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EDM/Fla Proposal

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Old
01-07-2005, 04:29 PM
  #1
Chayos
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EDM/Fla Proposal

Having watched Olesz at the WJC this year i really like him as a player and i think he would a big scoring center that the Oil need. The Panthers are absolutly stocked at center already with Jokinen, Horton and Weiss already int he lineup. They could use a top 2 D-man to partner with JayBo and Brewer would fill that spot nicely.

The Cats are also stacked with Offensive D-men which the oil could use as well.

So I propose this deal.

Van ryn and Olesz for Brewer.

Both teams fill Needs and deal from/ positions of strength.

The oil take the risk that olesz is as good as he looks and the Panthers ugrade one of the few positions they are not loaded in!

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01-07-2005, 04:38 PM
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I think the Oilers would take this one, although I think the Panthers would be crazy to make the deal, personally. Mike Van Ryn is a strong young defensemen who could anchor a blueline for years to come, and Olesz is a bluechip prospect. Those are two very big chips to give away for one defensemen. Granted Brewer has played in World Cups and Olympic Tournaments and All Star Games, but Van Ryn has a bright future ahead of him.

I don't think this deal would ever be offered, much less go through. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

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01-07-2005, 04:59 PM
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As a Panther fan, I wouldn't touch this one. As canucklehead17 said, Van Ryn is a solid young player - not a blueline anchor, per se, but certainly the Panthers' leading blueline scorer last season, and likely to continue to be a top d-man. We like Mike, and don't want to move him, especially not as a rider for a promising top prospect that the other team needs.

I don't really want to trade Olesz, either. He was originally billed as a LW, an area the Panthers are very weak in (unless Huselius revives himself, which I kind of doubt - he's just finding it's easier in Sweden). But, if I were going to trade for Brewer, it would be Olesz plus a second or third round pick, and maybe a 6th or 7th rounder in a successive year. Or maybe I'd work out a deal to swap first rounders in the Oils' choice of one of the next two seasons.

But that's only if I'd trade Olesz, which I wouldn't.

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01-07-2005, 05:01 PM
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Van Ryn does not get the credit he deserves and is underrated IMO. The guy is really starting to put it together and I think he would be better known if it wasn't for Jay Bo.

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01-07-2005, 05:27 PM
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But again, same as the last discussion, the Oilers won't move what is probably their best trade chip (or is Smyth? I dunno) unless they're getting a good number one center that isn't overly old. I really would be shocked to see the Oilers trade for another prospect center.

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01-07-2005, 05:38 PM
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I am still a bit wary of moving Brewer as he is our only big minute d-man

But I do think there could be a trade between these teams.

How about something based around Horton?

Horton for Semenov and Hemsky? Might need to even that out a bit...

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01-07-2005, 05:59 PM
  #7
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Value-wise it doesn't look too far off. But, as Edmonton knows more than anyone, Florida really wanted Olesz at the draft, and I don't think they'd let him go this early. So I'm not sure they'd do it (depends how much they'd like Brewer, I guess).

And Edmonton takes quite a risk. It'd be a downgrade on the blue line (Brewer and Van Ryn are pretty much the exact same age), and while they get a hell of a prospect, do they need yet another one?

I don't mind the deal from either side, but I don't know if it would get done.

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01-07-2005, 06:00 PM
  #8
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I'd want the Oilers to do it.

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01-08-2005, 12:58 AM
  #9
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i wouldn't like the move

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01-08-2005, 02:24 AM
  #10
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I would _not_ do this from a Panthers perspective.

Mike van Ryn has been extremely underrated and gone without recognition for over a year now, but he's a lethal offensive defenseman with great size and the ability to improve his all-around game under Jacques Martin.

And why would the 'Cats want to move Rostislav Olesz? He's such a great talent, and they just recently drafted him as well. It'd be rather foolish to give up on him so early.

Florida needs to keep their incredible young forwards(Jokinen, Weiss, Horton, Stewart, Huselius, Olesz, Kolnik, etc.), keep their star goaltender, keep their young D(Bouwmeester, van Ryn, Krajicek, Mezei, Biron, Kudroc, etc.) and just tinker a bit over time. Add one more bona-fide top tier D-man either through next year's draft or by moving some expendable pieces later on, but no need to change anything now.

Florida can have a scary good team in the next 3-4 years if they just stay the course.

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01-08-2005, 10:01 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark
But I do think there could be a trade between these teams.

How about something based around Horton?
No, no, no - do you not know what's been the Panthers' problem the past few seasons (aside from inexperience)? Lack of physical players - that's why Horton is off the table, and it'd take a bit to pry players like Kolnik and Stewart out of their hands. You're more likely to get Weiss and even J. Bo., but they won't come cheap (Weiss won't really get top dollar, but a good #1-2 d-man is reasonable, with a mid draft pick tossed in with Weiss for balancing).

But, Florida doesn't want to subtract right now, it wants to add. Keenan just cleaned house through trades last season and by not resigning a bunch of players - I think he's looking to the UFA market, not to trades right now.

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01-08-2005, 01:15 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark
I am still a bit wary of moving Brewer as he is our only big minute d-man

But I do think there could be a trade between these teams.

How about something based around Horton?

Horton for Semenov and Hemsky? Might need to even that out a bit...

:lol

Hell NO. Horton is what we need, a guy with all star potnetial, very good scorer and very physical. If we trade Horton, which we should never do, we would want a guy in return who had all star potential. Hemsky and Semenov don't have that. If you changed Semenov for Brewer i still wouldn't do it.

As for trading Olesz, again No. There'd be no point in drafting him if we trade 6months later. Panthers were very high on him. Van Ryn is also underated. Sure i don't think he his a top pairing guy on good teams but he is good offensively and defensively. We have got J-bo. We Don't need Brewer we need a nasty big d-man say like Phanuef.

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01-08-2005, 01:22 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chayos1
Having watched Olesz at the WJC this year i really like him as a player and i think he would a big scoring center that the Oil need. The Panthers are absolutly stocked at center already with Jokinen, Horton and Weiss already int he lineup. They could use a top 2 D-man to partner with JayBo and Brewer would fill that spot nicely.

The Cats are also stacked with Offensive D-men which the oil could use as well.

So I propose this deal.

Van ryn and Olesz for Brewer.

Both teams fill Needs and deal from/ positions of strength.

The oil take the risk that olesz is as good as he looks and the Panthers ugrade one of the few positions they are not loaded in!
Not another one.

No way I'd do this, but I'm also biased with Olesz. Plus VanRyn actually hits and we need him. If Tuma and Mezei and Swanson and Uchevatov reach their potential, then maybe deal VanRyn, but NO way would I deal Olesz at all because he and Horton are the only 2 with true 1rst line potential/superstar max upsides. Not that they'll reach it, but they both have it which Stewart doesn't and Weiss doesn't.

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01-08-2005, 01:34 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanthersRule
Not another one.

No way I'd do this, but I'm also biased with Olesz. Plus VanRyn actually hits and we need him. If Tuma and Mezei and Swanson and Uchevatov reach their potential, then maybe deal VanRyn, but NO way would I deal Olesz at all because he and Horton are the only 2 with true 1rst line potential/superstar max upsides. Not that they'll reach it, but they both have it which Stewart doesn't and Weiss doesn't.
Disagree. Weiss and Stewart do have it. Weiss will replace Jokinen one day. Stewart has top end potential as well though there is a massive doubt there. Van Ryn will be traded in two years. I can't see Van Ryn being at Florida longs as we have pherhaps the best offensive d-man prospect around in Krajicek and another good offensive guy in Novak. J-Bo is also kinda offensive so having 4 offensive d-men isn't needed.

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01-08-2005, 01:38 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J17ster
:lol

Hell NO. Horton is what we need, a guy with all star potnetial, very good scorer and very physical. If we trade Horton, which we should never do, we would want a guy in return who had all star potential. Hemsky and Semenov don't have that. If you changed Semenov for Brewer i still wouldn't do it.

As for trading Olesz, again No. There'd be no point in drafting him if we trade 6months later. Panthers were very high on him. Van Ryn is also underated. Sure i don't think he his a top pairing guy on good teams but he is good offensively and defensively. We have got J-bo. We Don't need Brewer we need a nasty big d-man say like Phanuef.
What are you talking about??? Hemsky has all star potential and Semenov has top 2 or 3 potential. These are not toss away players. I offered up some good stuff for Horton. Maybe you just don't know anything about Oilers players?

And as for your other points. "There'd be no point in drafting him if we trade 6months later" ???? Um what? Of course there was a point. so that you could draft him, have his value go up after a solid WJC and trade him for what you actually need. And Brewer is bigger then Phaneuf, and also is a physical player who can really skate.

Seriously bud, do some research first..

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01-08-2005, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark
What are you talking about??? Hemsky has all star potential and Semenov has top 2 or 3 potential. These are not toss away players. I offered up some good stuff for Horton. Maybe you just don't know anything about Oilers players?

And as for your other points. "There'd be no point in drafting him if we trade 6months later" ???? Um what? Of course there was a point. so that you could draft him, have his value go up after a solid WJC and trade him for what you actually need. And Brewer is bigger then Phaneuf, and also is a physical player who can really skate.

Seriously bud, do some research first..
Olesz was concensus no. 2 a year before the draft. Olesz is what we need. How would we know his stock would rise and he'd have a good Wjs. If he sucked in the Wj then his value would be lower. Brewer is a great player but why the **** would you trade a guy who you have JUST drafted who has very high upsides. Name a team that has traded a guy who they drafted very highly 6 months.

Hemsky is gonna be good. Great player but he aient in Hortons league. Semenov is a solid player but Horton is the NEXT POWERFOWARD. Horton would have scored more points than Hemsky if he hadn't been injured cis he was gettin very hot just before his injury. And Horton is 2yrs younger, a rookie at 18 which Hemsky didn't do, Horton played on a crappy team and he plays physically. Horton is on par with Hemsky and more valuable than Semenov and thats not considering Hortons upsides.

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01-08-2005, 02:06 PM
  #17
s7ark
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Originally Posted by J17ster
Olesz was concensus no. 2 a year before the draft. Olesz is what we need. How would we know his stock would rise and he'd have a good Wjs. If he sucked in the Wj then his value would be lower. Brewer is a great player but why the **** would you trade a guy who you have JUST drafted who has very high upsides. Name a team that has traded a guy who they drafted very highly 6 months.

Hemsky is gonna be good. Great player but he aient in Hortons league. Semenov is a solid player but Horton is the NEXT POWERFOWARD. Horton would have scored more points than Hemsky if he hadn't been injured cis he was gettin very hot just before his injury. And Horton is 2yrs younger, a rookie at 18 which Hemsky didn't do, Horton played on a crappy team and he plays physically. Horton is on par with Hemsky and more valuable than Semenov and thats not considering Hortons upsides.
Off the top of my head, the flyers traded Forsberg as a part of the Lindros deal, does that count? It doesn't matter when you draft someone, if someone offers you the player(s) you are looking for then you make the move, even if you drafted the guy an hour ago. It comes down to, does the package offered fit better with your team then what you'd give away?

I agree that Horton is more valuable then Hemsky or Semenov, hence why I offered both. My rational is that with Jokinen, Weiss and Olesz you have a log jam already for the top 2 C positions. And that doesn't even include Horton.

but if you really don't like it, cool. It was just an offer that I thought was pretty good. I think a huge problem with making proposals is that we value the potential of players so much on HF that it overshines actualy accomplishments by the players. But I figured with 2 highly talented prospects like Hemsky and Semenov it would at least garner some interest. Rarely are a potential top line RW and top 2/3 Dman that are both under 24 offered up. They would command a sizeable return, hence why I thought Horton.

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01-08-2005, 02:14 PM
  #18
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Originally Posted by s7ark
Off the top of my head, the flyers traded Forsberg as a part of the Lindros deal, does that count? It doesn't matter when you draft someone, if someone offers you the player(s) you are looking for then you make the move, even if you drafted the guy an hour ago.
We all know how well that deal worked out for the Flyers...

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01-08-2005, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Acadmus
We all know how well that deal worked out for the Flyers...
Bear in mind Lindros was also drafted that year and traded away early as well.

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01-08-2005, 03:04 PM
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Having read all these "knowlegable" posts regarding the value of this prospect and that prospect really makes me laugh. On one hand you can go to the WJC board and the consensis is that Canada WJC championship team would be tooled by any and i repeat any NHL team, yet these high end prospects that Fla has are worth more than a Proven top flight NHl D-man.

I think Fla fans are in for a big wake up call, in the very near future as they have built up a huge stable of top end center prospects, but the reality is only about half of those will turn into top end players. They will never all deve3lop as long as you have to find ice time for them all. The proposal I made gave you a top shelf d-man who has room to grow yet and is proven in brewer for a nice but defintly not top shelf d-man in Van ryn and a great prospect in Olesz.

The one thing you guys have to understand is there is no way you will ever in a million years see a roster with Jokinen, Weiss, horton and Olesz as your top 4 centers, unless one or more of them doesn't develop as promised. A team has to have balance and defensivly aware players in their bottom 6 or they will not succeed. While it a great problem to have in having to many top 6 centers, but it is still a problem.

I would far rather see brewer on my backline as a Fla fan than have a prospect rot on the vine because there is no room for him.

Ott faced the same problem when it came time to trade yashin, as did Quebec when they traded Sundin. You have to fill in pieces you need from assets you have in abundance which for Fla is Centers.

Hey i might be offbase here thinking Fla would want Brewer, but I remeber Jaybo and Brewer excelled as a pair at the world championships and figured you guys would want to build a top 2 defensive pairing.

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01-08-2005, 05:01 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chayos1
I think Fla fans are in for a big wake up call, in the very near future as they have built up a huge stable of top end center prospects, but the reality is only about half of those will turn into top end players. They will never all deve3lop as long as you have to find ice time for them all. .
Half will develop of Horton, Nedorost, Weiss, Olesz, Kreps, Taticek, Campbell, etc...into top end players??? Fine with me.

Horton, Weiss, Olesz, and Stewart will all get icetime. So will Nedorost. I see no reason why every one of those will not get a chance to succeed.

Jokinen, Weiss, Horton, and Olesz as the top 4 centers? Obviously you haven't seen any panthers games. Horton is used almost exclusively as a winger, Olesz plays wing in the Czech league sometimes. JOkinen and Weiss look to be the top 2 centers. Olesz, when he comes over, will IMO get a shot at battling it out with Weiss for the #2 center position. If Olesz loses, he'll play 3rd line center. If Weiss does, he'll either be traded or play wing or maybe even 3rd line center.

BTW J17ster, Weiss is eventually going to replace Jokinen? OJ is 26. He won't be dealt with Keenan as the GM which may be for a very long time. No one is replacing Jokinen. OMG on these boards, people are so fascinated with prospects that they forget about the real stars on the team. JOKINEN IS ONLY 26!!!!! Just turned 26 actually I think. Players reach their prime around 26-30. Jokinen will stay in FLA for a long long time as well because he's a leader. Jokinen is AS much a part of our future as Bouwmeester or any other top young player. Jokinen is the core guy. Just because he's not a prospect and we have young centers, people are like OH YEAH, HE'LL REPLACE JOKINEN AS #1 someday. Jokinen is a PROVEN #1. WEiss is not. Horton is not and won't ever be a center, Olesz is not, Stewart is not Kreps is not etc....... I think it's because FLA's usually so young that if you're 26, that's like past your prime close to retirement age compared to the rest of the team. JOKINEN is staying in FLA and for good reason.

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01-08-2005, 05:04 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chayos1
Bear in mind Lindros was also drafted that year and traded away early as well.
Uh, that's kinda because he wouldn't play for Quebec. If you have a holdout prospect and you're gonna trade him, you're almost 100% going to get back for him with the team you trade with, their first round pick from the same draft as it was Forsberg, and other players pending on how good he is. Lindros is an exception. You see it a lot in the NBA where guys get traded after getting drafted 1rst round (Jameer Nelson, etc......), but not in the NHL. Trading Olesz would be the dumbest thing the panthers could EVER do. Of all the prospects Olesz is the last one to trade right now.

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01-08-2005, 08:21 PM
  #23
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It seems to me that most posters on HF boards overrate the value of prospects. The Panther posters want to shoot down every proposal, but the numbers don't really compute. The Panthers will need to choose which horses they're going to ride at the centre position and are better off dealing the ones they're not sure of than letting them waste away. Moving Horton to the wing permanently will help, but even with that move they still probably need to move a body. Perhaps the better question is - Who is the centre the Panthers are least likely to retain beyond the end of the next NHL season?

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01-08-2005, 09:55 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by RiversQ
It seems to me that most posters on HF boards overrate the value of prospects. The Panther posters want to shoot down every proposal, but the numbers don't really compute. The Panthers will need to choose which horses they're going to ride at the centre position and are better off dealing the ones they're not sure of than letting them waste away. Moving Horton to the wing permanently will help, but even with that move they still probably need to move a body. Perhaps the better question is - Who is the centre the Panthers are least likely to retain beyond the end of the next NHL season?
Yeah, when we have no idea how Olesz is gonna turn out or maybe even Weiss.

FLA will stick with the young guns. Jokinen, Horton, Stewart, Nedorost, Weiss, Olesz, Bouwmeester, Krajicek, Luongo etc... are essentially untouchable.

Least likely to retain beyond the end of next season?? Kinda hard to PREDICT that one when Olesz has never played an NHL game and Weiss still has much to prove. I think FLA's approach is to keep the youth and get free agents mixed in. No reason to trade Olesz Weiss or Jokinen just because of 3 good players. Weiss is a solid #2. Jokinen a great #1. Olesz CAN play wing. If all 3 are superstars, FLA will not trade them for the sake of trading them because of 3. they will accomodate them.

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01-08-2005, 11:41 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by J17ster
Olesz was concensus no. 2 a year before the draft. O
Can you prove that?

And if you can.. who cares?

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