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Luongo XXV - *Important Mod Warning #15*

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07-25-2012, 12:33 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by JackJ View Post
True IF Burke actually believes Reimer is the guy.
Bottom line is this, like any other material asset, if the price is right you buy it. If the price is to high in your opinion, you stick with what you have,or find something cheaper. If Burke thinks the asking price on Luongo is to high, nothing is going to make him pay.

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07-25-2012, 12:45 PM
  #277
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Bottom line is this, like any other material asset, if the price is right you buy it. If the price is to high in your opinion, you stick with what you have,or find something cheaper. If Burke thinks the asking price on Luongo is to high, nothing is going to make him pay.
What you're willing to pay is dependent on how badly you need it.

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07-25-2012, 12:47 PM
  #278
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I'm not arguing at all. I was responding to a post that said any GM going with young goaltending instead of shelling out for Luongo was "stupid". People in glass houses........
Stop being daft. None of the teams being discussed have anyone close to Schneider's ability or record.

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07-25-2012, 12:57 PM
  #279
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1. You can't compare the previous "Luongo = #1, Schneider = Backup" scenario where you say Luongo was a class act and extend that to a scenario where he is suddenly the back-up. He may be a class guy, but he is also a competitor and I would be A-M-A-Z-E-D if he sat back and accepted this demotion without any sour grapes. I'm amazed at all Canuck fans who say "oh but he's always been a team-first guy" but don't consider that it is easy to be a team-first guy when you are the starter, not so much as the backup.

2. Are the Canucks really that much better off picking up another 6-7 points in the regular season b/c of having a stronger back-up, rather than working on rounding out other weak spots in our line-up - spots that could be worked on presumably by the assets returned for Luongo directly or by freeing up additional cap space to pick up a cap dump any time in the season? The Canucks aren't in any danger of missing playoffs, and while Minnesota will be greatly improved this year, with maybe marginal gains in Edmonton and Colorado, I don't think the Canucks are in any danger of not winning the division either. So these 6-7 points, which come from having an above average back-up, are of little value and actually disappear once playoffs start and most teams generally live or die by their starter. I'd much rather suffer some growing pains with Lack, have 100 points in the standings instead of 107, and move this team forward in other areas, esp. the forward position.

Projecting Luongo to be our back-up next season is a mistake imo.

There is a difference in saying Lu could start the year in Van, to saying he would finish it there.

The backup moniker only applies if he essentially takes on Schneider's prior workload. I see them more splitting games. As such, a clear starter-backup distinction is unlikely to be made. It's more a tandem.

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07-25-2012, 01:09 PM
  #280
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There is a difference in saying Lu could start the year in Van, to saying he would finish it there.

The backup moniker only applies if he essentially takes on Schneider's prior workload. I see them more splitting games. As such, a clear starter-backup distinction is unlikely to be made. It's more a tandem.
Thx you made my point for me ... I was simply trying to point out in my post that Luongo startign the year in VCR isnt a disaster from VCR's viewpoint. Luo (or possibly Schneider if someone wants to make an overpayment on a serious scale) is going to be traded before the trade deadline; I still think Fla makes sense.

Regardless, Lack needs to see some time in Vancouver this year; whether he is ready to be a back up remains to be seen. I was pointing out that he would likely cost us some points, I wasn't trying to suggest that it was a big issue.

If Luongo is here to the trade deadline, I think VCR will in the hunt for the PT>

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07-25-2012, 01:14 PM
  #281
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What you're willing to pay is dependent on how badly you need it.
If thats the case Burke would have given up what Gillis wants..

Clearly they differ in their view of Luongo's price.

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07-25-2012, 01:38 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
If thats the case Burke would have given up what Gillis wants..

Clearly they differ in their view of Luongo's price.
Burke has never been very good at evaluating the value of goalies.

See his years on the Canucks, or waiving a young Bryzgalov.

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07-25-2012, 01:43 PM
  #283
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Sure, he doesn't have to walk around being a dick to everyone but at the same time when you are unhappy with your situation it has a way of leeching out and affecting the rest of the team. I would be esp. worried about a young guy like Schneider, who is taking on the role of starter for the first time, having a guy who was formerly the incumbent now act as your backup. Does he look to the bench every time he lets in a bad goal? Does he wonder after every game whether he is going to get the next start or lose his starter's job? A scenario like that *could* (not saying it *would*) be toxic to a goalie's confidence, no matter how much of a team player Luongo is. I'm just not sure it is worth the risk in order to get an extra few points in the standings via your above-average back-up.
All of this is a *could scenario* & all speculation... I'll just go from what I've ACTUALLY seen in his time here, which is nothing but class & respect for teammates.

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07-25-2012, 02:11 PM
  #284
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What you're willing to pay is dependent on how badly you need it.
Exactly, Burke has 2 decent young goalies, so overpaying for Luongo isn't in his best interest.

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07-25-2012, 02:13 PM
  #285
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All of this is a *could scenario* & all speculation... I'll just go from what I've ACTUALLY seen in his time here, which is nothing but class & respect for teammates.
But he's right. Luongo could just sit on the bench and keep his yap shut and still negatively affect Schneider.

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07-25-2012, 02:13 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
Stop being daft. None of the teams being discussed have anyone close to Schneider's ability or record.
Don't take it personally...maybe insulting other GM's (or fanbases) intelligence because they aren't willing to deal top prospects/picks or top 6 forwards for Luongo isn't the right way to go if you don't want to recieve comments in return.

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07-25-2012, 02:16 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by CanaFan View Post
1. You can't compare the previous "Luongo = #1, Schneider = Backup" scenario where you say Luongo was a class act and extend that to a scenario where he is suddenly the back-up. He may be a class guy, but he is also a competitor and I would be A-M-A-Z-E-D if he sat back and accepted this demotion without any sour grapes. I'm amazed at all Canuck fans who say "oh but he's always been a team-first guy" but don't consider that it is easy to be a team-first guy when you are the starter, not so much as the backup.

2. Are the Canucks really that much better off picking up another 6-7 points in the regular season b/c of having a stronger back-up, rather than working on rounding out other weak spots in our line-up - spots that could be worked on presumably by the assets returned for Luongo directly or by freeing up additional cap space to pick up a cap dump any time in the season? The Canucks aren't in any danger of missing playoffs, and while Minnesota will be greatly improved this year, with maybe marginal gains in Edmonton and Colorado, I don't think the Canucks are in any danger of not winning the division either. So these 6-7 points, which come from having an above average back-up, are of little value and actually disappear once playoffs start and most teams generally live or die by their starter. I'd much rather suffer some growing pains with Lack, have 100 points in the standings instead of 107, and move this team forward in other areas, esp. the forward position.

Projecting Luongo to be our back-up next season is a mistake imo.

I am going to attempt this once more.

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Booth - Kesler - Higgins
Raymond - Schroeder - Hansen
Lapierre - Malhotra - Volpatti

Edler - Garrison
Hamhuis - Bieska
Ballard - Tanev

Luongo
Schneider

With $3 million in cap space and the availability to waive a few players to further free up salary, or perhaps a trade. What precisely does move Luongo accomplish? We could sign Doan just by sending down Kassian, waiving Alberts or dumping Raymond. Excluding that what improvements can we legitimately make? The third line is far from ideal but Vancouver as it stands would still contend for the cup with the above.

If Chicago wants to give up Bolland+ or Toronto toss over Kulemin and Kadri (Some fans in fact do). Sure, we will listen but otherwise there is no reason to accept less for cap space we do not need. Ask Detroit how useful theirs has been.

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07-25-2012, 02:18 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
But he's right. Luongo could just sit on the bench and keep his yap shut and still negatively affect Schneider.
Schneider hasn't really shown that he has any sort of mental breakdowns though. I don't think Luongo sitting on the bench will trigger that.

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07-25-2012, 02:32 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Exactly, Burke has 2 decent young goalies, so overpaying for Luongo isn't in his best interest.
Yet... Overpaying for Luongo isn't in his best interest, yet... http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...article536207/

But, I imagine getting Luongo as a "savior" to a disappointing half season (if a disappointing season is happening)... is something he'd consider or be more open to around Christmas... Or, perhaps the trade deadline, as a solution for the following season and going forward... Buy his time by following back on the "give the Luongo thing a chance to work"...

I don't think that the Leafs are a playoff team as is... and if this prediction is true, then I imagine that there will be a lot of pressure on Burke... Marginal improvement (nevermind a step back or status quo) I don't think keeps the vultures away from Burke... Unless the Leafs play excellent hockey next season (it's possible, just not likely, IMO), I think Burke becomes more willing to overpay for Luongo (or another franchise goaltender) as the season moves on... I think it's a fairly good bet that the Leafs will need excellent goaltending to be a playoff team...

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07-25-2012, 02:39 PM
  #290
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If thats the case Burke would have given up what Gillis wants..

Clearly they differ in their view of Luongo's price.
Or they are both trying to get the best deal that they can for their respective team. They may in fact be relatively close in their views of Luongo's value. Both sides though will try to get the best deal that they can. The fact that neither side has caved to the other's request by July 25th is not really indicative of anything.

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07-25-2012, 02:47 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Exactly, Burke has 2 decent young goalies, so overpaying for Luongo isn't in his best interest.
Well we all know that the term "overpaying" is totally subjective, so it's pretty difficult to debate this statement.

Vancouver fans feel like they've seen this scenario unfold before, their GM (which happens to be the same one) brought in a lot of decent young goalies but it didn't translate into an acceptable level of goaltending.

But I understand how Toronto fans feel, every season the league is good for a couple young goaltenders to break out and as a fan you want to be optimistic it will be your teams.

Nobody can say for sure whether the Leafs without Luongo will have adequate goaltending or not. Optimism and potential are justifiable for sure. Hell, there isn't a guarantee Luongo on the leafs will provide adequate goaltending either.

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07-25-2012, 02:52 PM
  #292
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Well we all know that the term "overpaying" is totally subjective, so it's pretty difficult to debate this statement.

Vancouver fans feel like they've seen this scenario unfold before, their GM (which happens to be the same one) brought in a lot of decent young goalies but it didn't translate into an acceptable level of goaltending.

But I understand how Toronto fans feel, every season the league is good for a couple young goaltenders to break out and as a fan you want to be optimistic it will be your teams.

Nobody can say for sure whether the Leafs without Luongo will have adequate goaltending or not. Optimism and potential are justifiable for sure. Hell, there isn't a guarantee Luongo on the leafs will provide adequate goaltending either.
Agreed. One thing I can say for sure is that I would not be happy as a Canuck's fan if Gillis went into next season with a combination of Eddie Lack and another goalie who put up the numbers Reimer did last year. While I'd be prepared to cut Reimer some slack because of his concussion, I'd expect Gillis to get a capable veteran who could play the majority of the games if need be. I think Burke needs to make a move here. Some Leaf fans obviously feel differently.

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07-25-2012, 02:56 PM
  #293
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Well we all know that the term "overpaying" is totally subjective, so it's pretty difficult to debate this statement.

Vancouver fans feel like they've seen this scenario unfold before, their GM (which happens to be the same one) brought in a lot of decent young goalies but it didn't translate into an acceptable level of goaltending.

But I understand how Toronto fans feel, every season the league is good for a couple young goaltenders to break out and as a fan you want to be optimistic it will be your teams.

Nobody can say for sure whether the Leafs without Luongo will have adequate goaltending or not. Optimism and potential are justifiable for sure. Hell, there isn't a guarantee Luongo on the leafs will provide adequate goaltending either.
Wise words. It's kind of a lose/lose situation. Despite the posturing on both sides we all know that Leafs can't go into the season with Reimer/Scrivens (too big a gamble) and the Canucks can't start the season with Luongo (that well is poisoned, he may be a pro but he's also human). Sadly for both sides Toronto wouldn't be getting the young stud goalie they want (even if they would be getting a huge upgrade) and the Canucks wouldn't get anything close to what Luongo would be worth under a different contract and situation.

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07-25-2012, 03:00 PM
  #294
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Agreed. One thing I can say for sure is that I would not be happy as a Canuck's fan if Gillis went into next season with a combination of Eddie Lack and another goalie who put up the numbers Reimer did last year. While I'd be prepared to cut Reimer some slack because of his concussion, I'd expect Gillis to get a capable veteran who could play the majority of the games if need be. I think Burke needs to make a move here. Some Leaf fans obviously feel differently.
Actually, most fans feel exactly the same. It's just there is a large difference between a "capable vet" and Luongo. By that i mean, most of us would like a 1-2 year vet tosee what we have in Reimer/Scrivens. By taking Luongo we will have pretty much written those guys off. I was/am one of the guys who wanted/wants Luongo here. BUT, if the price is a top 6 forward/top 4 D plus, the Leafs simply can't afford it. I've read some posts were Van fans want a center replacement while Kesler recovers...the Leafs can't afford that.

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07-25-2012, 03:06 PM
  #295
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Actually, most fans feel exactly the same. It's just there is a large difference between a "capable vet" and Luongo. By that i mean, most of us would like a 1-2 year vet tosee what we have in Reimer/Scrivens. By taking Luongo we will have pretty much written those guys off. I was/am one of the guys who wanted/wants Luongo here. BUT, if the price is a top 6 forward/top 4 D plus, the Leafs simply can't afford it. I've read some posts were Van fans want a center replacement while Kesler recovers...the Leafs can't afford that.
Fair enough and a very balanced post.
My main point was that I wouldn't be happy as a Leaf's fan going with the status quo. If you can get that veteran goalie then that may be a viable option. I'm not sure that goalie is available but I suspect that Burke is hoping that one comes on the market. Both sides will try to outwait the other in hopes that one of them will give in. These are two pretty stubborn dudes though! . We may be on Luongo 200 thread before one of them blinks!

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07-25-2012, 03:10 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
I am going to attempt this once more.

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Booth - Kesler - Higgins
Raymond - Schroeder - Hansen
Lapierre - Malhotra - Volpatti

Edler - Garrison
Hamhuis - Bieska
Ballard - Tanev

Luongo
Schneider

With $3 million in cap space and the availability to waive a few players to further free up salary, or perhaps a trade. What precisely does move Luongo accomplish? We could sign Doan just by sending down Kassian, waiving Alberts or dumping Raymond. Excluding that what improvements can we legitimately make? The third line is far from ideal but Vancouver as it stands would still contend for the cup with the above.

If Chicago wants to give up Bolland+ or Toronto toss over Kulemin and Kadri (Some fans in fact do). Sure, we will listen but otherwise there is no reason to accept less for cap space we do not need. Ask Detroit how useful theirs has been.
This is a great point you make about additional cap space and asking Det. I totally agree. Your lines look pretty good. Maybe Schroeder is interchangeable, but if nothing changes looks quite realistic.

Very good post!

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07-25-2012, 03:15 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Exactly, Burke has 2 decent young goalies, so overpaying for Luongo isn't in his best interest.
If its playoffs or bust then you make the move, if not then you don't.

All of this could have been solved with Vokoun. Not giving up a 7th rounder + a 2yr/4mil contract for him is unforgivable.

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07-25-2012, 03:17 PM
  #298
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If its playoffs or bust then you make the move, if not then you don't. All of this could have been solved with Vokoun. Not giving up a 7th rounder + a 2yr/4mil contract for him is unforgivable.
That's what leads me to believe that Luongo is Burke's target. Of course it's possible that Vokoun was approached by the Leafs but only wanted to play for a contender given his age.

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07-25-2012, 03:20 PM
  #299
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Fair enough and a very balanced post.
My main point was that I wouldn't be happy as a Leaf's fan going with the status quo. If you can get that veteran goalie then that may be a viable option. I'm not sure that goalie is available but I suspect that Burke is hoping that one comes on the market. Both sides will try to outwait the other in hopes that one of them will give in. These are two pretty stubborn dudes though! . We may be on Luongo 200 thread before one of them blinks!
That's why Burke was inquiring about Bernier - at this point, if Gillis really is asking for the moon for Luongo, most fans would rather pay a cheaper price for Bernier and go into the season with a Reimer/Bernier 1A/1B situation and let them fight it out.

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07-25-2012, 03:25 PM
  #300
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With $3 million in cap space and the availability to waive a few players to further free up salary, or perhaps a trade. What precisely does move Luongo accomplish? We could sign Doan just by sending down Kassian, waiving Alberts or dumping Raymond. Excluding that what improvements can we legitimately make? The third line is far from ideal but Vancouver as it stands would still contend for the cup with the above.
Probably wouldn't need to make any roster moves, with Kesler's $5 mil on LTIR until probably November... I understand that Gillis said that Kesler may be ready for the start of the year - but I choose to not believe it, or believe that Kesler will be rushed considering what happened last year ... And, according to history with this team, in the course of the year, there's bound to be significant money on LTIR throughout the season... I think the Canucks could both keep Luongo and acquire Doan (knock on wood) quite easily until about November or December without making any roster moves - even minor ones...

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