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Paul Coffey - trades?

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Old
07-24-2012, 02:21 PM
  #26
Dark Shadows
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Coffey and the Oilers in general were well known for playing tighter in big games, you know this -- but you're right that he rarely made plays like this particular one.. and for good reason -- it was amazing.
Certainly, they played tighter games. But Coffey was never anything special defensively is all I am saying. People often quote that one play like it is evidence of his defensive genius, when in fact it was something that almost never happened. Bobby Orr pulled those often, but Coffey did that maybe twice to my recollection.

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And certainly being average in the context of the all time great defensemen is relatively poor -- but also very far from "horrible" as people are describing it in the thread (and every thread regarding Coffey).
Personally, I watched him a lot, and at times, he was dreadful. At his best, defensively, he was average. Yes he was fast and could get back when he hustled. Unlike Housley, he would get chippy in the corners and in front of the net. But he would often play the puck and rarely the man and it would cause him problems.

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Many of whom probably never even saw him play in the 80s or early 90s if at all.

In the end it doesn't change the fact that his overall game still places him among the best defensemen of all time.

He is also one of the most unique players too. So polarizing.
Offensively, he is the 2nd greatest Dman ever to lace them up. Defensively, nobody would remember his name or think of him. His offense being so amazing is what places him around 11th-13th among all time defensemen. His defense is what keeps him from the elite top 10.

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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Citation needed
Not really. That was pretty much how I remembered it.

Bowman was furious with him.

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``He's not one of my favorites,'' said Bowman, referring to Coffey as ``a role player.''

``A guy that can skate like he can, has all that talent, why can't he play defense?'' Bowman asked. ``He's not as good on the power play as people think. The main thing he can do is carry the puck up the ice, but his work at the point isn't that great.''

Bowman also said Coffey, who won three Stanley Cups with Edmonton and a fourth with Pittsburgh, had little impact on the Penguins' championship team.

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07-24-2012, 02:37 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Not really. That was pretty much how I remembered it.

Bowman was furious with him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Times, October 10, 1996
"It's not easy," Bowman said. "I think everybody knows that. Paul's been traded before, and it's unfortunate. Most of the times he's been traded it's not a result of his play on the ice or what he can bring a team. It's mainly his contract." Coffey will earn $2.6 million this season and next, and $2.9 million in 1998-99.

Every goal from that series in which Coffey was on the ice is in this thread. Feel free to watch it and assess blame, rather than relying on your memory from games you haven't seen in 16 years.

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07-24-2012, 02:57 PM
  #28
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And out of all those trades, wasn't Brendan Shanahan the only other "star" player he was ever traded for?

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07-24-2012, 03:11 PM
  #29
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The first trade, iirc, was a money thing. Coffey and Pocklington differed on his value and Coffey took it personally.

The second trade was because Coffey did not buy in to Bowman's attempts to structure the team into a system at all. Don't have a link, but there's an interview from a couple years ago where Coffey just goes off on how much he hates coach's tendencies to enforce structure and systems on the game of hockey.

Not sure why LA traded him, but they had a young Rob Blake, Darryl Sydor and Alex Zhitnik, so, in all likelihood, they didn't need him.

Leaving Detroit and all subsequent trades were a case where Coffey's name (and salary) was bigger than his contributions at that point in his career.

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07-24-2012, 03:14 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Every goal from that series in which Coffey was on the ice is in this thread. Feel free to watch it and assess blame, rather than relying on your memory from games you haven't seen in 16 years.
Why are we focusing only on that series? Or when goals were scored? Not all of Coffey's blunders translated into goals for the other team, but they often shifted momentum and altered the flow of the game.

Granted I do not have a perfect memory, but I remember Coffey was being criticized quite a bit at the time and nobody being surprised when he was finally shipped out from the wings.

The first game was not a shot "banked" off Coffey. He actually swiped it in for an own goal. Granted he only had a split second to react so it was instinctual. The problem started because Coffey was with the other 3 forwards just past center ice not having yet gained the zone(Actually, the clip is short, but it seems Colorado already had control of the puck so the wings were not going to gain the zone anyways), with 2 Avs players behind him poised for a 2 on 1 against his defensive partner.

The one where you say Ricci outmuscles Coffey made me laugh. Coffey skated in front of him, put his hand on his chest and literally did nothing. Ricci had full use of his hands and his stick was not even being attempted to be tied up by Coffey's stick. He did not use muscle at all. He glided with Coffey's hand on his chest(Ricci was not even using his legs to skate, he was just gliding)

I actually have 2 full games from this series if you would like to see them. Ill look into uploading them in my vintage games/clips thread which is stickied in this section.


Last edited by Dark Shadows: 07-24-2012 at 03:21 PM.
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07-24-2012, 03:31 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
That play is an anomaly for Coffey, who rarely did things like that.

Granted we have argued over him before. He wasn't Phil Housley bad on Defense, but he was also no better than average
Which part of the play do you mean? Because Coffey was always able to counter and catch the other team flat footed. Perhaps he didn't break up a million two on ones if that is what you mean but he had the ability to do that entire play without hesitation and there are a lot of star defensemen who couldn't make that entire play.

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07-24-2012, 03:38 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Which part of the play do you mean? Because Coffey was always able to counter and catch the other team flat footed. Perhaps he didn't break up a million two on ones if that is what you mean but he had the ability to do that entire play without hesitation and there are a lot of star defensemen who couldn't make that entire play.
Yes, of course. Once Coffey had the puck, he knew exactly what to do and did it better than any Blueliner not named Orr.

His play off the puck is what leaves you wanting.

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07-24-2012, 03:39 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Chukcha View Post
Put Mike Green on Gretzky team and he will be another Coffey. Without Gretzky Coffey would become another Mike Green. I mean the monstrous Gretzky play had made invisible all teammates weak sides.
This is laughable. The year after Gretzky was traded, who won the cup? The answer is the Oilers. How any cups did Gretzky win after leaving the Oilers. The answer is 0.

It was the Oilers who made Gretzy as much as Gretzky made the Oilers.

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07-24-2012, 03:47 PM
  #34
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He was a Hall of Famer who you could trade away and make your team better for it. He did win a lot of Cups but keep in mind Edmonton, Pittsburgh, and Detroit all won the Cup shortly after trading Coffee away.

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07-24-2012, 03:49 PM
  #35
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This is laughable. The year after Gretzky was traded, who won the cup? The answer is the Oilers. How any cups did Gretzky win after leaving the Oilers. The answer is 0.

It was the Oilers who made Gretzy as much as Gretzky made the Oilers.
They won 4 out of 5 with Gretzky and then 1 Cup after Gretzky. Let's not sell Gretzky short here. You think the Kings would have ever made the Cup Finals without Gretzky? Remember in 89 when Gretzky lead the Kings past the Oilers. The Oilers would have kept winning Cups up through 1994 (when the Rangers won with a bunch of ex-Oilers) if Gretzky stayed. In the documentary "King's Ransom" Gretzky thought the Oilers could have won 4 more possibly, I think 5 or 6 is even more likely.

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07-24-2012, 03:51 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Yes, of course. Once Coffey had the puck, he knew exactly what to do and did it better than any Blueliner not named Orr.

His play off the puck is what leaves you wanting.
In a game in January I see what you mean. If it was a tight game in the 1987 Canada Cup or where the Oilers were playing then Coffey could clamp down.

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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
He was a Hall of Famer who you could trade away and make your team better for it. He did win a lot of Cups but keep in mind Edmonton, Pittsburgh, and Detroit all won the Cup shortly after trading Coffee away.
But would Edmonton 1988, Pittsburgh 1992 and Detroit 1997 have lost with Coffey on their team? Only Detroit didn't win with Coffey and they still had two very long runs with him.

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07-24-2012, 04:06 PM
  #37
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one of the best


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07-24-2012, 04:51 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Every goal from that series in which Coffey was on the ice is in this thread. Feel free to watch it and assess blame, rather than relying on your memory from games you haven't seen in 16 years.
Feel free to believe that highlight reels tells the whole story. Watch the whole series and you will see how dreadful he were. I think he blocked one shot(!).

He was actually to blame for that whole playoffs. His off-ice problems with Bowman didn't help.

Quote:
``He's not one of my favorites,'' Bowman had said of Coffey. ``He didn't win the Cup in Pittsburgh [in 1991]; Mario [Lemieux] won it. A guy that can skate like he can, has all that talent, why can't he play defense?''

Bowman went on to call the three-time Norris Trophy winner ``a role player.'' Bowman said the St. Louis Blues were able to reduce Coffey's offensive effectiveness in the 1996 playoffs with physical play. ``He got really upset,'' Bowman said. ``It threw him off his game.''
Please watch the whole series and get back to me.

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07-24-2012, 04:55 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Granted I do not have a perfect memory, but I remember Coffey was being criticized quite a bit at the time and nobody being surprised when he was finally shipped out from the wings.
Coffey shared the blame, along with Primeau and Ciccarelli for the Colorado series. He may have been the best Red Wing in that series (because he scored 3 goals and caused 4 against?), but that isn't exactly a high bar to clear.

The thing I remember most about Coffey as a Red Wing, was the timing of his gaffes. Yes, he scored 2 goals in Game 1, but also had an own-goal...in a game decided by 1 goal. Later in the series, he scores a goal and then causes two more... in an elimination game.

We should also look at the other choke jobs he was involved in to get a reference for why he is maligned among some Red Wing fans. Just watch Game 2 vs. New Jersey. The Devils scored 3 goals and here is how Coffey played each of them:

1) Coffey is caught up ice, causing a 3-on-1 break for the Devils and they promptly score. This was minutes after the Red Wings scored.
2) Coffey doesn't play Niedermayer very well 1-on-1, and Niedermayer gets by him and sticks his shot that banked off the glass into the net to tie the game.
3) With less than 2 minutes in regulation, in a tie game, Coffey blocks a shot and then lies down on the ice for about 15 seconds while play continues, and the Devils score the winner in, what is essentially a 5-on-4 situation.

That was a pretty important game!

The perceived unclutchness of mid-90s Coffey was punctuated when he was replaced by Larry Murphy, who went on to have a dominant +15 (or whatever it was) performance in the finals in 1997.

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07-24-2012, 05:04 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by RocketCityRocker View Post
Coffey shared the blame, along with Primeau and Ciccarelli for the Colorado series. He may have been the best Red Wing in that series (because he scored 3 goals and caused 4 against?), but that isn't exactly a high bar to clear.

The thing I remember most about Coffey as a Red Wing, was the timing of his gaffes. Yes, he scored 2 goals in Game 1, but also had an own-goal...in a game decided by 1 goal. Later in the series, he scores a goal and then causes two more... in an elimination game.

We should also look at the other choke jobs he was involved in to get a reference for why he is maligned among some Red Wing fans. Just watch Game 2 vs. New Jersey. The Devils scored 3 goals and here is how Coffey played each of them:

1) Coffey is caught up ice, causing a 3-on-1 break for the Devils and they promptly score. This was minutes after the Red Wings scored.
2) Coffey doesn't play Niedermayer very well 1-on-1, and Niedermayer gets by him and sticks his shot that banked off the glass into the net to tie the game.
3) With less than 2 minutes in regulation, in a tie game, Coffey blocks a shot and then lies down on the ice for about 15 seconds while play continues, and the Devils score the winner in, what is essentially a 5-on-4 situation.

That was a pretty important game!

The perceived unclutchness of mid-90s Coffey was punctuated when he was replaced by Larry Murphy, who went on to have a dominant +15 (or whatever it was) performance in the finals in 1997.
That own goal was caused by him being up past center ice with the other 3 forwards while 2 Colorado players were already behind him on a 2 on 1(Detroit on the PP, but without puck possession). That was kind of the norm for Coffey, taking risks to try to create offense. Yes he had the speed to get back, but ultimately the risks he took came back on the other end of the ice a lot.


Last edited by Dark Shadows: 07-25-2012 at 02:10 PM.
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07-24-2012, 06:24 PM
  #41
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This is laughable. The year after Gretzky was traded, who won the cup? The answer is the Oilers. How any cups did Gretzky win after leaving the Oilers. The answer is 0.

It was the Oilers who made Gretzy as much as Gretzky made the Oilers.
Your time table is off. Gretzky's last season as an Oiler was 1987-88. As a King, he was credited with almost singlehandedly beating the Oilers in the first round of the 1989 playoffs. Oilers rebounded and won the 1990 Cup

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07-24-2012, 08:05 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Why are we focusing only on that series?
Because Sentinel brought up that series specifically.

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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows
I actually have 2 full games from this series if you would like to see them.
I have all six on VHS, thank you.

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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
He was actually to blame for that whole playoffs.
*groan*

Really? 5 points in 4 games, and less directly at fault for goals than his defensive partner? He's to blame.

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Originally Posted by Hobnobs
Please watch the whole series and get back to me.
Says the person who stated that Coffey caused more goals against than goals for - hence me posting EVERY GOAL. The video is there; prove it. You've demonstrated zero knowledge about the series. At the very least, I know that Dark Shadows watched the thing.

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07-24-2012, 08:08 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by RocketCityRocker View Post
Yes, he scored 2 goals in Game 1, but also had an own-goal...in a game decided by 1 goal.
So that means that he helped more than he hurt, yes? Had it not hit him, Yelle (Keane?) buries it anyway. And remind me, who scored the tying goal right after? Hell, which other Red Wings scored in that game?

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07-24-2012, 08:50 PM
  #44
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In an era where offensive defense men would routinely score over 75 points, what's giving up another 20 or 30 to get some quality physical and defensive players in return to round out your team? As skilled as he was, his value is often over valued because of the era he played in and his one dimensional presence. If he had played in the current era, he might never had been traded.

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07-24-2012, 10:35 PM
  #45
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So that means that he helped more than he hurt, yes? Had it not hit him, Yelle (Keane?) buries it anyway. And remind me, who scored the tying goal right after? Hell, which other Red Wings scored in that game?
Sweet logic. Keane was going to score anyways, so might as well just put the puck in myself.

I personally would not be too proud of a game in which I scored 2 goals and was also on the ice for 2 against, one of which I directly caused, and we ended up losing the game.

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07-24-2012, 10:54 PM
  #46
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Sweet logic. Keane was going to score anyways, so might as well just put the puck in myself.

I personally would not be too proud of a game in which I scored 2 goals and was also on the ice for 2 against, one of which I directly caused, and we ended up losing the game.
Well, you lost a playoff game, so I can't imagine you would be proud, but that doesn't mean that you were the cause of more GA than GF or the reason the team lost... which were the statements made that started all of this.

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07-25-2012, 05:01 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by RocketCityRocker View Post
Sweet logic. Keane was going to score anyways, so might as well just put the puck in myself.

I personally would not be too proud of a game in which I scored 2 goals and was also on the ice for 2 against, one of which I directly caused, and we ended up losing the game.
He wasn't happy when that goal went in. The competitor Coffey was you can see it in the replay.

But really, 1996 was Coffey's last good year. After that it almost seemed as if he lost his passion, or just had age and burnout catch up to him. He really shouldn't be judged by a 1996 series near the end of his career. He was still a go to guy - if not "the" go to defenseman for Canada at the 1996 World Cup. Coffey was still considered a very good player then. Finished 5th in Norris voting in 1996.

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Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
In an era where offensive defense men would routinely score over 75 points, what's giving up another 20 or 30 to get some quality physical and defensive players in return to round out your team? As skilled as he was, his value is often over valued because of the era he played in and his one dimensional presence. If he had played in the current era, he might never had been traded.
The last sentence, what do you mean by that?

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07-25-2012, 05:08 PM
  #48
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He wasn't happy when that goal went in. The competitor Coffey was you can see it in the replay.
And then he did something about it! He scored to tie the game!

I just don't understand why people would pass the blame onto him for that series. Like... at all. Five of the Red Wings' eight goals with Coffey in the lineup came off of his shot. Honestly, point the finger at anybody else but him and Fedorov.

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07-25-2012, 05:28 PM
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Your time table is off. Gretzky's last season as an Oiler was 1987-88. As a King, he was credited with almost singlehandedly beating the Oilers in the first round of the 1989 playoffs. Oilers rebounded and won the 1990 Cup
Yep. After losing to Gretzky, Edmonton had to make some changes, and so went out to get some more depth. So they traded Jimmy Carson (him again!) to the Wings for Graves, Klima and Murphy. Huge Trade.

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07-25-2012, 05:29 PM
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And then he did something about it! He scored to tie the game!

I just don't understand why people would pass the blame onto him for that series. Like... at all. Five of the Red Wings' eight goals with Coffey in the lineup came off of his shot. Honestly, point the finger at anybody else but him and Fedorov.
The best part of it was, in Coffey's third goal of the game(including the own goal) someone threw a hat on the ice

In fact, I was going to ask if you could upload that game since I only have 2 and you have all of them

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