take a 12% salary reduction, 5 year max contracts, change in free agency, etc, etc and a promise to get paid later then the NHL will have a deal.

However I wouldn't bet my house the players are going to accept it, and to blame the messenger (Fehr) is just naive.

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10-17-2012, 07:22 PM
  #239
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I sure hope the players override Fehr if he tries to play tough with this offer.

For the players is there really a salary reduction if present contracts are fully secured? More money may be held back but in the end at the worse won't the full amount be paid shortly after their current contract ends. Future deals may be slightly impacted but if the NHL grows that won't matter. Good players will always get fair dollars even if they have to change club. Why should the current crop of players with a really short shelf life really care about future contracts. There are plenty of Daugavin types who may not even see another NHL contract after this year or the next.

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Old
10-17-2012, 07:23 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Well in your hypothetical worst case senario, can I exchange Bettman for Daly.
Agreed, though I was presenting a worst-case scenario for the Players response to the League's offer, so I doubt Bettman would be the one recommending that the players refuse the owners proposal.

Or did you mean the "Fehr stabbing Daly" exaggerated scenario? I agree there's an equal chance of Daly stabbing Fehr, I suppose. It's a 50/50 shot .


Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
IMO Fehr will presents what the offer means to the players in detail. If the players are willing to take a 12% salary reduction, 5 year max contracts, change in free agency, etc, etc and a promise to get paid later then the NHL will have a deal.

However I wouldn't bet my house the players are going to accept it, and to blame the messenger (Fehr) is just naive.
I respectfully disagree. If you think that Fehr is "just the messenger", then why did the PA fire Paul Kelly? Kelly was the definition of "just the messenger", and the PA canned him in glorious fashion. Fehr i the lead negotiator, as well as the chief tactician of the PA's negotiation tactics. To think of Fehr as simply the mouthpiece, as just the messanger of the players, is to deny Fehr a ton of credit of the job he's been hired to perform. I don't think it's unreasonable at all to suggest that many in the PA trust Fehr's track-record of successful player negotiation in MLB, and are agreeing to follow his methods and tactics of negotiation in good faith that they will bring positive results.

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10-17-2012, 07:25 PM
  #241
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good luck with this!!
i think you missed the point it's that while they are arguing for their money they will still make a **** ton of cash, more than anyone on here ever will thats for sure, and the only real people suffering in all this are the fans and let me tell you neither side really cares what we think.

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10-17-2012, 09:50 PM
  #242
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I'd love to see the numbers, as I have my doubts.

Do you have them?
I don't have the numbers at hand, but if you were to look at the salaries of CEOs and executives in most industries they earn huge dollars.

People at the top of any industry pyramid (top 1- 2% of a corporation) out earn most professional sports players, with a significantly longer career span.

My statement is based on the fact I consider NHL players as the top 1-2% of all hockey players in the world, thus it is understandable they would earn salaries commensurate with that standing.

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10-17-2012, 10:05 PM
  #243
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Can someone explain to me how the revenue sharing works? Is player salary (despite what they are signed for) determined by how much revenue is generated league wide? A run down would be much appreciated.

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10-17-2012, 10:15 PM
  #244
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i think you missed the point it's that while they are arguing for their money they will still make a **** ton of cash, more than anyone on here ever will thats for sure, and the only real people suffering in all this are the fans and let me tell you neither side really cares what we think.
I didn't miss your point at all.

I just disagree with the notion that any comparison of salaries between Joe Average and Sidney Crosby, for example, has any relevance.

While I agree Average Fan is missing his/her hockey fix and want a signed CBA yesterday, fans don't have to deal with the consequences of signing a bad CBA.

If the NHL was making these take back proposals to lower the cost of tickets, concessions or other NHL merchandize, then I could understand fans getting behind the league, but that is not the case.

Regardless of final outcome, we the fans will continue to pay whatever the market will bear.... fundamental of business.

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10-17-2012, 11:00 PM
  #245
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I respectfully disagree. If you think that Fehr is "just the messenger", then why did the PA fire Paul Kelly? Kelly was the definition of "just the messenger", and the PA canned him in glorious fashion. Fehr i the lead negotiator, as well as the chief tactician of the PA's negotiation tactics. To think of Fehr as simply the mouthpiece, as just the messanger of the players, is to deny Fehr a ton of credit of the job he's been hired to perform. I don't think it's unreasonable at all to suggest that many in the PA trust Fehr's track-record of successful player negotiation in MLB, and are agreeing to follow his methods and tactics of negotiation in good faith that they will bring positive results.
I do agree Fehr is definitely advising the players in his capacity, but he is not acting autonomously as some seem to suggest or think.

So while I shouldn't have implied Fehr is just a messenger, it would be equally wrong to suggest the players are just followers.

IMO Fehr's success over the years has been due to his ability to communicate in an effective manner with the players, making for informed constituents. Present and past players have nothing but praise for the work he does for them and on their behalf.

Information is power and Fehr ensures the players not only get information but understand it and what it means to them. Fehr consults, seeks concensus, then acts. Nowhere have I ever heard or read that Fehr has acted or spoke on behalf of the players without prior consultation.

IMO Donald Fehr isn't in any way responsible for the current state of NHL hockey, it is the owners. IMO Donald Fehr isn't the voice rejecting the CBA proposals, it is the players.

If Donald Fehr is responsible for anything, it is he does his job extremely well. People tend to make different decisions when they clearly understand the issues and ramifications.

I realize many will disagree with my views, so be it.

For me it is simple, how much the players make or how wealthy the owners may be, isn't an issue. IMO it isn't about hockey or which side cares or doesn't care about the fans. What it is about fairness, something the players are now demanding.

So far, no proposal made by the NHL has been fair, it has been all take and no give, that won't get it done.


Last edited by Holdurbreathe: 10-17-2012 at 11:06 PM.
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10-17-2012, 11:31 PM
  #246
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Good post, I definitely agree. Though I don't think there is fairness. Both sides are demanding a certain amount of money, and whichever side budges moves things forward. They'll come to an agreement when both sides are happy, whether it's fair or not.
At the very least, each time the NHL gives up more money, a portion of players in the NHLPA will vote to accept the proposals. I wonder if there would be inner conflict as not all players are the same.

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10-18-2012, 05:47 AM
  #247
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Originally Posted by BK201 View Post
i think you missed the point it's that while they are arguing for their money they will still make a **** ton of cash, more than anyone on here ever will thats for sure, and the only real people suffering in all this are the fans and let me tell you neither side really cares what we think.

...and the "suffering" fans who buy tickets are better off financially than 95% of the people on the planet. I'm sure some kid spending his days picking through city landfills in Rio in an attempt to put a little bit of food in his belly really sympathizes with your pain.

It's all about perspective. There's always going to be someone else higher up that financial mountain, and a whole lot below. In the end, it's just one league of hockey.

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10-18-2012, 06:24 AM
  #248
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Originally Posted by Nac Mac Feegle View Post
...and the "suffering" fans who buy tickets are better off financially than 95% of the people on the planet. I'm sure some kid spending his days picking through city landfills in Rio in an attempt to put a little bit of food in his belly really sympathizes with your pain.

It's all about perspective. There's always going to be someone else higher up that financial mountain, and a whole lot below. In the end, it's just one league of hockey.
Sometimes I believe you guys are really stupid. This has nothing to do with what were talking about.

your taking things to literal i meant suffering as sorta like how the millionaire players are "suffering" after missing their first paycheck whilst chilling out in their mansion...

also to have a ticket package by far does not mean you are in the top 95% of the world


Last edited by BK201: 10-18-2012 at 06:32 AM.
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10-18-2012, 06:29 AM
  #249
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Time for the players to step up:

http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/10/17/...l-labour-talks

There was also continued criticism out there about the owners' opening offer which would have had the two sides switch places on the hockey-related revenue split. It was deemed entirely offensive by the players that they should take 43%, which is what the owners had to live on -- as well as pay all the expenses associated with running the game -- for most of the expired CBA.

Again, get over it.

How about the players save their obvious hatred and criticism of Bettman and channel that energy into negotiating?

The league got criticized for putting its offer out there in the public domain, but at least the NHL has crafted something the players and others can tear down. And didn't NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr once say he'd like to see negotiations televised?

We haven't heard anything constructive from the players' side since they made an offer during two days of meetings in New York almost five weeks ago. The NHL crafted a response to that offer in about an hour, I think it was, and since then, there's hasn't been anything but static from the players.

The NHL has now made the past two offers, basically negotiating against itself.

Of course, why should we expect the players to come up with something that moves the process along now?

By doing nothing but sit back and criticize, they've managed to wring another offer out of the NHL.


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10-18-2012, 06:31 AM
  #250
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Originally Posted by Nac Mac Feegle View Post
...and the "suffering" fans who buy tickets are better off financially than 95% of the people on the planet. I'm sure some kid spending his days picking through city landfills in Rio in an attempt to put a little bit of food in his belly really sympathizes with your pain.

It's all about perspective. There's always going to be someone else higher up that financial mountain, and a whole lot below. In the end, it's just one league of hockey.
So you're alright with millionaire's arguing with how much of a slice of a billion dollar industry they get?

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