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[NYR/CBJ] Rick Nash+Steven Delisle+3rd for Dubinsky, Anisimov, Erixon, 1st (part III)

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Old
07-24-2012, 10:03 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Qvist View Post
Except of course you could argue that there's not actually a legitimate top 6 forward in their top 6. Or at least not anyone who meets that description by much of a margin.
Most of them have top 6 talent, and are still on the upswing in their career. Dubinksy has led a team in scoring. It's really more how they play, not who they are as players.

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07-24-2012, 10:09 AM
  #152
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Honestly I don't think Nash had more value than this. Maybe another pick would've been nice but Nash has a terrible contract with an NTC. There wasn't a lot for Howson to work with.

With that said, Howson should be fired asap. I don't see how this is a better deal than the one prior the trade deadline.

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07-24-2012, 10:14 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by tyratoku View Post
And if Erixon gets his head out of his ***, a Top-4 of Johnson(who i'm guessing is going to be the new Captain?), Wiz, Murray, and Erixon is not bad AT ALL. Very bright future on the blue line for Columbus all of a sudden.
What's great about this statement is that it completely ignores Tyutin-Nikitin.
http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/5/30/top-defensive-pairings
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The Rangers success came in part from their top pairing of Dan Girardi and Ryan McDonagh handling the league's toughest job far better than a comparable pairing like Calgary's Jay Bouwmeester and Chris Butler. You could make a case for them standing shoulder to shoulder with the league's best top pairings: Shea Weber and Ryan Suter in Nashville, Nicklas Lidstrom and Ian White in Detroit and, strangely enough, Fedor Tyutin and Nikita Nikitin in Columbus.

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07-24-2012, 10:16 AM
  #154
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I honestly cannot believe how overrated Rick Nash is. Obviously that is an opinion, the same way that Rangers fans now think he is great and stole him from Columbus is an opinion.

However, lets look at the FACTS: Rick Nash had 59 points last year. Dubinsky, who had a horrible season, had 34 points and Anisimov, who is just 24 years old, had 36 points. Both players are just one season removed from over 40 points. Technically the Rangers are losing points in this deal.

Second, no matter how much people want to believe Rick Nash is a superstar in the NHL and his point totals are lowered by playing on a bad team. Consider this FACT: At the age of 28 Rick Nash's highest ever point total is 79 points. For comparison purposes, John Tavares at the age of 21 is just coming off an 81 point season while playing on an awful team. Not only that, Tavares makes the players around him (Matt Moulson, PA Parenteau) better, while Rick Nash makes nobody around him better. If Rick Nash is a superstar, what is John Tavares?

Feel free to disagree, but in my opinion, the Rangers gave up a good second line winger, a good third line center, a top defense prospect and a first round pick for a 60 point scorer.

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07-24-2012, 10:17 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by tony d View Post
The Rangers won this deal hands down. Getting a potential 40 goal scorer without giving up Del Zotto or Callahan screams win win to me. Columbus will regret this trade methinks.
I'll definitely almost guarantee that if you look back at this deal 5 years from now, the return for CBJ will be quite decent too. And a ton more than most other teams has received when dealing big stars going back to like JJ being sent to Washington, Thornton to SJ, Hossa to Pittsburg, Kova to NJD among many others.

Brandon Dubinsky has for some reason been ridiculously underrated at this place. In a bigger role, I know that he would return to being a 50-60 pts forward. That means the avg team only will have 2 players scoring more than him, and de facto makes him a top 3 scoring forward on the avg team.

On top of that, Dubinsky got a heck of a attitude. He will always stand up for his teammates. He might be the biggest reason, even bigger than Callahan, for the chemistry that we in NY have in our room. He is a very competetive player and that will undoubtedly help a team like Columbus.

Artem Anisimov is a very good hockey player. His only weakness is that he still haven't really been able to find his "niche" if you get what I mean. He isn't a playmaker/sniper/shutdown center, but just very strong overall. Many forget that he was the first line center for the Ranger team that made the PO's two seasons ago. Its definitely possible that he never will take that last step, which for AA will be finding a mean to constantly get productions from, but if he did he would instantly be right up there with someone like David Krejci.

People also forget very fast just how weak those rosters were that Anisimov and Dubinsky worked with. They very rarely over their careers so far played with good linemates.

Tim Erixon could definitely take a big step in a hurry. A ton was in place last season already, but his body just wasn't mature enough. He skates well forward and backward, but when he was forced to scramble to recover at the NHL level he just wasn't ready.

So many posters at this place threated "proposals" like this one that got done like it was on par with what like -- no offense intended -- you see from like Toronto fans every now and then. I definitely don't think that's the case.

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07-24-2012, 10:18 AM
  #156
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With that said, Howson should be fired asap. I don't see how this is a better deal than the one prior the trade deadline.
Howson is p. terrible but this deal at the deadline probably would have included NYR's 2012 1st, no? and the prevailing opinion seems to be that the 2013 draft is much stronger, so there's that.

but yeah i agree with the whole post. it's too tough to get a great return when you only have a few teams you're allowed to deal with.

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07-24-2012, 10:20 AM
  #157
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The Rangers got an established, consistent 30+ goal scorer. Albeit one who needs to pot at least 40 to justify that contract. It deepens our offense and gives us more balance in our top-six.

However, we lost a couple versatile pieces. Two very good two-way players who can line up at center, or on the LW. Anisimov can be a very good 3rd line C in the NHL if he can improve on face-offs, and Dubinsky might benefit from getting out of NYC and into a market with less scrutiny. There's a good chance he ends up as a 25-30 goal scorer if everything falls into place. Also provides some added grit and protection for some of the kids coming up through that system.

Erixon is the real wild card. I happen to think he's going to be flipped to another team for some more help up front. The Jackets have a very solid blue line with more kids in the pipe. Erixon is close to NHL-ready, so there is probably a team who could use him more than the Jackets. Tampa Bay, Detroit, maybe Nashville if Weber leaves. Unfortunately two of them are in the same division.

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07-24-2012, 10:29 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Satan'sIsland81 View Post
I honestly cannot believe how overrated Rick Nash is. Obviously that is an opinion, the same way that Rangers fans now think he is great and stole him from Columbus is an opinion.

However, lets look at the FACTS: Rick Nash had 59 points last year. Dubinsky, who had a horrible season, had 34 points and Anisimov, who is just 24 years old, had 36 points. Both players are just one season removed from over 40 points. Technically the Rangers are losing points in this deal.


Second, no matter how much people want to believe Rick Nash is a superstar in the NHL and his point totals are lowered by playing on a bad team. Consider this FACT: At the age of 28 Rick Nash's highest ever point total is 79 points. For comparison purposes, John Tavares at the age of 21 is just coming off an 81 point season while playing on an awful team. Not only that, Tavares makes the players around him (Matt Moulson, PA Parenteau) better, while Rick Nash makes nobody around him better. If Rick Nash is a superstar, what is John Tavares?

Feel free to disagree, but in my opinion, the Rangers gave up a good second line winger, a good third line center, a top defense prospect and a first round pick for a 60 point scorer.
I dont think you are looking at this correctly. They are not losing points anywhere. If anything you can argue they will get more points out of the deal. You removed two players and replaced them with one player who will probably match the two players totals. Also, you need to consider another player on the team will be used to relpace one of Dubinsky or Anisimov.....therefore putting up the points for one of the two players removed. Effectively, Nash and roster player X will have a larger total in points that Anisimov and Dubinsky did together.

Also, Not sure why you feel the need to ask about what JT is. nobody has argued that he isnt a great player. Not sure if anybody compared Nash or JT either. However, isnt one a winger and the other a center? Quality Centers make other players around them better......no? So you really arent comparing apples to apples. You are only comparing the title "superstar".

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07-24-2012, 10:29 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Satan'sIsland81 View Post
Consider this FACT: At the age of 28 Rick Nash's highest ever point total is 79 points. For comparison purposes, John Tavares at the age of 21 is just coming off an 81 point season while playing on an awful team.
I've never considered this point of view and thought it was interesting so I want to highlight it.

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07-24-2012, 10:34 AM
  #160
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Nash has never had the talent or the pressure to up his game to next level.

With Torts constantly on him and Richards setting him up , I fully expect nash to have his best nhl season, even if the rangers play a style that hurts your numbers.

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07-24-2012, 10:40 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by deekortiz3 View Post
I've never considered this point of view and thought it was interesting so I want to highlight it.
And I'll highlight this as well : Nash has been to 1 Playoff series, 2009 were swept by the Red Wings in 2009.

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07-24-2012, 10:50 AM
  #162
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And I'll highlight this as well : Nash has been to 1 Playoff series, 2009 were swept by the Red Wings in 2009.
And what exactly does this prove?

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07-24-2012, 10:54 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Satan'sIsland81 View Post
I honestly cannot believe how overrated Rick Nash is. Obviously that is an opinion, the same way that Rangers fans now think he is great and stole him from Columbus is an opinion.

However, lets look at the FACTS: Rick Nash had 59 points last year. Dubinsky, who had a horrible season, had 34 points and Anisimov, who is just 24 years old, had 36 points. Both players are just one season removed from over 40 points. Technically the Rangers are losing points in this deal.

Second, no matter how much people want to believe Rick Nash is a superstar in the NHL and his point totals are lowered by playing on a bad team. Consider this FACT: At the age of 28 Rick Nash's highest ever point total is 79 points. For comparison purposes, John Tavares at the age of 21 is just coming off an 81 point season while playing on an awful team. Not only that, Tavares makes the players around him (Matt Moulson, PA Parenteau) better, while Rick Nash makes nobody around him better. If Rick Nash is a superstar, what is John Tavares?

Feel free to disagree, but in my opinion, the Rangers gave up a good second line winger, a good third line center, a top defense prospect and a first round pick for a 60 point scorer.

So Dubinsky and Anisimov had down years but Rick Nash didn't? It must have been easy to play and produce in such a comfortable enviornment knowing you are on the block since January.

Also why even bring Tavares into this discussion. It shows that you have a chip on your shoulder.....

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07-24-2012, 10:56 AM
  #165
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Lets hope that there's no such thing as karma, because there may be a very slim chance that 2-3 years from now the star player in this trade will struggle to a point where people will create a "www.didnashscore.com" and track his first goal. Then on the other end of the spectrum you'll have a no-name defensemen prospect who ends up being a up and coming top 4 and be labeled as the actual steal of the trade.

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07-24-2012, 10:58 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Satan'sIsland81 View Post
For comparison purposes, John Tavares at the age of 21 is just coming off an 81 point season while playing on an awful team.
So what you're saying is that Tavares has nowhere to go but down at this point in his career?

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07-24-2012, 10:59 AM
  #167
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I really have no idea what you are trying to say here.
He's saying people were treating that proposal like they treat some of the silly leafs proposals that you can see here sometimes.

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07-24-2012, 11:29 AM
  #169
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I'll definitely almost guarantee that if you look back at this deal 5 years from now, the return for CBJ will be quite decent too.
I tend to lean this way as well. I don't think this deal is as lopsided as people think.

A lot of things work against Nash too, especially the pressure of playing in NY.

I understand you make this deal 99 times out of 100, the help to the Ranger PP alone is worth it.

But I like what Columbus is putting together, especially on D, were their core is pretty nice.

Wisniewski, James
Tyutin, Fedor
Johnson, Jack
Aucoin, Adrian (not young but a good d-man)
Nikitin, Nikita
Erixon, Tim
Moore, John

Plus number two overall Ryan Murray who will play this season in the top four I am sure.

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07-24-2012, 11:31 AM
  #170
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What's great about this statement is that it completely ignores Tyutin-Nikitin.
http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/5/30/top-defensive-pairings
I'll be completely honest, I forgot about them. That just supports what I said though, that Columbus really is building from the Blue line, and their future is bright. Murray could play this year, no? Erixon might be another year out, or he could play on the bottom pairing.

Something like:

Nikitin - Tyutin
Johnson - Murray/Erixon
Wiz - Murray/Erixon

Would work well, IMO. Rolling all three lines evenly or close to it. Playing Murray and Erixon each with a veteran could really help their game. Or you could possibly send Murray back to juniors to maybe work on his offensive game, while putting Wiz and Johnson together, and then pair Erixon with a low level defender?

Any way you put it, I think Columbus has a good blue line now, which is more than what could be said for most of last season. Congrats.

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07-24-2012, 11:39 AM
  #171
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Lets hope that there's no such thing as karma, because there may be a very slim chance that 2-3 years from now the star player in this trade will struggle to a point where people will create a "www.didnashscore.com" and track his first goal. Then on the other end of the spectrum you'll have a no-name defensemen prospect who ends up being a up and coming top 4 and be labeled as the actual steal of the trade.


You're really comparing Nash to Gomez? Nash has more talent in his nut sack than Gomez has in his entire body.

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07-24-2012, 11:56 AM
  #172
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You're really comparing Nash to Gomez? Nash has more talent in his nut sack than Gomez has in his entire body.
Yup, because we all have the superpower of hindsight at the time of the trade. When Gomez was traded his talent did dip but was still considered a fairly good player. And also, maybe hence the reason why I said "very slim"?

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07-24-2012, 11:58 AM
  #173
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Interesting

The most significant question will be how is he going to fit in to the Rangers "defense first" way of doing things. He has never been forced to be conscious of his defensive game, so this could be a problem for the Rangers. In the end, in terms of value, I like this deal for the Blue Jackets. It gives them a balance of players that can contribute now, and players to build with in the future.

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07-24-2012, 11:58 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Satan'sIsland81 View Post
However, lets look at the FACTS: Rick Nash had 59 points last year. Dubinsky, who had a horrible season, had 34 points and Anisimov, who is just 24 years old, had 36 points. Both players are just one season removed from over 40 points. Technically the Rangers are losing points in this deal.
Technically? I read this kind of thing all the time and it always weirds me out. Nash + one other person need to make up for the points and defense lost by trading both Dubinsky and Anisimov.

You can't judge a player soley on points produced. It's such a complicated matter: quality of minutes, quality of opponents, quality of linemates, playing time in general, etc. that you can not simplify it down to "80 points is higher than 60, so this was a bad trade". That is willfully ignoring far too many variables.

Sather is banking on Nash producing more quality in less minutes, while hoping the production of one of Dubinsky / Anisimov can be replaced. It's a gamble, but not a terrible one.

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07-24-2012, 12:04 PM
  #175
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I could see Dubi coming in and becoming the captin and turing out to be a player for the BJ's like Ladd is for th peg. I am not a fan of either of these teams but I do not think it is as lopsidded as some are making it out to be. Only time will tell

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